12th House Interpretation Request!

StillOne

Well-known member
Thanks for the links Caro! I had forgotten about the thezodiac.com site.

I think this is quite a good site as it talks about both interpretations.(modern and traditional)
It also mentions the moon.

http://www.thezodiac.com/12thhouse.htm

There was one particular quote in here that was pretty interesting and I'm sure is very relevant:
Putting this in plain terms - if your birth Moon is in the 12th house, then there's a strong chance that your birth mother (Moon) may have been going through some very emotionally difficult times just prior to or after your birth... [FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans serif]or...[/FONT] [FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans serif]there may be some of sort hidden sacrifice surrounding the archetypal image of[/FONT] [FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans serif]"The Mother." [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans serif]And [/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans serif]if Mom was going through[/FONT] [FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans serif]some hard times - then [/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans serif]don't even try to kid yourself...[/FONT] [FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans serif]it will be something you'll eventually[/FONT] [FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans serif]have to deal with in your own life[/FONT] [FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans serif]and in your own fears...[/FONT]
I'm sure this is relevant since my parents split very soon after I was born. My father was an alcoholic at the time. As I understand, he didn't enjoy having a newborn around... this may then influence my Saturn position?

I think their relationship was largely unharmonius. I do feel my father is a good man, he just wasn't quite ready for a relationship at that time... Also, he's been married 5 times! He's got Moon in opposition to Pluto which I'm sure has challenged his ability to open up his feelings. As I understand it, I'm the only child out of all his relationships.

It doesn't end there. His father (my grandfather) left 5 children when they were young for a life with another woman.

So, I think there's some karmic relationship stuff going on...



moon inconjunct mercury is important and may help you explore your moon in 12th h.
http://www.cafeastrology.com/natal/quincunxinterpretations.html
Indeed, I feel it's important too. I think it helps explain why I would have tended to stay "logically" emotional for so long as the two energies had trouble integrating. Also with a Gemini Moon it was easier to stay in my mind about my feelings. Here's the quote from the site:
You end up confused at times because you read more into communications than are there. It's good to be able to read between the lines - just make sure you are also reading what is on the lines. Your expectations and imagination are assets as soon as you are able to develop a method for expressing your true feelings. Since many of your feelings are hidden from you, self expression becomes a path of self discovery.
 
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StillOne

Well-known member
I think this is quite a good site as it talks about both interpretations.(modern and traditional)
It also mentions the moon.

http://www.thezodiac.com/12thhouse.htm
On a different note, I also found this to be interesting from this site:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Water Houses[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4th House - Undifferentiated Unconscious[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]8th House - Personal Unconscious [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]12th House - Collective Unconscious [/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
I think for the "twelfth house" thread that the above definition is interesting.
[/FONT]
 
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StillOne

Well-known member
I'm in blue (10 characters)

hi still one,

your moon is especially interesting as it is the ruler of your ascendant and also where natal saturn happens to be.. one of the big differences between traditional and modern astrology is that modern astrology - and this is in my words - tended to move away from the predictive approach and more into a focus on psychology.. not that one can't do both as they can.. Love that aspect about astrology. Quite amazing really. the ruler of your moon is mercury in scorpio 5th house, and it also happens to rule your 3rd house/sign virgo.. Thanks for that. Interesting to contemplate. if the idea of sacrifice or some unrealized position that is karmic, or hidden was to present itself, it might be in any of these areas connected directly to the sign and house placement of the moon, what it rules and what it is ruled by.. you get a rough idea of how many possible extensions are all conceivable thinking this way.. Indeed, and I'll have to do some more thinking on this type of connection. additionally aspect patterns can support or hinder the placement of the moon as well and as caro points out whether you think of the clash or disconnect implied by the quincunx aspect between moon and it's ruler mercury, or you think of the more traditional idea of signs inconjunct or quincunx one another not seeing each other, you can draw conclusions on this set up as well. It almost seems as if the Qcx and Disjunct would manifest similarly here since the 12th house is cadent.

this is one of the many astro exercises that i love engaging in to understand astrology better - first hand with a person who is interested in astrology and curious to know what others see on a particular position in the chart.. what others have said about having to consider the whole chart is also very true and always has to somehow be included.

what i see is a cancer rising, with saturn close by suggesting a desire for close family connectedness which might not be there or have some element of difficulty given the saturn position. Bingo, as I mentioned I relocated to a different country early in childhood. This was the country that my Mother was from. There's large family there but moving back here at age 11 effectively separated that connection. Since I have limited contact with my father, there has been very limited connection with his extended family which is where I moved back to... i generally associate the sign cancer with the mother more then the father, but some parent usually the mom may have an undue influence on a person with cancer rising.. with saturn here, i sense this more strongly for good or ill.. It was for good in this case. My Mother really is a saint... not just to me, but many people as well. saturn in cancer in the ascendant also suggests a weaker health situation, perhaps to do with parts of the body to do with cancer as well.. I was pretty sickly as a child. However, these days I'm pretty healthy. I have one benign disease that makes me tired and sensitive to sunlight. I think as a result of sun exposure, I've had one mole removed that was pre-cancerous. Interesting that cancer is a theme in my family not from the sign perspective but the disease perspective too.

what i am looking at is the primary direction of saturn to your 12th house moon and wondering just what external event was connected to this direction in your 20th year when it would have been exact - feb of 1994. This would be during my sophmore year in college. I can't really think of anything specific besides quite a bit of freedom and not much responsibility. This could also be a time of intense insecurity as I truly recognized an interesting condition that I'll say would be a symptom of retrograde Mars in my chart. You can pm me if you want specifics. I think this put a bit of a melancholy twist on my life. Without going into specifics, the condition is benign but frustrating and confusing.

moon in gemini is about friendships, connections to brothers and sisters, short distance travel and lower education.. mercury ruler is in the 5th in scorpio.. one of many possibilities when i connect all of the astro i see is a love relationship with a child born when you may have been too young to have a child..the most obvious possibility is some type of sickness given saturns presence in the ascendant being brought to your natal moon, ruler of the ascendant.. another possibility could be some type of event connected to a brother or sister that was very difficult given this saturn in cancer placement tied to the moon in gemini in the 12th..remember that scorpio the sign is also implicated given this is the sign of the ruler of your moon, so possibility of a death of brother or sister or close friend is also a possibility.. so, for 1, i would be wondering about this particular year and approx time frame for an expression of this moon in the 12th in some context doing predictive work with the astrology that i know.. this is approach i am taking is a mix of many ideas and not an expression of any 1 system of astro thought..
I've been thinking about this question for a few days now and nothing really comes to mind for those dates. I'll continue to think about it as it's possible I'm forgetting something....

another interesting and critical turning point would be the transit of saturn to this natal moon. this is more of a modern astrology approach, minus the solar arc directions, or secondary progressions that many astrologers would also look at.. this is donna cunninghams approach to just focus on transits.. one can never really just look at one transit as there is always all the other transits to take into consideration... for the record i was also looking at transits and the solar revolution for your 20th year before i made the statements in the above paragraph on the primary direction i had in focus..

this transit of saturn to your moon was in january of 1987, which is long enough ago for you to possibly not remember.. for anyone really interested in learning about astrology - keep a diary, as it can shed a huge amount of light on what all these predictive techniques suggest when you get round to exploring them and trying to match the astro data to some type of external or internal event going on in your life during any of them.. all of these techniques have to take into consideration the age of a person, as what one might experience as a young person will differ from that of an adult or an old person.. at 13 this transit highlighting your natal moon might have been the loss of a friend, a passing experience of depression, a disappointment connected to your family life and etc. etc.. I think this period is relevant for the fact that I had recently started yet another school. I had moved schools every 2 years since I started first grade. So this was the 4th time I had moved cities. I certainly wasn't all that well received and was generally awkward given that in a sense, I was a foreigner, having come from a different country 2 years before. However, this was also the beginning of the most stable time in my life since I didn't move for the next 6 years. It began one of the/ if not the best period of my life as I was able to begin some passions that I still do to this day. the reason the direction or transit of saturn would probably manifest in a more difficult manner has to do with the position of natal saturn in cancer close to your ascendant.. focusing on the transit of jupiter would be more positive in many respects as it is the difference between the role of saturn and jupiter in what it can bring into a persons life, hinging on how it is situated and what it rules over in the persons life.. anyway, i am taking a break here and will be back.. my focus has been just on what the 12th house moon might manifest as, minus any psychological descriptions.. i have taken a look at 2 things - a pd of saturn to your moon at approx age 20 and the transit of saturn to your moon at age 13.. there is no primary direction to go with the transit of saturn to moon for january 87.. the solar arc direction of mars is exactly opposite mercury - the moons ruler for this year 87..
 

sandstone

Banned
thanks for the more direct feedback still one.. i associate planets in the mutable signs - your moon, venus and neptune, and planets in the mutable houses - moon, venus and neptune - with more moving around and changing places.. this seems to be especially emphasized in your life which i would directly associate with your moon sign/house position.. when you think of it, the ascendant ruler throws a large influence over the whole chart given the importance of the ascendant.. when you have the ascendant ruled by moon or sun, it becomes an even bigger presence it seems..

the number of schools you went to also seems directly connected to moon in gemini with 3rd house ruler- mercury - ruling both.

as for that experience or psychological realization in your 20th year and a possible connection to mars retro - as many have said here - nothing is going to operate in isolation of the rest of the chart, but it is interesting to consider a life pattern or tendency as represented by the moon - a symbol for our habitual approach to life and how it is often difficult to get a clear read on just how much they impact our life when we are unaware of them.. this might address the hidden connection to the 12th house too, but i would say it is no different for anyone else with a moon in their chart.. the difference might be how it is more critical that we recognize these patterns if we are to reach a state of spiritual awareness to any degree - again a 12th house type association that many make.. and, then there is the tie in of moon to your ascendant giving it further emphasis...

for me your chart is a breakdown of air and water.. i see these 2 elements working in a very different manner.. most folks new to astrology and even many that have been doing it a long while tend to assume you can access the whole chart and that the whole chart says something about you and who you are.. i tend to think it can also show how difficult it can be to access it all, especially when one has to integrate very different elemental emphasis.. your moon and sun are in air, while your ascendant is in water.. moon in air tends to want to think it's way thru stuff, although i don't think it is easy to do.. ascendant in water on the other hand wants to feel it's way thru and not rely on thinking as much.. for me merging these 2 elements is no easy task.. a much easier task is grabbing onto a particular emphasis or approach and letting the other one take a 2ndary or worse role in the processing of life - which leads to bigger disconnects as i see it.. it doesn't have to be a 12th house planet, but can be something as simple as a clash of elements that suggest an approach based on which one is on top..

you mentioned this in an earlier post today -"I'm sure this is relevant since my parents split very soon after I was born. My father was an alcoholic at the time. As I understand, he didn't enjoy having a newborn around... this may then influence my Saturn position?"

which came first - the chicken or the egg? does your experience influence your saturn position, or your saturn position influence your experience of family and father more strongly? i think astrology is about reading symbols that represent connections between the 2 more then anything else..
 

Caro

Well-known member
I did see that water house breakdown - very interesting.
I dont have anything in 8th H so it is a bit of a mystery to me.Although I have/know a lot of gifted psychics with 8th h planets.

also your reply is very candid re your dad. it sounds like you have dealt very well with that abandonment at an early age.In the work that I have done these can be deep soul lessons. (very tough too) as you have illustrated repeated patterns. I think one of the themes of this 12 house is release and letting go. again easier said than done.

I also have a predominately air and water chart. I have felt like two different people at times. since I have pursued more alternative lifestyles and interests have integrated these better.

have learnt quite a lot from this thread.
thanks
 

StillOne

Well-known member
OK. I looked at the modern chart for about 10 minutes, so take this for what it's worth!
Thanks Judy! Wow, for 10 minutes you sure saw a lot and you are very accurate in your assessment.

I'm thinking that "Still One" is a very appropriate handle for you.

Your two 12th house planets rule your Ascendant-Descendant axis. I get a very vulnerable feeling about that. Also a sense of "powerlessness", with Saturn in the 12th squaring Pluto -- or maybe you just have (or had in youth) a hard time individuating yourself from the demands of others about how/who you should be.
Indeed, I'd say I'm pretty vulnerable. Vulnerable to people. Seems I am so sensitive I really take so many things personally. These perceived slights tend to stick with me as I have a hard time letting things go. I really need to focus on forgiveness... every day... not only others but myself also.

I don't think I'm "powerless", but I think when I was younger I really just wanted to belong. So I was a bit insecure since I didn't embrace my uniquness very well.

You are easily touched by other people's problems. But it looks as if you probably have had a hard time reaching out to people, because you feel exposed or not quite in control of relationships. Learning when and how to engage with people and disengage from them could be an issue here, though I imagine you've worked that out in a way that's comfortable for you by now.
I'm very concerned about other people. I really want the best for others and I sometimes sacrifice myself. I've stopped sacrificing myself since it really doesn't benefit anyone in "the end". I'm very good at sensing others feelings/situations/conditions etc. and helping find solutions to problems for them. However, I do have a hard time doing that for myself and have had issues reaching out for help. As I've matured I've been able to open more which hasn't been easy and as you see here, I'm still learning to do.

Through introspection/meditation, reading, studying astrology I have finally found a path and feel a sense of belonging.

Maybe you have a sort of persona or mask... very common with Cancer, to create a personality "shell" that hides the sensitive inner self in order to deal with the world.
I'd agree with that since traditionally it hasn't been very "manly" to be sensitive.

With your extreme sensitivity, retreat is probably a preferred option for you, just spending time alone, in meditation or quietude... Still One, indeed! Even alone, it may be hard for you to "shake off" other people's feelings in order to get back to yourself. You "bond" very easily, and can lose yourself in relationship... emotional boundaries are easily crossed. In my experience, Cancer rising people can get kind of cranky when they feel someone's getting too close. It's a way to get others to back off a bit. But maybe you've developed a different technique to keep people at arm's length when needed.
Yes, I've always operated in this manner. I need periods of solitude. I seek tranquility from the inner turmoil. Lol, yes I get cranky if I don't get my space and someone is being pushy. Thanks for illuminating this as now I can explain this better going forward.

Indeed, "Still One" has many meanings...

I wonder if you sort of feel your thoughts and think your feelings -- if they feel as if they're all one thing and hard to sort. I'm sure you soak up a lot of influences from all kinds of sources. Very creative and probably spiritual thoughts, with Mercury in your 5th ruling the 12th. Mercury in Scorpio can be razor-sharp and incisive. How do you bring those marvelous thoughts into the material world?
I do exhibit this thinking feeling of Gemini. If I feel my thinking? I'm unsure about that. I'll have to explore that more.

I think I used to be quite gullible... Looking up to others or putting others on pedestals, thinking they had answers or that they were better in some way. I would discount my instincts and intuition.

Now I find that if I just listen to what my soul is telling me it's almost always the right course of action. So, it's currently very important for me to unite the mind, body and spirit. That's one reason why I really wanted to try and get people to comment here.

I feel I'm very creative with a huge imagination. I'm a musician (not my profession) and am attracted to the arts in general. I think what you say about Mercury is interesting in light of the "Twelfth House" thread as well. As I've aged I've become increasingly spiritual (even though I always was without realizing it). These aspects come out in the music I write and the personal philosophies of life that I have. I have always enjoyed thinking about spirituality and religion even when I considered myself athiest!

Since Cancer and Capricorn, Moon and Saturn, can indicate the parents, I have to wonder if they were emotionally distant or if they made huge sacrifices for the family? Or maybe it's the opposite, that you're very bound up in identifying with your parents? So hard to tell with the 12th house! Did you take on a caring role for one of them? If not yet, you may be called upon to do so at some point. I somehow think you wouldn't mind. In fact, you'd probably be very good at that kind of supportive, caring role.
Very good guess! So, as I mentioned my father was largely absent. So my mother had to make sacrifices. I'm largely very independent however. I haven't taken on a caring role... yet, even though I'm always emotionally supportive.

It looks as if Mars may have been your "helping hand" in the world, as Aries rules your MC and Mars is inside the 10th house, as well as being the apex of a yod.
I think you're right here as well! I do think that prominent Mars, even though it's retrograde, has helped me out considerably. It has pushed me to cultivate a very important physical exercise that was able to help release a lot of internal tension. Mars retrograde is largely an internal Mars, so I was always attracted to more individualized activities. Pushing myself versus competing on a team or against others. This type of activity, in hindsight, also helped then appease the tensions created by the yod. I've participated in this particular exercise for almost 25 years now and hope to make it a lifelong pursuit since it brings me such all around benefits.

I think my next thread will be my experience with yods.

PS: I get a mental image of you sitting in the lotus position, meditating, as the world -- people, clothes, food, personal items, "stuff" -- all swirl around you in the air like a sort of gentle cyclone.
Lol, very cool visual! I feel I'm not very materialistic and could do without, but in this material age it's difficult to do so.

Thanks for your take Judy, it's been quite illuminating.
 

StillOne

Well-known member
The difficulty in answering your question thoroughly with traditional methods is that both the Moon, and the 12th house signify many things, and so often specific questions will produce better answers. :smile:
I understand, I also wanted to challenge people a bit to see what they could come up with. I think everyone came up with some really insightful things.

Briefly, you have the ASC ruler in the 12th. I hazard a guess that you are the author of your own self-undoing. Your Moon is peregrine and cadent, making it a weak 1st house ruler wholly dependent on it's own house ruler, Mercury in 5th. Of course, Mercury is peregrine, so it relies on what it can get from Mars...in detriment. Quite the merry go round, and one of the reasons we need questions, lol.

For how the 12th plays out, we would look at it's ruler and ruler's house. So 12th issues will come from 5th house matters.
So if I'm not mistaken, romance is a 5th house matter so that issue would potentially cause the self-undoing in this case. Mars retrograde doesn't give much support since it tends to lead to inaction... a form of isolation... Hmmm.

The nifty thing I see is that trine from Sun to Moon. Yes, Sun is in Libra, which is it's fall, but it (I think) conjuncts Spica. :cool: Also, though the ASC ruler is cadent and in aversion to the ASC, I believe I remember reading somewhere that the Sun and Moon have a unique relationship where one is fully familiar with the other, meaning that the Sun can assist the Moon in its job.
I'm not really sure how Spica impacts the Sun. I suppose it gives it a helping hand in this case. Thank God for the Trine as I see it as a huge support. I'm sure I could probably learn a bit more about this particular aspect and cultivate it more.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
The difficulty in answering your question thoroughly with traditional methods is that both the Moon, and the 12th house signify many things, and so often specific questions will produce better answers. :smile:

The nifty thing I see is that trine from Sun to Moon. Yes, Sun is in Libra, which is it's fall, but it (I think) conjuncts Spica. :cool:

I'm not really sure how Spica impacts the Sun. I suppose it gives it a helping hand in this case. Thank God for the Trine as I see it as a huge support. I'm sure I could probably learn a bit more about this particular aspect and cultivate it more.

fwiw StillOne, from information available at: “The Fixed Stars in Alphabetical Order” http://www.constellationsofwords.com/stars/Stars_alphabet.htm:smile:

Spica conjunct the Sun gives great and lasting preferment, eminent dignity, immense wealth, great happiness to native's parents and children, help from friends among clergy, favorable for public and legal affairs.

If Spica is culminating (i.e. on the MC) - Church and State preferment.

If Spica is with Venus and Mars also - the native is a potent king obeyed by many people, but subject to many infirmities. Robson, p.211.
 

StillOne

Well-known member
Also, with tsmall's permission I'm posting a PM I received from her. It includes a quote that d00dle deleted. If d00dle minds and wants it removed please pm me and I'll do so. Thanks tsmall!

According to Paulus: "The Moon in this place indicates those born of a slave mother, base, of ill-repute, or abject. And if it should be regarded by one of the malefic stars [Mars, Saturn or the Sun by conjunction], or should make an application to one of the malefics, it shows the mother to be susceptible to disease and to have sustained an injury or be short-lived...". [81]
Keeping in mind that those times were far more difficult, especially for women, this degree of difficulty is not especially likely. If the Moon is strongly dignified or received, especially if in sect, then the native may have psychic sensitivity.

base-born used to mean conceived out of wedlock. So in this case, what Paulus was saying is that mom may have been concieved prior to marriage. Note the "may" though. And, note that it does not necissarily mean that gramma and grandpa weren't ever married. Mom as a "slave?" did your mom work hard, perhaps for low wages, to support the family? That is what this means in a modern society. It could also represent a stay at home mom, who toils hard with not a lot of help for her family. And this is why it is still cool to look at what the old guys said, and apply the language to modern times.

It needs saying that the 12th represents chronic illness, and then we would look to the ruler of the 12th, and the sign, for significators and indications of that illness. Also, with moon posited there, we would look at what body parts she signifies, and then to what merc signifies, as well as the 5th house, and the sign....see why specific questions help with trad astrology, lol?

Also note that the aspects mentioned for physic sensitivity, and the conditions, aren't met with regard to your moon. Does this mean no psychic sensitivity? No. it just means we don't look to a peregrine moon to find it.
 

StillOne

Well-known member
Just wondered did you/do you work in the army?

I don't/did not Caro. I assume you are looking at my Mars in the 10th here. Since it's retrograde, I tend to internalize Mars, even though it's very prominent. Since it's very visible and the apex of a yod, I feel it needs it's energies appeased or I start going a lil stir crazy. Luckily I've found some activities that satiate it very well and provides some great mental stimulation at the same time. Yoga is one example here... I also feel a bit blessed that it's in Taurus... I think a retrograde Mars placed elsewhere could possibly be a bit more dangerous.
 
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StillOne

Well-known member
Still One

I am just curious about your chart, but I am not ready to interpret your chart.....:pinched:

Based on pure curiosity:unsure:, Saturn square Pluto perfected at 0S. Any particular thing happened before the age of 1 or before birth?

Mars square Jupiter also perfected at 2A at the age of 2 anything particular?
I wish I knew Po Yi. I know that I moved quite a bit when I was that age. I'm sure my parents relationship wasn't very stable or harmonious. I traveled quite a bit in between cities as well as continents.

I think this realization just helped me understand why I feel so worldly in a sense. I am nationalistic but I feel that I belong to the greater Earth rather than a country.

Uranus square Jupiter perfected at 9A at the age of 9?
Look like your Venus is near the midpoint of Jupiter and Pluto; Venus opposite 10S...anything particularly interesting at the age of 10?
Well, I think this depends on what parts of the year you're talking about. Once again, I moved from one city to the next in one country at age 9. At the end of age 10, I moved to a different continent.

Your NN Rahu in 6th house and SN Ketu in 12th house, Ketu loosely conjunction with 12th Saturn by approx 7 degrees. I myself have Ketu in 4th house conjunct IC. I am emotionally also physically detached from my family. I think Ketu in 12th also suggest some kind of detachment. Rahu represents your utmost desire/obsession which is located in 6th house, whatever this house represents, you would be likely to obsess or pay most attention/energy to?
Good question Po Yi, I wish I knew... I have many interests. I'm a jack-of-all-trades but master-of-none type person. I have a desire to be masterful at something but unsure which direction to go sometimes. I think the upcoming Uranus transit to the 10th house in the next few years may reveal this. :unsure:

Hmmm...at this point in time let leave those inconjunctions behind; but they are very important messages...


I have got some references for everyone to have a look.

From this link:
http://astroveda.wikidot.com/stars-in-twelfth-house

Saturn in 12th house


You have the potential to develop strong inner discipline and
sensitivity. There can be feelings of fear, doubt and a lack of
confidence in yourself. There may be an unconscious desire to make
restitution for wrongs committed in previous lives. Thus, you may
feel fated and desire to retreat from society...



Moon in 12th house

This position can indicate work behind the scenes in an institution,
hospital or jail. There may be dealings with public welfare or those
unfortunates of life. Conscious or subconscious sensitivity can be
damaging if not held in check...
[quote over 100 words against forum rules - Moderator]

I think the comments that you mentioned above regarding Saturn are pretty spot on. With the square to Pluto, I think I can be extremely disciplined when I need be. However, I can be a bit lazy too! Lol.

Some of the Moon in the 12th was removed by the Mods. I think it's interesting how you mention "conscious or subconscious sensitivity can be damaging if not held in check." I sense this too and it makes me very interested in meditation as a result to try and prevent this from happening...

Thank you for your contribution and ideas! I'll certainly keep pondering some of these more. :sideways:
 
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Caro

Well-known member
I don't/did not Caro. I assume you are looking at my Mars in the 10th here. Since it's retrograde, I tend to internalize Mars, even though it's very prominent. Since it's very visible and the apex of a yod, I feel it needs it's energies appeased or I start going a lil stir crazy. Luckily I've found some activities that satiate it very well and provides some great mental stimulation at the same time. Yoga is one example here... I also feel a bit blessed that it's in Taurus... I think a retrograde Mars placed elsewhere could possibly be a bit more dangerous.

No.
I was reading up about cancer rising(cancer in saturn) and cap in 6th h. I thought this could be a good fit. but probably you would be a chef or something. the army' fits' saturn in cancer.also I read one of your posts which says you dont live near your family cos of what you do yet you have a large family.People often talk about the army as if it were family ie my brother inarms. thanks for clearing that up.
I wasnt aware of danger of mars rx either! and didnt look into that.. all the best.
 

poyi

Premium Member
I wish I knew Po Yi. I know that I moved quite a bit when I was that age. I'm sure my parents relationship wasn't very stable or harmonious. I traveled quite a bit in between cities as well as continents.

I think this realization just helped me understand why I feel so worldly in a sense. I am nationalistic but I feel that I belong to the greater Earth rather than a country.


Well, I think this depends on what parts of the year you're talking about. Once again, I moved from one city to the next in one country at age 9. At the end of age 10, I moved to a different continent.


Good question Po Yi, I wish I knew... I have many interests. I'm a jack-of-all-trades but master-of-none type person. I have a desire to be masterful at something but unsure which direction to go sometimes. I think the upcoming Uranus transit to the 10th house in the next few years may reveal this. :unsure:



I think the comments that you mentioned above regarding Saturn are pretty spot on. With the square to Pluto, I think I can be extremely disciplined when I need be. However, I can be a bit lazy too! Lol.

Some of the Moon in the 12th was removed by the Mods. I think it's interesting how you mention "conscious or subconscious sensitivity can be damaging if not held in check." I sense this too and it makes me very interested in meditation as a result to try and prevent this from happening...

Thank you for your contribution and ideas! I'll certainly keep pondering some of these more. :sideways:

I think it was over 100 words limit. You can click the link to see the full details. I reckon that site gives pretty accurate in depth interpretation in some areas. I use that as reference.

Regarding Rahu/NN (Obsession)... I don't have really "definite" interpretation but using my own chart as example may give you some ideas for further investigation of Rahu and Ketu.

Considering my own chart:

1st house Virgo Mars and 3rd Scorpio Mercury has mutual reception, Mars trine 5th house Capricorn Moon and Mercury sextile both Mars and Moon and Mercury in 3rd house, own house ruler, he also is the ruler of my 10th Gemini Cusp (outer most public self) which Rahu conjuncts MC....a lot of time I have characteristic of a Gemini and I can be very sociable and extremely talkative never ran out of topics (part of me). But of course I am still an intense Scorpio but the way I act nobody had ever considered me as Scorpio in normal day to day contact.

I supposed because of Mercury in his own house, I still carry a lot of Gemini in me... (although Mercury in Scorpio sign) he exalts in Virgo by sextile and Mars exalts in Capricorn while Mercury is near the midpoint of Mars/Moon trine. The centre of this patten Mercury rules my 10th and Rahu conjunct MC. I would say my hyperactive Mercury can be seen by having conversation with me. And I love my job since very young age around primary school time becoming a good nurse was/is my optimal goal (Obsession), I have decided what I wanted to do for the future and never changed my mind. And clearly, Mercury exalts in Virgo Mars and Mercury quintile ascendant (my thoughts were manifested as actions/behaviors).

My Ketu/SN (spiritual self/detachment according to Indian astrology) is conjunct IC and Jupiter, my spiritual quest or personal understanding is through the hardship from family and early childhood. Uranus conjunct Jupiter and IC let says that destructive Uranus was part of the awakening factor. Uranus also locates at the end of my 3rd house. But because ketu is located at my IC and 4th house all these experiences from the past are the foundation of my personality which supports the whole chart as Root of a tree (fundamental life source, at angular house conjunct IC, square AC/DC opposite MC); Jupiter also owns 7th by ruling Neptune and as the traditional ruler of Piseces. Notes that 4th house is the actual Northern side of the sky and 10th is the actual southern side of the sky at birth and so as my MC/IC's positions. And because Jupiter/Ketu opposite my 10th/MC, my current life lesson is all learned from work....my work has DEEP and Profound impact on my deepest private self....same as my deepest private self carrying same level of impacts to the way I work (the outer most public self)...Let says Rahu and Ketu are mirror images of each other opposite but yet interrelated.

See if these can help you to work out "Something".

Your first chart (equal housing) Rahu conjunct 7th house/descendant Capricorn, second chart is 6th house Capricorn...see which type of housing system suits you most. If Rahu represents a native's obsession of this life then for you should be 6th or 7th?

Just my suggestions, I am not experienced, just some thoughts to share. :tongue:
 
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StillOne

Well-known member
Sorry it's taking me a bit to get to all these posts!

StillOne

According to vedic astrology you are extremely fortunate! Mercury, ruler of Lagna (i.e. ascendant) and 4th (happiness, "sukh", mother, home/house, homeland, vehicles) is in the very fortunate 5th (good luck, children, blessings, good karma) house. And ruler of the very fortunate 9th house, saturn is in lagna (which is both a trine and angular house) This is considered very fortunate indeed!
Thanks Carris for your uplifting material here. I appreciate the vedic interpretation! I may have to take a closer look at things from this perspective as a result... :biggrin:

The sanskrit word "sukh" means a combination of happiness, peace, contentment. Since the 1st and 4th ruler is strongly placed in the 5th you you are likely to have a lot of "sukh" generally - and also from children. Sun, ruler of 3rd (siblings, learning, courage, initiative) in 4th can mean happy relationships with siblings.
I feel this is pretty accurate and generally feel quite content and that, generally, I have a peaceful life. I have a younger brother and we have a good relationship overall.

Moon ruler of your 2nd (wealth, family, eyes, speech) is exalted in taurus in the 12th (expenditure, foreign lands, moksha) - this can mean expenditure of wealth on very good deeds and wealth from foreign lands. Moon also recieves aspect from ruler of the 5th venus - making it stronger.
Well, I certainly hope this plays out! Lol. I can relate to some of it since I have had some family assistance in this department at various stages in my life.

Moon at 23-52 taurus is in its own Mrigashirsha nakshatra (i.e. constellation) which is interpreted as "Like the deer they are gentle, peaceful, tender and have large soft doe like eyes. They are seekers and are powerful investigators and researchers. Highly intelligent their quest will eventually take them to spiritual dimensions of their soul. There is a sensual provocative side. The fun is in the chase or the journey not the destination, for then the thrill is over. They are known for having bright & beautiful children." and "They are sincere in their behavior towards others and expect that others should also behave in the same way. They have a good grasping power, can quickly learn new things and have a creative nature."
This is pretty spot on! Quite remarkable assessment really. I feel like I've always been quite a researcher and as we've seen in the "twelfth house" thread, that I'm entering a more spiritual time in my life.

Mars, ruler of 11th (income, friends, elder siblings) and 6th (disease, enemies, servants) is very strongly placed in its own aries in the 11th. So you will earn a lot, destroy all your enemies/diseases and have very loyal servants. Mars is said to aspect 4th, 7th and 8th houses from its position - so in your case as ruler of 11th (income) it aspects the 2nd (wealth), 5th (luck, children), mercury (1st, 4th), venus (5th, 12th) and 6th houses - lots of wealth and income and destruction of enemies and diseases!
I'll keep my fingers crossed!!

Venus, ruler of 5th (children) is in 6th - so you will have very good health/servants and will have no enemies. But you might have very few children. Ruler of 7th and 10th houses, jupiter is in the 8th (longevity, dowry, in-laws, inheritance) which is also very good because jupiter is considered a malefic for mithun (i.e. gemini) lagna - so it destroys the harmful aspects of the 8th house and gives good in-laws, dowry, inheritance, longevity etc.
I can definitely see how the children part plays out here, since I have no kids yet! Lol, hopefully one day...

Thanks for taking the time Carris!
 

StillOne

Well-known member
Hi StillOne,

I noticed t Saturn 90 r Moon Sept 79.
Jerry, my apologies it's taken a bit to get to you. This particular time would have coincided with going to 1st grade. It also began a series of bullying for the next two years until I moved. Of course this wasn't a very pleasant time for me and was marred with quite a bit of emotional turmoil and fear.

t Saturn 135 r Moon Dec 82 April 83 and Sept 83.
Unfortunately, I'm not recalling anything very particular for these dates. I'll keep pondering them. I was generally pretty reckless at this time. I wasn't doing very well in school at all. I think I had considerable difficulty at home with my step-father, since he would really lose his temper sometimes and could lose himself in rage... breaking things, etc. The instinct here was to retreat and isolate myself in my room.

My brother was born in June of 82 so possibly then at the end of 82 and 83 I was quite a bit out of the picture. I had considerable freedom for being this young. I was always a latchkey kid. In hindsight this freedom helped develop who I am, which is extremely independent but I also got into some trouble during this time.

t Saturn 180 r Moon Dec 85.
In 84 the family relocated back to the US. The period of Dec 85 doesn't ring a bell really... I know I had changed 180 from what I said above. I had become an exceptionally student but had become very shy and generally introverted. This was opposite of how I was before which I feel is pretty interesting.

I'll keep pondering the specific dates more.


Please may I ask you about the period October 91 to Oct 92,late Spring/Summer 92.

Oct 91 to Oct 92 marked my last year in high school. A blissful time, really, with zero responsibilities and a very easy school schedule. I was able to leave early since I didn't need a full schedule to graduate.

Outside of school, I was able to focus on and become quite proficient at some passions that I still do to this day.

It also marked a time of light drug experimentation which was able to open my mind and break down some barriers. I certainly have to credit that for getting me out of a more self centered nature and being more compassionate and understanding.

Sorry I couldn't be more specific Jerry. If I recall more, I'll make sure to tell you.
 
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Moog

Well-known member
I feel like I've always been quite a researcher and as we've seen in the "twelfth house" thread, that I'm entering a more spiritual time in my life.

That's interesting.

I checked your dasas

Jupiter/Rahu (see attached image)

I'm currently in Rahu/Jupiter :whistling:

Rahu elevates the importance of the ruler of the sign he is posited in. That's Jupiter for you.

Jupiter has obvious associations with religion/spirituality.

Rahu has an association with the occult and the taboo.

Astrology seems like a good way to mix the two.

The 8th house in which Jupiter is posited can generally be ascribed occult significations (death, transformation, secret knowledge etc.).

Jupiter also aspects the 12th house, the 12th having some significations for the Spiritual/occult. (Dreams, psychic and astral activity, meditation etc.)

Have fun :biggrin:
 

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StillOne

Well-known member
i agree this is a fun thread to read and i think still one is a very thoughtful person indeed!

my approach to understand the symbols better is to use predictive tools to understand the way a planet, or point in the chart works.. in this sense my comments aren't so much a read of the meaning of the planets so much as a means for still one and others to get a feel for how i have come to understand the meaning and placement of planets in my own chart.. i have done this largely by watching the planets in action and of course my latest passion is for learning more about primary directions.. i think watching transits, or whatever predictive tools you like to learn about and work more with is a good way to understand how the meanings from planetary placements can play out and be represented many different ways.. in a sense reading just the position of 1 placement like - moon in the 12th has to mesh with the rest of the chart too in some way..
Thanks for the tips here Sandstone. I finally did get my astro software so I'll be sure to monitor transits going forward. Even though astrology isn't necessarily a primary passion of mine, I am propelled to understand it since it seems to affect me quite profoundly. So in the future I can see more reading and learning driven by the need to understand...

i was thinking more about the 2 motions are work - the daily motion of planets rising in the east and setting in the west- counterclockwise motion thru the chart, and the yearly motion of planets moving thru the signs - clockwise motion thru the chart.. which one has greater relevance, or how does one blend these 2 different motions in some symbolic way that seems to represent the flow of life from the moment of birth?

i am leaning towards thinking the yearly motion - planets moving thru the signs from aries to pisces - is the heavier and longer term motion which has greater impact over the long term.. thus for me the meaning of the 12th is one of letting go the time spent in the upper half of the chart in preparation for the journey into the lower hemisphere of the chart.. in this sense i think of the moon in this location and any planet to a certain extent as having a more reflective and meditative quality to it.. and of course the obvious tip off here is the originator of this threads name - 'still one' which suggests the same.. someone part of a brotherhood or group - 11th house and gemini type images, but with a 12th house twist - group of monks, or some group involved in research - a tie in to the mercury in scorpio ruler of this moon in gemini - all make a lot of sense to me.. the fact is i have moon above the horizon with saturn just below in a similar set up to still one and i would have to say that the idea of 'retreating' or being hermit like in my involvement in the world is very true for me.. i could see it being true for still one as well given a similar set up.
I like how you phrased a lot of this, Sandstone. It is quite interesting about the motion of the planets thru the signs as well... I identify with much in here and it's interesting to speculate on what the future has in store as far as some of these interpretations go.

I have trasiting Jupiter coming to the 11th house fairly soon (if it's not there yet). This could be a time of leaving the isolation I've put myself in for largely a year or so. I've also had intuition about becoming more involved in the community and seeking out like minded folk in my general area.


the nice trine of moon to the libra placements - whole house in the 4th strengthens a more serene and contemplative approach as welll with an original and more independent flair given the close sun/uranus conjunction in libra.. although most astrologers are reluctant to use orbs as wide as 10 degrees, i feel the moon opposite venus supports the very positive and harmonious nature of still one that i have witnessed in my time here at this site.. there is always a social emphasis with the air signs from what i have witnessed and even with a moon in air in the 12th, it has to come out in some social context.. perhaps this is even more so with the close 135 to jupiter in aquarius..
Interesting interpretation of the trine. I haven't paid much attention to the trine since largely my focus here has been on understanding the nature of the quincunx. Thanks for that insight. I'll have to look into my trines a bit more and cultivate them some more.

I certainly didn't think of the Moon/Venus opposition as support! I'll have to think on that some.

I appreciate the kind words Sandstone.

we don't know much about still one, or most of the posters on this site - and there seems to be a small core, in spite of the large numbers that have membership here - but we get to learn about others thru the interaction they express towards each other.. my impression of still one is a very positive one from the get go.. much of this might have to do with the great detachment that air is capable of and of which i lack in my own chart.. i am attracted to what i lack.. i think this is true using the elements for understanding others better.. i suppose temperament analysis is really based off this same approach of giving elements a greater or lesser weighing too.. the sole planet in earth in still one's chart is mars in taurus retrograde..
I didn't even consider Mars in this equation... further internalizing due to the retrograde nature... Almost goes hand in hand with 12th house Moon. Once again we see that we need to look at the whole chart to form a picture of the native.

at any rate, i thought later it would have been smarter to use the transit of saturn to the moon may 31st 2002 as a more interesting time to learn more about how still one's moon operates in his chart..this time would have also coincided with lunar and solar eclipses in the 2 month area right around this saturn t to still one's natal moon as well, so especially strong emphasis on the natal moon for a few reasons at this time.. i find it's always hard to separate all the other transits overlapping any one that i might single out.. saturn will bring out the weaknesses in a structure, or highlight the strengths if the position is solid.. a happier examination would be the transit of jupiter to moon, but then i don't think it would be the depth of meaning that i think saturn can offer when touching personal points in a chart.. at any rate my comments are decidedly lopsided and i accept that having outlined my reasoning for all this.. thanks still one for making something such a positive experience for those willing to share and others happy to watch from the sidelines..
This was a most profound time. This really was the very beginning of my big search. I was living in a city where I didn't want to be and working a job that I didn't want to do.

I started doing some personality testing and pondering a career change at the time. I picked up a few self-help books and largely began questioning what I was doing.

I think I finally started "awakening" slowly during this transit.
 
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StillOne

Well-known member
Just a thought. The mind of man creates his destiny, quite literally. All experience of life takes place in the mind and nowhere else. I therefore treat the astrological chart as a charting of the psyche, and the destiny flows out of that.
I like this viewpoint. I think with this type of view, that we can change and thus alter our destiny... or is that already built in as our destiny? Lol.


A Twelfth House Moon very often indicates a weak and dependent mother. The inidividual chart will describe the situation (you must read the whole chart, as an integral unit -- after all, you are an integral unit and the chart supposedly describes you). Whatever was going on with mom is still rolling around in your own head and affects youur life.
Well, I will agree on that I think my mother had a big impact on me and subconsciously things are indeed still "rolling around" in my head.

I think since I was so young when my parents split, that the first thing I knew was just "my mother and I". That was the norm. When the Step-Father entered the picture at age 6, it had a profound impact on me that I didn't even realize exactly what was going on at the time.

With the Moon in the 12th, I was able to bury these emotions. However, I think it affected my intimate relationships in that I instinctively am looking for drama and then ultimate failure possibly... as I don't get the woman in the end...?

In this case the Moon does not represent a weak and dependent mother. She always wanted a career and successfully accomplished that. She worked and I went to daycare. Lol.

****

Each element of a chart has a specific meaning...house, sign, motion, intrinsic nature and all that.
But also, each element can and does manifest in a multiplicity of ways.

I have Neptune closely conjunct the IC, therefore a powerful influence in my life......
It has shown up as, among other things, the following:

A very unstable and insecure platform on which to stand -- constant changes of residence
Alcoholism
An exceptional ability to see into others and recognize their motives and intentions
A lifelong spiritual quest
Dissolution of family ties
Cloistering of the self
Dedication to astrology and healing the wounded soul
Thanks for sharing your personal experience. Good food for thought. I relate to Neptune as well...

If we want to understand a chart -- and most importantly, the person it portrays -- then we must understand that any and every chart element stands on its own and will manifest in multiple ways. And the manifestations depend on the age of the person, what choices he or she has made in the past, and what he or she chooses in the now. Each of these independent chart elements is, however, intimately and inextricably related to everything else in the chart, and we simply cannot "interpret" a single element out of the context of the whole chart. Where we wish to focus on some single aspect of life, the individual element is relevant -- but must always be understood in context. And always there is the question of Significance. What does this or that event or trait Mean to the native? And that is really a question only the native can answer.
I understand and as we've seen in this thread, you must go outside of just one aspect in order to understand it. However, I appreciate the focus on this position since, well, there is so much you can talk about in a chart and this was a good way to try and keep the discussion centered around the 12th Moon and potentially how it may manifest.

I've been able to glean a lot of information from this discussion and, as you see, am still contemplating it.


Another example of "mutliple manifestations" of a planet, this one from a transit of Pluto over my natal Moon:

I had not seen my mother in some years. I detested her. But seeing this transit forming, I decided to travel to visit her.
It was the last time I ever saw her alive. Even though her own physical death did not occur for a few years (the transit was to my chart, not hers), for me she "died" on the day I saw her last.
After the visit, on the long dark highway home, I experienced an epiphany, a product of that visit. It forever changed my relationship with my mother (internally, as she now was physically absent from my life), gave me insight into the nature of human relationships, and effected a very deep personal transformation that re-created me as a "new man."
Very very interesting. I'm sorry to hear of your troubles there but sense that perhaps this "new man" is one of profound insight and wisdom.

Any prediction should, to the extent possible, be based on knowledge of the individual's proven character and on both past and present circumstances. I certainly don't want to be the astrologer who says of the woman with Venus and Jupiter conjunct her Libra Ascendant, "You have a beautiful peaches and cream complexion with long blonde hair," only to find out she is an Igbo Princess from Nigeria.
Indeed, perhaps why doing astrology over the internet is quite challenging! :cool:

Thanks for taking the time Greybeard!
 
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sandstone

Banned
hey still one! thanks for responding and being a supportive and compassionate person in all of it.. the thanks button isn't working, so i am leaving this message! cheers - james
 

StillOne

Well-known member
Hi d00dle, thanks for you comments here. Sorry it's taken a bit to get thru these replies... lots to ponder and I suppose I wasn't quite ready for the extent of everyones replies.

i've been studyin and lookin at your chart for the past couple days. just my 2 cents (and final) on this...I think Moon isn't your only planet in the 12th, but also Saturn because 1) it's above the horizon , and 2) is inconjunction to Ascendant even though Saturn is in the 1st sign.
Interesting take. As I read your response, I identified with most of what you said. It's interesting that you gave two different house definitions for the Moon and I can relate to them both. Not sure then if Cancer Asc/Cancer Saturn crosses over here as well.

Saturn is at 4 Cancer, Peregrine, in the Cadent House (but in the 1st sign), and out of sect. Basically, i'd say Saturn is not quite strong in your chart.

According to Saturn in the 12th interpretation...

"if Saturn is out of sect here (or debilitated and afflicted), it shows neglect, an avoidance of responsibility, and difficulty in budgeting time. Some might suggest that this comes from a past lifetime of shirking some important responsibility or possibly an abuse of power. Depression, unreasonable phobias are likely possibilities, which could lead to abject circumstances if taken to the extreme."
Indeed, one of my struggles is budgeting my time. Seems I always try to figure out how to be better organized! Lol. I think there's a slight fantasy apparent about time... I can definitely procrastinate.

Interesting about the past life action you mention. I think I have bouts of depression, or maybe I'm depressed most of the time but just live with it... I'm working on healthier ways to deal with it these days. Life to me is bittersweet I suppose.

Saturn is also the ruler of the 7th (Romance, Marriage). According to Saturn as the ruler of the 7th interpretation...

"If Saturn is out of sect in this place (or as lord of this place), it is an indicator of difficulty in understanding one's marriage partner, or adversaries are able to conceal their true intentions (especially if many degrees of the descendant be below the horizon) and the native may be in abject circumstances in old age. In either case modern astrologers show this to be a contributing cause of May-December romances and marriages, and those who marry late in life."
I shouldn't be suprised by this... I suppose my trouble lies in that I really want to understand... everything! That's what's so difficult in relationships, you really don't completely understand the other person. This is probably then a fear of mine...

Now, looking @your Moon (Emotion, Feeling), the ruler of the 1st (and Saturn), is at 17 Gemini, Peregrine, in sect. But again, Moon is not so strong in your chart.

Moon in the 12th interpretation...

"the native has a tendency to neglect their true feelings. Often they are not even aware of them. This is an indicator of problems in empathizing with womens issues and getting along with them, especially in a man's chart. In either case, they are likely to hide their feelings and are usually uncomfortable around intense displays of emotion."

Moon aka the ruler of the 1st interpretation...

"You will likely be close to your mother and will have a very sensitive, nurturing, and somewhat moody disposition. This position makes an individual desirious of acceptance, looking for a place to belong, often seeking approval.
Like I mentioned above, I can relate to both of these descriptions. In the first description, I do think I have empathy... However, this characteristic developed later. The second is pretty spot on.

Thanks d00dle!
 
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