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Modern Astrology For discussions on Modern Astrology only. (Note: Typically, modern astrology is defined as using techniques developed around the late 1800s by Theosophists. Specifically it relies on psychological, evolutionary, karmic, and non-western interpretation approaches and includes Neptune, Uranus and Pluto, and non-Ptolemaic aspects. The focus is more on psychological chart interpretation instead of prediction.)


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  #1  
Unread 07-11-2018, 09:49 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Pluto in modern astrology

The greatest schism between Traditional and Modern-astrology is the interpretation of Pluto as a major Astrological Planet, because Pluto replaces Saturn as the outermost major indicator for Modern. Although I do consider Pluto as one of the "Big Ten", I'm not comfortable with the standard, Modern descriptions of its effect on a Chart. And, although I'm not against the theory that the 3 outer-Planets are "higher octaves" of the closer, more personal Planets , I don't subscribe to it myself. Each Planet has its own nature in terms of its effects, and shouldn't need to be seen as an extension of another. I think that we haven't fully understood what Pluto's really about, and that making definite statements in that regard is premature.


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Unread 07-14-2018, 04:21 PM
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Re: Pluto in Modern and Traditional astrology

I have tried to study Pluto with attention since I realized often major events of my life include it.

I'm not satisfied with the modern symbolic comprehension of it, though I find awesome that so many people have already studied it based on the experience of transits - what doesn't mean I can say I understand it... I believe intensity and transformation are indeed related, but those two words are still too much vague.

I started each time to find more interesting the appeal to associate it with Bharani Nakshatra and the mythology of Yama - Jamshid.

Richness, power, accumulated energy, invisibility, wiseness, intensity - the Graal (cup of Jamshid) and Alchemy, etc.
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Unread 02-20-2019, 12:58 PM
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Pluto's place in modern astrology

All,

This thread is about Pluto's place in modern astrology, so discussions about whether or not Pluto is an astrological planet are irrelevant. Please stay on topic. If you want to discuss traditional astrology, do it on the traditional astrology Forum.

Back on topic,

Tim
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Unread 02-21-2019, 07:45 AM
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Re: Pluto in modern astrology

Same here. I'm very much tired of reading how Pluto is about death, Sex, obsession lol. If its a higher octave hows that higher??

I think Pluto is a collective planet and we can transform something just by observing it differently. And this is very plutonian- transformation. Pluto can dig out that little nasty worm in your psyche that keeps ruining your life so that you can heal it and remove it. Yet everyone is stuck on the nasty aspects.

I think this is due perhaps modern generation expecting things to happen easy and not willing to work for something be it your own self.

It's still mind bogging to me that people fear planets and act as if things are out of their control. This is where pluto steps in. And yeah it might be a little painful to come to that realization that no one else is responsible for your life than you. Not even planets lol.

Hence why traditional astrology doesnt have Pluto cos they still believe Planets rule their life.
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  #5  
Unread 04-14-2019, 09:03 AM
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Re: Pluto in modern astrology

For about thirty years after Pluto was discovered, astrologers were mostly silent about its properties. It took thirty years of study before its properties began to be discussed and incorporated into natal chart interpretation. The other two outer planets suggested a collective meaning outside any other meanings, and Pluto shares this quality. The collective planets tend to track the trends in society.

I think danger is a good keyword for Pluto. You can start there. It often confers a facility upon someone, which might be used to advantage against others, and there are warnings about such misuse of Pluto. Its transits have an element of danger.

Many speak of power with Pluto, but such discussions of power often refer to power over others, or domination. I believe domination is corruption, not power, and corruption is another keyword for Pluto. Power is the capacity to do what you wish, and the capacity to keep yourself under control. It is safer to express Pluto as the power to do what you wish, and the power to keep yourself under control than to express Pluto as domination. Pluto may be central to self-knowledge.

Manipulation is just a subtle play for domination. One often sees the "tyranny of the weak" when a manipulator "uses psychology" to pull your strings and tamper with your free will by pretending a weakness or a wound that has been manufactured for effect.

Pluto is metaphysical. It contains information about how the universe works. It suggests that there is more to life and reality than we currently know. Those with Pluto angular have penetrating insight into this. They may feel that they are spiritual leaders. Strangely, Pluto is strong in many religious fundamentalists and in those who wander rather close to fanaticism. It tends to extremes.

Astrologers noted the correspondence between Pluto and transformation.

Last edited by Cary2; 04-14-2019 at 09:24 AM. Reason: grammar
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  #6  
Unread 04-14-2019, 09:42 AM
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Smile Re: Pluto in modern astrology

"Life after death." If you live believing in that, it definitely changes one's perspective. Isaac Asimov was a firm believer that life entirely ends with the death of the material body. Have you checked his chart relative to Pluto?
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Unread 04-14-2019, 09:52 AM
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Re: Pluto in modern astrology

He has Sun oppose Pluto.
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Unread 04-14-2019, 10:18 AM
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Smile Re: Pluto in modern astrology

Billy Graham, who baptized Bob Dylan, had Sun in Scorpio close trine Venus in Cancer, wide (8 degree Orb) trine Pluto. Asimov was Sun, Moon, Saturn in Earth, Capricorn, Taurus, Virgo. That might also account for his materialistic attitude.

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Unread 04-14-2019, 01:30 PM
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Re: Pluto in modern astrology

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Billy Graham, who baptized Bob Dylan, had Sun in Scorpio close trine Venus in Cancer, wide (8 degree Orb) trine Pluto. Asimov was Sun, Moon, Saturn in Earth, Capricorn, Taurus, Virgo. That might also account for his materialistic attitude.
Yeah, I agree.

Pluto is not proof of life after death, but Pluto tends to rule that area of speculation and research. Pluto seems to encourage exploration into that area. For some scientists, I think their interest in certain non-metaphysical topics may be part of Pluto's influence.

Atheism is a sensible approach; it doesn't cause me alarm or distaste. I'm not triggered by an antheistic thesis. But in the modern world, we have scientific investigations that suggest that a spirit world exists, so scientists are obligated by the scientific method to investigate credibly into that research before they decry such things. Some of the professional doubters are in fact professional hecklers. Some of the crowd who declare their disbelief in things that make them uncomfortable, are in fact fanatics of their own pet theories and superstitions, and they love to offend those who disagree. If you go to James Randi's site, you will be bowled over by the vitriol and gleeful defamation that colors the discourse. This is bigotry, and I am very critical of this.

I had a discussion with a physicist a couple of years ago who expressed bitter distaste for his colleagues who were deep into the quantum mechanical sector of his art. "They're just foolin' around.", he said. He is as afraid and indignant as any bigot. Like many scientists today, he is clinging to 19th century Newtonian physics that encouraged the world to believe that the universe is a lifeless place, essentially, where the various litter collide randomly without purpose. Many of them even insist that consciousness is impossible. Quantum mechanics proves that consciousness exists, and their formulae insert it into their equations. They have proof of consciousness, but many of their colleagues look away and whistle.

To see how fractured the world of science is, see The Fall of the House of Skeptics by Chris Carter. I found the book very entertaining, clear, and plausible with his sources cited.

Last edited by Cary2; 04-14-2019 at 05:22 PM. Reason: grammar
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Unread 04-14-2019, 04:35 PM
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Re: Pluto in modern astrology

Among other things Pluto symbolizes Compulsion. A person under compulsion, whether its source is external or internal, may find it a bit tricky to regulate their "Pluto" and guide him toward his more positive expressions.

Hades rules the Underworld, that which is buried, unseen. Pluto acts out of, from, the Unconscious realm. We cannot control that which lies beyond consciousness.

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Unread 04-16-2019, 04:29 PM
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Re: Pluto in modern astrology

Pluto's astrological significance can be derived, or extracted, from the astronomical facts relating to the planet.

The fact that Pluto's orbital plane is in extreme inclination to the ecliptic holds meaning. Pluto-Charon is the solar system's only binary planet: there is astrological meaning in that.

Jupiter is our biggest planet, so he symbolizes all things big, expansive...like whales, elephants, balloons, bounty. Apply the same sort of thinking to Pluto.
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Unread 04-16-2019, 05:22 PM
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Re: Pluto in modern astrology

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Pluto's astrological significance can be derived, or extracted, from the astronomical facts relating to the planet.

The fact that Pluto's orbital plane is in extreme inclination to the ecliptic holds meaning. Pluto-Charon is the solar system's only binary planet: there is astrological meaning in that.

Jupiter is our biggest planet, so he symbolizes all things big, expansive...like whales, elephants, balloons, bounty. Apply the same sort of thinking to Pluto.
Isn't Earth binary for the same reason? The Moon doesn't orbit Earth; but both Earth and Moon orbit the barycenter.

Last edited by Cary2; 04-16-2019 at 06:02 PM. Reason: grammar
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Unread 04-16-2019, 05:28 PM
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Smile Re: Pluto in modern astrology

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Isn't Earth binary for the same reason? The Moon doesn't orbit Earth; but both Earth and Moon orbit the baycenter.
The Sun orbits a barycenter also, caused by the orbiting Planets, especially Jupiter. I'm wondering if that causes a slight, periodic Solar retrograde movement due to the nutation.
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Unread 04-16-2019, 11:14 PM
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Re: Pluto in modern astrology

The barycenter of Earth-Moon lies within the Earth. Not so with Pluto-Charon.
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Unread 04-17-2019, 04:03 AM
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Smile Re: Pluto in modern astrology

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The barycenter of Earth-Moon lies within the Earth. Not so with Pluto-Charon.
The Sun's barycenter comes outside when Jupiter comes a'knockin'.
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Unread 04-18-2019, 12:20 AM
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Re: Pluto in modern astrology

True, but you are comparing apples and oranges. Sun-Jupiter is the relationship of planet to star. With Pluto-Charon it is a single planetary system, which is therefore binary in nature, and this fact acquires significance in delineation.
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Unread 04-18-2019, 06:02 AM
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Smile Re: Pluto in modern astrology

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True, but you are comparing apples and oranges. Sun-Jupiter is the relationship of planet to star. With Pluto-Charon it is a single planetary system, which is therefore binary in nature, and this fact acquires significance in delineation.
Actually, I agree with you about P!uto. Makes for a different dynamic. My comment about the Sun involves the possibility that the Sun has occasional retrograde movement as it orbits its baricenter, due to what's known as Nutation. So, if that's the case, any one of us could have Sun retrograde! Feeling lazy, one could blame it on that!

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Unread 06-05-2020, 12:36 AM
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Re: Pluto in modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Pluto's astrological significance can be derived, or extracted, from the astronomical facts relating to the planet.

The fact that Pluto's orbital plane is in extreme inclination to the ecliptic holds meaning. Pluto-Charon is the solar system's only binary planet: there is astrological meaning in that.

Jupiter is our biggest planet, so he symbolizes all things big, expansive...like whales, elephants, balloons, bounty. Apply the same sort of thinking to Pluto.
I think this was a fascinating conversation that I wish the senior members here had taken up!

Pluto as a double-Planet is always at the forefront of my mind, and I'd really like to hear ideas on the ramifications of that for Pluto's meaning and influence.

I understand its inclination to the ecliptic, but really have no experience yet reading about that as a facet for astrology.
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Unread 06-05-2020, 05:01 PM
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Re: Pluto in modern astrology

I'm a Pluto M.C. with Regulus, Scorpio rising, it has always pushed me to delve into secrets regarding religion.
It has burned away things in my life, to start something new, it hurts but i'm not afraid of its influence, transformation isn't bad!
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Unread 06-10-2020, 12:57 PM
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Smile Re: Pluto in modern astrology

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I'm a Pluto M.C. with Regulus, Scorpio rising, it has always pushed me to delve into secrets regarding religion.
It has burned away things in my life, to start something new, it hurts but i'm not afraid of its influence, transformation isn't bad!
Since I include the legendary Egyptian phoenix as the higher avatar of the Sign known as Scorpio, having the Phoenix rising at the intersection of the Sun's geocentric path around the Earth with the Eastern Horizon at dawn is....rather significant to me in that regard.

Rising reborn from the ashes of a fire of your own making is a unique form of transformation.
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Unread 02-20-2021, 06:47 AM
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Post Re: Pluto in modern astrology

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The Sun orbits a barycenter also, caused by the orbiting Planets, especially Jupiter. I'm wondering if that causes a slight, periodic Solar retrograde movement
It turns out that the Sun is only ever retrograde with respect to the solar system barycenter, if it's viewed from a relatively fixed point in space, such as another star. Viewed from any planet, the Sun and its barycenter will always be moving direct.

That's because the Sun's movement around the barycenter is slow, on about a 12 year cycle. Jupiter is the most massive planet, so Sun and Jupiter effectively orbit each other. Saturn is the next most massive planet, and when it aligns with Jupiter it tends to pull the Sun farther away from the barycenter, and when it opposes Jupiter it tends to pull the Sun towards it. The result is the Sun makes little loops in about a 20 year cycle (which is the period of Jupiter Saturn Conjunctions which happen every 20 years). Uranus is the third most massive planet, and its motion tends to distort the loops making them larger or smaller. The effect of all three planets on the Sun can be seen in the following diagram, showing the Sun's motion with respect to the barycenter over time:



In summary, because the motion is so slow and the Sun and barycenter are so close to each other, that's why both will always appear to be moving direct from any orbiting planet. Even outer bodies like Neptune and Sedna still move fast enough that it will make them always appear direct.

Astrolog supports computing the solar system barycenter as well as the physical Sun's body, and can display both at once for comparison. (And for Pluto, Astrolog can compute the position of Pluto's actual body, it's moon Charon's body, and compare both to the Pluto planetary system barycenter, the latter of which is what most programs are limited to computing.) For example, I can reproduce the solar system barycenter diagram above in Astrolog's orbit chart, which can track the orbital movements of objects:

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Unread 03-20-2021, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post
I'm a Pluto M.C. with Regulus, Scorpio rising, it has always pushed me to delve into secrets regarding religion.
It has burned away things in my life, to start something new, it hurts but i'm not afraid of its influence, transformation isn't bad!
I have Pluto on the MC with Scorpio rising. Transformation seems to be in order regularly. Also, Pluto controls explosive events, whether they are car accidents or arguments.

A T Mann in The Round Art describes its affects as explosive. I would agree.
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Unread 03-21-2021, 06:14 AM
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Smile Re: Pluto in modern astrology

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Originally Posted by Opal View Post
I have Pluto on the MC with Scorpio rising. Transformation seems to be in order regularly. Also, Pluto controls explosive events, whether they are car accidents or arguments.

A T Mann in The Round Art describes its affects as explosive. I would agree.

What happened to "Transformational"? This sounds more like Shiva the destroyer, which is one visage of Saturn, when in Aspect to Mars..
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Unread 03-21-2021, 06:25 AM
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Smile Re: Pluto in modern astrology

Pluto was derived from ancient Egypt's most influential deity, Osris. It's about what happens AFTER death, not what causes it. And, it's about our living connection to how best to prepare ourselves for inevitable death.

Krishna Murti used to say that "we have to die" to things that are holding us back from enlightenment. That's more where Pluto comes into it. [IMO]

Last edited by david starling; 03-21-2021 at 06:27 AM.
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Unread 03-21-2021, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Pluto was derived from ancient Egypt's most influential deity, Osris. It's about what happens AFTER death, not what causes it. And, it's about our living connection to how best to prepare ourselves for inevitable death.

Krishna Murti used to say that "we have to die" to things that are holding us back from enlightenment. That's more where Pluto comes into it. [IMO]
I agree totally with the second paragraph. Shiva, the destroyer. There are things that should be destroyed, in order to transform. They have to die figuratively to enable that.

Shiva is my favourite god. His eyes, his ceremony. Bhang, bhang.
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