The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

I haven't looked at the chart from Researcher, but would like to submit a couple of general comments.

I agree with you Sandstone -- or is it Morin I should be agreeing with -- that mutual receptions very often aggravate difficulties rather than "make it all better". I have seen that in too many charts to ignore it.

Regarding the psychopath/sociopath/character-defective personality (these are all terms used at one time or another in psychiatry for the same condition, which goes to show the very vague conception of just what the "symptoms" of the psychopath are)... The best we can do with astrology is to see the symptoms in the chart, and when they seem preponderant judge that this personality "leans toward" a psychopathic state to a greater or lesser degree. It seems pretty generally agreed among people who study "abnormal psychology" that roughly 5% of the general population -- anywhere and everywhere -- is psychopathic.

Some of the usual features of the psychopathic personality are:

1. Emotional Detachment. Barriers to intimate relationship.
2. Total lack of feelings of remorse or guilt. The personality is incapable of empathy.
3. Extreme ego-centricity. Thoughts are wholly centered on the self and its interests. Others are seen as objects to be used and discarded, as simple obstacles to be removed, etc. Narcissism accompanies the condition.
4. Highly manipulative tendencies. Whatever means are available to attain the desired ends are acceptable to the psychopath, no qualms. The psychopath is generally charming, and knows how to tell you what you want to hear. Implied here is a high sensitivity to the desires and motivations of others, an innate ability to quickly find the "buttons" that will permit manipulation of another.

When I look at my own chart, I see a psychopath. But I'm a gentle, loving, caring, altruistic, self-sacrificing guy. Just ask me. I'll tell you whatever you want to hear. Quite seriously, my own chart shows many of the qualities of the psychopath, but my outlook on life and behavior do not follow the pattern. So what is it in my chart that "deters" the antisocial elements from taking command of the personality?

So in diagnosing this or any other condition, we have to be cautious, carefully weigh all factors and see where that leads our judgment. A horoscope shows "potentials". It generally shows the "probability, or likelihood" of those potentials manifesting in a certain way, but does not give us a locked-in certainty.

On the other hand, I am always amazed by the intimate and highly detailed portrait of a person to be seen in a horoscope.

Researcher.....If you suspect this guy is psychopathic......trust your gut. You don't need a chart. If you are strongly masochistic, perhaps you've found your soul-mate. If not, take reasonable precautions to protect yourself without becoming fearful or worried-anxious. Fear is a horrible and very powerful enemy; it paralyzes us and deadens us to life.

I'm very proud to say that I do have plenty of psychopathic tendencies....and people love me for it! That beautiful triple conjunction of Pluto-Saturn-MC in Scorpio (all opposing my Moon) is the supreme psychopath.

Judy, the difference between Hitler and his contemporaries (those born on or about his birthday) lies in his time/place of birth. I use the Jones patterns heavily... I study the pattern and structure of a chart in depth before I move on toward an interpretation...and in Hitler we find the "Splay" pattern (the misfit, the special genius, etc) with Uranus as the Reins planet....the "controlling energy" within that psychological pattern. His time and place of birth put Uranus conjunct the Ascendant, in the 12th, and the Uranus-Mercury opposition squarely on the horizon, and this is what brings the aspect to such power and prominence in his person. In other words, it is this Accidental dignity that imbues him with the power; the positions of the other planets, by house, are strong contributing factors. I do not mean to say that the whole Hitler phenomenon was caused only by Uranus. It is the whole gestalt of the chart, which is defined for each individual by house structure.

Other folks born on his birthday have the same Essential makeup, and have strong tendencies toward the psychopathic condition. But not all psychopaths come to public attention. Some quietly live out a whole lifetime without major problems in the world. It was Hitler's house structure that brought him forward in the world. If we accept the 5% rate of psychopaths in the general population, then probably someone who lives in your block, or apartment house, is a psychopath. And you probably would not recognize this person as being a psychopath even if you know him/her, because one of the principal traits of the condition is the ability to hide it from others. Because you do not think like they do (i.e., totally self-centered and isolated from the feelings or needs of others), it never occurs to you that someone does think this way.

A rather scary, but I am convinced wholly true fact.....all corporations display psychopathic behavior.....and our world is controlled and led into the future by corporations.

Thank you Sandstone,

Very interesting to know I kept talking to him as I was intrigue by him and still am, but not a good idea! He said to me he was a very cold person and only thing he loves is his cat, that was on the very last occasion I see him. He came across as a very warm person, I never understood him at all, he once said how everyone should experience being stabbed and what a good feeling this is and otherthings that I should not repeat, but shocking. It never fitted with his overall charator.....oops got to quickly go , i'll come back later!

sandstone said:

hi researcher,

i just looked at this chart in a superficial manner, but it reminded me of something i was just reading the other day in one of morins books, a well known astrologer from france from the 1600's.. he discusses the idea of mutual reception between planets in signs each other rule and discounts some of the popular theories around mutual reception.. in this chart example you offered we see saturn in leo - same position as hitler, a generational position in itself, in opposition to sun in aquarius.. both positions are in their fall and they are in an opposition aspect.. according to morin neither placement is helped by this mutual reception, but instead are only hindered further.. another example of this in your friends chart and which morin also discusses is moon in aries with mars in cancer.. according to morin there is no benefit from either position in its fall.. your friends chart has an unduly number of planets in very weak cellestial - sign) state..

we also note the mercury square uranus - hitler had the opposition, and we note how this square in your friends chart is on the angles, as the opposition was in hitlers chart.. both charts have a greater emphasis on the fixed mode, but whereas hitler had some mutability to his chart - very little to none if you exclude the outer planets, your friend also has none even when we include the outer planets.. interesting chart and thanks for sharing.. perhaps greybeard would like to comment on your friends chart..

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Documentary Examines "The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcuhhJ1BaMk&feature=related

"Defining psychopathy, the disorder of the psychopath" - Taken from the book "The Shrink from Planet Zob: Psychiatry for a Mad World" by psychologist and philosopher Jake Lyron. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpjUVkx5EMA

Allan Gregg in conversation with Paula Caplan, psychologist and author of "They Say You're Crazy - How The World's Most Powerful Psychiatrists Decide Who's Normal." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKbybLM12yc&feature=related

I don't see psychopathy as a mental disorder. I think it's more of an adaptation to the environment & circumstances that a person faces.

I remember the first time I saw a beggar & my dad shooed her away, I cried a bucketfull of tears. I really wanted to help people back then and lived in a sort of utopian world.(Neptune on the asc ) I'm very different now. I see a beggar & most of the time feel no sympathy. Someone needs something : I say I don't have it. I see one man on the street hitting another : I smile to myself & walk away. That's how I adapted when I left home for higher studies. I began to see the world in a different light. I became a person I never thought I would be. 1/2th of my ethics, empathy, sympathy, integrity & remorse died. The future of the remaining half is uncertain.

scorpittarian said:

I don't see psychopathy as a mental disorder. I think it's more of an adaptation to the environment & circumstances that a person faces.

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I absolutely agree. On top of that, I strongly believe that controlled and/or hidden psychopathy bestows upon an individual great benefits that allow him/herself to better deal with society and human nature in general. I'm pretty certain that's an absolute truth.

greybeard said:

Other folks born on his birthday have the same Essential makeup, and have strong tendencies toward the psychopathic condition. But not all psychopaths come to public attention. Some quietly live out a whole lifetime without major problems in the world. It was Hitler's house structure that brought him forward in the world. If we accept the 5% rate of psychopaths in the general population, then probably someone who lives in your block, or apartment house, is a psychopath. And you probably would not recognize this person as being a psychopath even if you know him/her, because one of the principal traits of the condition is the ability to hide it from others. Because you do not think like they do (i.e., totally self-centered and isolated from the feelings or needs of others), it never occurs to you that someone does think this way.

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Thanks for responding. Maybe because I really CAN'T think the way he did, it's that much harder for me to read his chart properly, to wrap my head around it, differentiate between what I see in the chart and what he did. It's truly a blessing that most of the 5% don't have the opportunity to wield such power.

greybeard said:

A rather scary, but I am convinced wholly true fact.....all corporations display psychopathic behavior.....and our world is controlled and led into the future by corporations.

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I agree, by your definition of "psychopathic". Maybe the people who work at such corporations forget that they are people... they are simply greedy components of an inhuman force.

scorpittarian said:

I don't see psychopathy as a mental disorder. I think it's more of an adaptation to the environment & circumstances that a person faces.

I remember the first time I saw a beggar & my dad shooed her away, I cried a bucketfull of tears. I really wanted to help people back then and lived in a sort of utopian world.(Neptune on the asc ) I'm very different now. I see a beggar & most of the time feel no sympathy. Someone needs something : I say I don't have it. I see one man on the street hitting another : I smile to myself & walk away. That's how I adapted when I left home for higher studies. I began to see the world in a different light. I became a person I never thought I would be. 1/2th of my ethics, empathy, sympathy, integrity & remorse died. The future of the remaining half is uncertain.

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I don't see what you have described as psychopathy. The impression I get is that reigning in your empathy is something you have learned to do, or developed under a certain sequence of circumstances. Unless you feel no empathy for anyone ever, then you're nowhere near being a psychopath.

I believe that most people have a selective empathic function, that favours blood relatives and close friends first; less connected people don't trigger it so hard, if at all. Situational effects may also trigger feelings of empathy, or even antipathy.

Being able to walk past a beggar without breaking down in tears does not qualify a person as a psychopath.

I think that many/most people do need to reign in empathy, to an extent, in order to protect themselves from constantly being overwhelmed from painful feelings.

Hyper empathic people seem very fragile, and have a hard time functioning in the 'real' world.

Most people seem to have an empathic capacity that is somewhere between the extreme of no empathy for anything ever, and empathy for all things all at once all the time.

scorpittarian said:

I don't see psychopathy as a mental disorder. I think it's more of an adaptation to the environment & circumstances that a person faces.

I remember the first time I saw a beggar & my dad shooed her away, I cried a bucketfull of tears. I really wanted to help people back then and lived in a sort of utopian world.(Neptune on the asc ) I'm very different now. I see a beggar & most of the time feel no sympathy. Someone needs something : I say I don't have it. I see one man on the street hitting another : I smile to myself & walk away. That's how I adapted when I left home for higher studies. I began to see the world in a different light. I became a person I never thought I would be. 1/2th of my ethics, empathy, sympathy, integrity & remorse died. The future of the remaining half is uncertain.

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I see your point, but...
1) your point in part depends on one's definition of psychotic behavior, which passing a beggar on the street or staying out of a street fight are not, IMO... more like benign neglect or just keeping yourself safe, which you probably ought to forgive yourself for. And,
2) there's a world of difference between the action you describe and ordering the death of millions as part of a "final solution".

Judy_AzVirgo said:

Thanks for responding. Maybe because I really CAN'T think the way he did, it's that much harder for me to read his chart properly, to wrap my head around it, differentiate between what I see in the chart and what he did. It's truly a blessing that most of the 5% don't have the opportunity to wield such power.

I agree, by your definition of "psychopathic". Maybe the people who work at such corporations forget that they are people... they are simply greedy components of an inhuman force.

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I must say, I totally agree with you on this. I have encountered what may be termed one step back from psychopath, narcissist, it only takes one bit of evolution to become psychopathic. Nothing to be proud of whatsoever. This one I know, cannot hold down a job, has meglomaniac ambitions, very cold and totally detached from their emotions. They leave behind a string of angry, frustrated people who have dealt with them. Luckily they have money, or they probably be out of accomodation, due to lack of money/stability. Mars in Leo for this one amongst other aspects, first house Pluto conjunct north node. I won't list it all or post the chart. Ambitions of power to overcome a severe lack of true and genuine self love and self worth.

Right, Neptune... certainly nothing to be proud of. Sounds like your guy is quite a loser -- probably fortunate for all that he can't hold down a job. Has he had any counseling... probably not, if megalomania is a factor.

I think you bring up an excellent point about lack of self worth. Most bios of Hitler mention this trait in his early life; he was quite embarrassed about his family, their poverty, and so on. Maybe if you feel you have nothing else, then the Self is all there is. Not excusing anyone... just saying.

*I'm not at all trying to prove that I'm a psychopath. *

I'm a non-religious person & was previously an atheist. When I moved abroad, I got to know of this riot in which 2,000 people of the minority religion were massacred & guess what I said "they deserved it!" I was truly content with no personal gain! How can someone who was brought up in a multi-religious family with no strong religious background have such strong feelings against a particular group? I step aside if I see an ant & here I was happy that 2,000 died. Such animosity against any religion wasn't natural to me. It's something that I picked up from those around me in a year's time.

Brutal slaughter's what happens in communal & regional violence all the time. I see degrees of psychopathy often. Over here, they are ever ready to pick up their mighty swords to slaughter the other person. I hear small children say such things. They believe that the bullet is the solution. It's a world where only the fittest survive.

And how would you classify soldiers, butchers, etc?

Firstly I would like to diffientiate between Sociopaths and Psychopaths. Psychopaths are born not created whereas Sociopaths usually have traumatic childhoods. Psychopaths are smart and charming whereas Sociopaths are like the guy that gives you the creeps even if sometimes your not sure why. Psychopaths are smart enough to develop covers i.e can have job and/or wife and kids (not that they really love their families) whereas Sociopaths can't. Ironically Sociopaths do not prey on those close like family and friends whereas Psychopaths think everyone is fair game. Both have antisocial personality disorder and like all personality disorders it is resistant to treatment.

I agree that you need to look at the whole chart for ANY reading but don't really think that an Astrologer can pick up on someone being a psychopath unless they had previous knowledge because every part of a chart can be expressed positively or negatively.

I am not going to discuss Hitlers chart because t was already done well here I am briefly going to look at three other charts and make some random comments.

Osama Bin Laden has an Aries Rising-warrior with Sun Moon and Mercury in Pisces in the 12th House Karmic Sacrifice (unfortunately he choose to sacrifice other people's life the worst aspect of Pisces possible) squaring Sagittarius Saturn which could show closed minded towards other cultures lack of ability to empathise or understand foriegners he also had a stern education (brain washing). Taurus Mars in Second House is able to create War to earn money and build a following. Neptune in eight in Scorpio he really was deluded in ideas of death, power, joint resources. Mars and Jupiter are both detriment giving them the worst expression possible. He wasn't lucky and Mars expressed the worst in Taurus (stubbon, unforgiving). Uranus and Pluto in Leo fame through creating death as an unusual joyful activity.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Bin_Laden,_Osama

Ivan Milat "the backpacker murderer"
Pluto in 10th in Leo. He is famous for murdering people and he enjoyed it.
He had a weird relationship with his mother (maybe she died when he was young?), and he wasn't married (could have had a nasty divorce) Pluto opposes Venus in the 4th and Venus squaring moon in the 7th. Bad relationships with women. Mars and Mercury in Sag (killed people mainly from other countries) Squaring Jupiter and Neptune in the 11th (he was bad luck for tourists but he got caught because of a backpacker Paul Onion that acted humanitarianly by testifying and donating the reward money to charity. He also has the Sun in the 2nd House in Capricorn had those three planets (mars, mercury and sun) could have made him wealthy had not the oppositions with Jupiter and Neptune. Saturn in the 8th House opposing Sun in second he had an unhealthy relationship with his father.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Milat,_Ivan

Jeffrey Dahmer
Libra Rising learns to be charming
Pluto squares Sun, Mercury and Venus maybe explains why he was able to talk guys into coming up to his room where he murdered them.
Neptune in 1st in Scorpio deluded around death.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Dahmer,_Jeffrey

One thing I thought was how different all these charts were so different. That one thing can't demonstrate a bad person I especially found it hard to interpret Jeffery Dahmer's chart .

Here's a chart of a known sociopath. He is suspected of being a serial killer of ex-girlfriends.

http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cg...gif&res=100&va=&cid=5c2filesz1B8n-u1336100444

scorpittarian

you have me curious..

where is "over here"?

kittybaby

i know there are 3 or 4 charts for osama bin laden.. didn't look at which one you isolated..

kittybaby - "psychopath" and "sociopath" are synonyms. There is no differentiation between them in terms of clinical diagnosis which, these days, would tend to be antisocial personality disorder. There is a suggestion with ADP that there is some difference in brain structure wherein the normal pathways that regulate such things as fear, risk-taking and stimulation are impaired so that the person a) does not feel fear like other people b) is more prone to take risks than other people and c) needs more stimulation than other people. There is a further suggestion that such people are "emotionally colour-blind" in that they cannot feel, nor understand, the range of emotions people without ADP can experience and therefore that they lack empathy with their fellow man. Some people are able to channel this into - for instance - success in business where a certain ruthlessness is an advantage. However, upbringing and environment seem to be important in shaping the individual's response to their neurobiological deficits.

Whether any of this can be discerned in the chart is the subject of Liz Greene's excellent book "The Dark Of The Soul", wherein she suggests it may be hinted at by (among other things) lunar impairments. If we look at Dahmer's chart, for instance, we see a Moon in Aries, squared by Saturn which could hint at the rather egotistical, emotionally buttoned-up person he so clearly was. In others, this may not have been so toxic, but given his parenting, the emotional climate in which he grew, and his subsequent experiences in life, it went to the bad.

It's very interesting that Neptune is so prominent in his chart, given the role that his personal drug use, alcohol and drugging men into unconsciousness played in his crimes.

Another fascinating book about the astrology of serial murderers is "Destined for Murder" by Sandra Harrison Young and Edna Rowland.

I find this all utterly fascinating - what a great thread!

Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part II

Thank you greybeard for an absolutely fascinating pair of posts. Beautifully written as well. Are these going to be (or have they been) published anywhere?

Re: The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part II

Of course. They were published on http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/.

Thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed them, and hope they stimulate folks to better and better things in astrology.

I haven't read Liz Greene's book and didn't know anyone was writing about the psychopathic personality in the horoscope. Good for her. I haven't studied the subject in horoscopes either; the thread was spontaneously inspired by what I saw on some other thread. I think we could do well by putting a little elbow grease into 5% of the population. In other words we should learn to recognize the potential in a chart.

One of the problems here is that the psychiatric profession itself is vague on symptoms and causes. It is known these folks -- the psychopaths -- are virtually immune to "treatment;" they don't respond, they manipulate, they are superior to others, etc. Another problem is that most of them are never publicly recognized. It is a very small percentage that commit heinous crimes. Nevertheless, we astrologers -- especially if we are consulting astrologers -- can and should learn to recognize the "tell-tale signs" of an inclination in this direction. Of course, what to do with the knowledge is also a challenge.

Anyway, I thought it worth discussing. If nothing else the study of this and other "personality types" will make better astrologers of us.

I like this thread so far but I wanted to contribute a small reminder on this lazy sunday.

Re: the argument that many people born on the same day (at the same time) with virtually identical charts...

I have to remind people that no matter how much we can use astrology to retcon people's lives and describe them and their historical motivations based on their transits, natal etc, one's chart is like genetic code. No matter how much we can say "this percentage of people tend to this"...which is true to some degree, personally I am disturbed by people using a chart to define a person as "tending towards" some psychological state which I am fairly certain no one here on this thread has the necessary education, experience and training to diagnose ANYONE with.

And truly, if there is someone here with a psychology degree, then I would be happy to admit their superior views on the subject of what a psychopath is or what they tend towards. . .

But to use charts to determine someone's inherent "evilness" and then use a often mis-portrayed term "psychopath" as the tag, its just irresponsible. Especially to a portion of the population (albeit a small) but real portion that has been diagnosed as such, and are (yes are) trying to get treatment for it.

I think the ideas presented in here are mostly a bit like a insensitive circle-jerk