Aquarius and the Revolutionary Archetype

Lykanized

Well-known member
I want to understand why Aquarius is associated with revolutionary ideas and dismantling previously laid structures. Reason being, it's ruled by Saturn and it's also a fixed modality sign. I got into a bit of an argument with someone, granted, that was on twitter so I don't think their opinion was based on deeper analysis, but I'd still love to dig deeper and understand where this association came from


The way I understand it, cardinality is inception and creation, new ideas, change; mutability is adapting those new ideas and creations, and fixed energy is about seeing the vision through, but now really about inception or creation of bringing in new structures nor breaking down old ones
 

Lykanized

Well-known member
Aquarius is co-ruled by Mercury with triplicity by night.
I'm quite a novice, would you mind explaining triplicity and how Aquarius is coruled by Mercury?
I'd also be interested in knowing what the other signs are coruled by involving triplicity. Are there links to this information?


Also, would you say Mercury is a planet of inception of new ideas rather than pure analysis of already present ideas?
 

petosiris

Banned
I'm quite a novice, would you mind explaining triplicity and how Aquarius is coruled by Mercury?
I'd also be interested in knowing what the other signs are coruled by involving triplicity. Are there links to this information?


Also, would you say Mercury is a planet of inception of new ideas rather than pure analysis of already present ideas?

The triplicities according to Ptolemy, Cardanus, Lilly and some Hellenistic and Renaissance astrologers:
Aries, Leo and Sagittarius are triplicity of Sun by day and Jupiter by night
Taurus, Virgo and Capricorn are triplicity of Venus by day and Moon by night
Gemini, Libra and Aquarius are triplicity of Saturn by day and Mercury by night
Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces are triplicity of Mars both by day and by night (according to Ptolemy, Venus is cooperating by day and Moon is cooperating by night)

The triplicities according to Dorotheus, Bonatti and most Hellenistic and Medieval astrologers:
Aries, Leo and Sagittarius are triplicity of Sun by day and Jupiter by night, with Saturn cooperating
Taurus, Virgo and Capricorn are triplicity of Venus by day and Moon by night, with Mars cooperating
Gemini, Libra and Aquarius are triplicity of Saturn by day and Mercury by night, with Jupiter cooperating
Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces are triplicity of Venus by day and Mars by night, with Moon cooperating

To the last question - yes, Mercury is the most changeable and innovative planet ''In particular, he is above all stimulating, and in predictions concerning men is keen and very practical, ingenious in any situation'' - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/2B*.html#8.
 
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Bunraku

Well-known member
structures nor breaking down old ones

Isn't that what Saturn is about? Structures? :joyful:
Not one sign is an expert at that. You can find people who want to reform of all signs :tongue:

They are also called human signs

Humane Signs

- those represented by human figures: Gemini, Virgo, Libra and Aquarius. (Libra is included on the assumption that the scales are held by a human hand). They are renowned for their social graces and intellectual skills. Also referred to as 'manly' or 'courteous' signs.

-Skyscript

They are also of the Sanguine temperament
http://www.medievalastrologyguide.com/medieval-temperament.html

Wikipedia:
Sanguine personality type is described primarily as being highly talkative, enthusiastic, active, and social. Sanguines tend to be more extroverted and enjoy being part of a crowd; they find that being social, outgoing, and charismatic is easy to accomplish.[2][3] Individuals with this personality have a hard time doing nothing and engage in more risk seeking behavior.[2]

 

petosiris

Banned
The images are based on the constellations, not on the tropical months, that is why I didn't mention them. The sanguine temperament of the so-called airy triplicity is a medieval invention and doesn't suit Saturn nor Mercury in any way imo.
 

Lykanized

Well-known member
Isn't that what Saturn is about? Structures? :joyful:
Not one sign is an expert at that. You can find people who want to reform of all signs :tongue:

They are also called human signs

Humane Signs

- those represented by human figures: Gemini, Virgo, Libra and Aquarius. (Libra is included on the assumption that the scales are held by a human hand). They are renowned for their social graces and intellectual skills. Also referred to as 'manly' or 'courteous' signs.

-Skyscript

They are also of the Sanguine temperament
http://www.medievalastrologyguide.com/medieval-temperament.html

Wikipedia:
Sanguine personality type is described primarily as being highly talkative, enthusiastic, active, and social. Sanguines tend to be more extroverted and enjoy being part of a crowd; they find that being social, outgoing, and charismatic is easy to accomplish.[2][3] Individuals with this personality have a hard time doing nothing and engage in more risk seeking behavior.[2]

Yeah, structures, but not about dismantling them. I could see how fixed air might be rebellious toward structures, but not necessarily inclined to change or dismantle them


But you're right. Reformers come from all signs. I'm really just trying to understand the archetypes. The person I talked to implied that Aquarians are the ones to come up with new ideas while other signs(they mentioned Leos) latched onto them and got recognition for those ideas. Their friend tagteamed on me and also said that Aquarians are the ones who want to break tradition and that other signs can try to tap into that, but Aquarians have the greater monopoly on it


I just don't think that's true. My view was that reformers can be born of all signs. But I don't understand why reform is associated solely with Aquarians. I considered perhaps Aquarians proliferate that archetype since many people approach astrology from the standpoint of satisfying their ego rather than digging deeper


Apparently that association came in with the discovery of Uranus, but I see Aquarians as Saturn ruled. And being fixed signs, I don't think that aides in bringing in new structures


Actually, now that I think about it, I think Aquarian nature could be geared toward dismantling structures, but not necessarily creating new ones
 

sworm09

Well-known member
I want to understand why Aquarius is associated with revolutionary ideas and dismantling previously laid structures. Reason being, it's ruled by Saturn and it's also a fixed modality sign. I got into a bit of an argument with someone, granted, that was on twitter so I don't think their opinion was based on deeper analysis, but I'd still love to dig deeper and understand where this association came from


The way I understand it, cardinality is inception and creation, new ideas, change; mutability is adapting those new ideas and creations, and fixed energy is about seeing the vision through, but now really about inception or creation of bringing in new structures nor breaking down old ones

Of note is the fact that Saturn was associated with iconoclastic and subversive traits. Saturn was often presented as that weirdo who hangs out at the edge of town. Aquarius is a human sign and airy, having to do with people. It's also a vocal sign.

Put that together and we get a social reject who is vocal about his weirdness and gathers together other weird people to do weird things. It's a fixed sign so they don't want to have to change from their weirdness. I think any reform is by accident rather than by design.

The difference between Capricorn and Aquarius comes down to the element I believe. Capricorn knows how to stop talking and put its head down, Aquarius doesn't and is pretty loud about how excluded it is.
 

Lykanized

Well-known member
Of note is the fact that Saturn was associated with iconoclastic and subversive traits. Saturn was often presented as that weirdo who hangs out at the edge of town. Aquarius is a human sign and airy, having to do with people. It's also a vocal sign.

Put that together and we get a social reject who is vocal about his weirdness and gathers together other weird people to do weird things. It's a fixed sign so they don't want to have to change from their weirdness. I think any reform is by accident rather than by design.

The difference between Capricorn and Aquarius comes down to the element I believe. Capricorn knows how to stop talking and put its head down, Aquarius doesn't and is pretty loud about how excluded it is.
Intriguing.. do you have any links to info on Saturn? I've never heard it was associated with iconoclasm and the such


but I can see what you're saying. Aquarius observes the structures in place and sees what wrong with them, what doesn't work, what they despise in the structures. It seems to me Aquarians yearn to be a part of humanity but they see where they don't fit. Since they're a fixed sign, they don't immediately think to change the structures, they just feel isolated and 'different'?
 

Lykanized

Well-known member
And yet, no human fits within the structures in place. But it's Aquarians that recognize that incongruity so acutely?
But that doesn't yield necessarily revolutionary change or ideas, most often is results in fixating on feeling different and alien rather than on reshaping the world around them
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
And yet, no human fits within the structures in place.

But it's Aquarians that recognize that incongruity so acutely?
Saturn-ruled Aquarius is just one of the signs that acutely recognise incongruity :smile:

But that doesn't yield necessarily revolutionary change or ideas,
most often is results in fixating on feeling different and alien
rather than on reshaping the world around them

'.....Mercury’s nature is to contest and to destabilize....'

Robert Schmidt - died December 2018
Project Hindsight http://www.projecthindsight.com/
 

sworm09

Well-known member
Intriguing.. do you have any links to info on Saturn? I've never heard it was associated with iconoclasm and the such


but I can see what you're saying. Aquarius observes the structures in place and sees what wrong with them, what doesn't work, what they despise in the structures. It seems to me Aquarians yearn to be a part of humanity but they see where they don't fit. Since they're a fixed sign, they don't immediately think to change the structures, they just feel isolated and 'different'?

No specific quotes, just more of a running theme. I'd recommend picking up Ben Dyke's translation of Abu Ma'shar and al-Qabisi along with a copy of his Traditional Astrology for Today if you're new to traditional astrology. His books are a constant reference for me. Ibn Ezra's Beginning of Wisdom is also good and to the point. Oh yeah and Chris Brennan's book on Hellenistic Astrology is a must own. If you had to pick just two get Ben Dyke's Introductions to Traditional Astrology and Chris' book........way off topic......

Springboarding off of JupiterAsc, Robert Schmidt and Chris Brennan, drawing on Rhetorius say that Saturn's essential nature is to "reject" and "exclude". This is opposed to the Sun which "selects" and the Moon which "receives.

From this we can get the idea that Saturn's basic nature is to say "no" to things and push them away. There's kind of a weird political analogy you can see in the texts. For example the Sun represents those in charge. Almost all of the ancient authorites say that the Sun represents the king. The Moon represents "crowds" according to Valens. Jupiter represents morality, the law, and the church, things that uphold society. Venus represents peace, public benefactors (that one is straight from Valens), and trust between people....once again upholding society. Venus and Jupiter support society i.e. the Sun and Moon.


(Ignoring Mercury who can go either way) What of Mars and Saturn? Well Mars represents those who break the law outright. Ibn Ezra says that Mars relates to rebellion. Saturn represents isolation and Abu Ma'shar even says that it represents hermits, those who isolate themselves from society and don't mingle with people.

That's the important thing with Saturn, Saturn outright rejects society as a whole. This could be intentional or unintentional as Saturn also refers to exile and humiliation. An interesting connection to this is the way most authors talk about Saturn, calling him stinking, dirty, dim, and solitary. Compare that to his opposite, the luminous, public, visible, clean Sun. The idea here is that Saturn is so far removed from the norms of whatever the Sun represents that image doesn't matter, hence dirtiness, dullness, and isolation.

Take that planet and give it rulership over a human sign and the familiar image of Aquarius starts to show up. Compare that to the beastial sign Capricorn which doesn't even bother. The traditional view of Aquarius is a lot less socially progressive than that of the modern astrologers. Aquarius is outside of the system, sure, but that doesn't necessarily translate to progressive ideals. ANYONE on the fringes of society is Saturnian. Yeah I'm saying it, Saturn even rules neckbeards and incels.
 
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Lykanized

Well-known member
I think the confusion here I had with this individual is that, from what I'm reading here, Aquarius is more about recognizing what's wrong and rejecting it, but not necessarily transforming it
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I think the confusion here I had with this individual is
that,


from what I'm reading here,
Aquarius is more about recognizing what's wrong and rejecting it,
but not necessarily transforming it
keep in mind that "What's wrong"
or
"that which is considered wrong"
is a value judgement
and value judgements are based on multiple variable factors

such as
cultural value judgements
religious value judgements
and so on

sworm09 highlights that traditionally, Saturn rejects and excludes


No specific quotes, just more of a running theme. I'd recommend picking up Ben Dyke's translation of Abu Ma'shar and al-Qabisi along with a copy of his Traditional Astrology for Today if you're new to traditional astrology. His books are a constant reference for me. Ibn Ezra's Beginning of Wisdom is also good and to the point. Oh yeah and Chris Brennan's book on Hellenistic Astrology is a must own. If you had to pick just two get Ben Dyke's Introductions to Traditional Astrology and Chris' book........way off topic......
Springboarding off of JupiterAsc, Robert Schmidt and Chris Brennan,
drawing on Rhetorius say that
Saturn's essential nature is to "reject" and "exclude".
This is opposed to the Sun which "selects"
and the Moon which "receives.
From this we can get the idea
that Saturn's basic nature is to say "no" to things
and push them away.
There's kind of a weird political analogy you can see in the texts. For example the Sun represents those in charge. Almost all of the ancient authorites say that the Sun represents the king. The Moon represents "crowds" according to Valens. Jupiter represents morality, the law, and the church, things that uphold society. Venus represents peace, public benefactors (that one is straight from Valens), and trust between people....once again upholding society. Venus and Jupiter support society i.e. the Sun and Moon.
(Ignoring Mercury who can go either way) What of Mars and Saturn? Well Mars represents those who break the law outright. Ibn Ezra says that Mars relates to rebellion.

Saturn represents isolation

and Abu Ma'shar even says that it represents hermits,
those who isolate themselves from society
and don't mingle with people.

That's the important thing with Saturn,
Saturn outright rejects society as a whole.

This could be intentional
or unintentional
as Saturn also refers to exile and humiliation.

An interesting connection to this is the way most authors talk about Saturn, calling him stinking, dirty, dim, and solitary. Compare that to his opposite, the luminous, public, visible, clean Sun. The idea here is that Saturn is so far removed from the norms of whatever the Sun represents that image doesn't matter, hence dirtiness, dullness, and isolation.

Take that planet and give it rulership over a human sign and the familiar image of Aquarius starts to show up. Compare that to the beastial sign Capricorn which doesn't even bother. The traditional view of Aquarius is a lot less socially progressive than that of the modern astrologers. Aquarius is outside of the system, sure, but that doesn't necessarily translate to progressive ideals. ANYONE on the fringes of society is Saturnian. Yeah I'm saying it, Saturn even rules neckbeards and incels.
 

Lykanized

Well-known member
keep in mind that "What's wrong"
or
"that which is considered wrong"
is a value judgement
and value judgements are based on multiple variable factors

such as
cultural value judgements
religious value judgements
and so on

sworm09 highlights that traditionally, Saturn rejects and excludes
Makes sense
Explains why Aquarius isnt outright revolutionary or idiosyncratic. Rejection is simply defining the self by what it isn't, not creating an entirely new framework
 

Lykanized

Well-known member
SATURN rejects and excludes - not Aquarius :smile:
But then Aquarius is Saturn ruled and I can see that very clearly in observing Aquarians
Yeah I know, it's a lot more complex than just ruling planets, but I'm just trying to get to the core of it. I can see Aquarians tend to fall into this "nobody understands me" mentality. Probably has to do with that rejection aspect. So they observe and reject and see discrepancy between them and what they observe, but that's their fixed nature. It's not about changing, but about recognizing what needs changing
 
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