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  #1  
Unread 10-13-2020, 11:27 AM
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Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

It痴 one of the first questions in Lilly and very detailed too.

Any example charts?

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  #2  
Unread 10-13-2020, 04:39 PM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

I had understood it was an unanswerable question.
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Unread 10-13-2020, 05:01 PM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post


I had understood it was an unanswerable question.

There is a distinction between whether the question is
NATAL
or
an HORARY

i.e.
there are multiple NATAL "...length of life techniques."
detailed by VETTIUS VALENS in THE ANTHOLOGY
Translated from original Ancient Greek by Professor Mark Riley
generously provided FREE to view at https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf


HOWEVER



for an HORARY question

- the matter would concern a person with

for example a "...terminal illness..."


.
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Unread 10-13-2020, 07:34 PM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

In horary or natal? I've done it in natal and I remember getting 76 years. Interestingly the SR for that year has Sun opp. Mars across the horizon - Out of sect Malefic challenging the planet of life-form. I might do it again for the hell of it since its been so long
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Unread 10-15-2020, 07:09 PM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
I had understood it was an unanswerable question.
From what I could recall, in the past it was difficult because not everyone could have access to an astrologer to get a chart drawn, or someone keeping track at the time of birth.

So people would go to horary for answers, that includes health, life, what they will enjoy the most in life, what part of life is likely the best for him/her, and accidents/death, etc..

I put it in the attachment. It’s the first thing that Lilly writes in his horary.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Lilly.jpg (66.3 KB, 5 views)
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Unread 10-15-2020, 07:17 PM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
In horary or natal? I've done it in natal and I remember getting 76 years. Interestingly the SR for that year has Sun opp. Mars across the horizon - Out of sect Malefic challenging the planet of life-form. I might do it again for the hell of it since its been so long
Want to ask one for horary痴 sake?

1st house delineations:
  • How long will I live?
  • Where (what direction of the world) will I enjoy life the most?
  • What part of life will be the best?
  • What accidents have/will happen?
  • When?
"
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  #7  
Unread 10-15-2020, 07:17 PM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

Lilly writes in very vague terms, of long life.
Actually I think those who will have a long life feel it inside themselves. They already know.
Do yo find this?
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  #8  
Unread 10-15-2020, 07:22 PM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
Lilly writes in very vague terms, of long life.
Actually I think those who will have a long life feel it inside themselves. They already know.
Do yo find this?
For this question, it is fine to be vague about it. I think is is more in the realm of vitality and health, rather than exact length of life methods like you find in natal.

And it痴 hard to say. People can be cocky and think they池e invincible, or the converse being always negative and think they値l always die soon.
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  #9  
Unread 10-15-2020, 07:23 PM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

What part of my life will be the most rewarding?

(spoiler note, this is prompted probably by your post, so not sure if it is valid as a chart. )
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File Type: jpg Screen Shot 2020-10-15 at 21.22.06.jpg (43.5 KB, 8 views)
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  #10  
Unread 10-15-2020, 07:39 PM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunraku View Post
From what I could recall, in the past it was difficult because not everyone could have access to an astrologer to get a chart drawn, or someone keeping track at the time of birth.

So people would go to horary for answers, that includes health, life, what they will enjoy the most in life, what part of life is likely the best for him/her, and accidents/death, etc..

I put it in the attachment. It痴 the first thing that Lilly writes in his horary.
the topic you highlight
is clearly intended for those who have no natal chart

and so resort to horary
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post

What part of my life will be the most rewarding?
(spoiler note, this is prompted probably by your post,
so not sure if it is valid as a chart. )
you have a timed natal chart
and so

your natal chart over rules any horary you create on the topic
simply because of the natal promise




.
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  #11  
Unread 10-15-2020, 07:46 PM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

In theory, if the hypothesis is valid, both the natal and the horary will correspond.
No?
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  #12  
Unread 10-15-2020, 07:47 PM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunraku View Post


For this question, it is fine to be vague about it.

I think is is more in the realm of vitality and health,
rather than exact length of life methods like you find in natal.

And it痴 hard to say. People can be cocky and think they池e invincible, or the converse being always negative and think they値l always die soon.

The "....realm of vitality and health..." is natal HYLEG and ALCOCODEN


https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...ad.php?t=46808


Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post


medieval technique of the "Giver of Life" (Hyleg) and the "Giver of Years" (Alcocoden), which according to the medieavls should give the amount of years of life to the native.
I will try firstly to give the example of the Hyleg and Alcocoden in the chart of the recently died pop diva Whitney Houston.


But first lets see what is Hyleg and Alcocoden.

Here is what Bernadettte Brady says about H & A:
Quote:
The Hyleg is a planet in the chart that fulfils certain conditions. Once found, it
signifies that life is present. Generally the planet痴 individual nature does not reflect
on the quality of this life force, but the presence of a Hyleg tells the astrologer that life
is granted to the horoscope. The astrologer will then look for the planet, which has a
certain relationship to the Hyleg, and this planet is called the Alcoccoden. The duty of
the Alcoccoden is to allocate the years or length of life. If there is no Hyleg in a chart,
there can be no Alcoccoden.


So, Hyleg and Alcocoden are showing the Vital Life Force of the native. They show how much years in life do you have according to the 'Esse' or the condition of your body and soul. With the modern medicine it seems out that this Esse is prolonged, but we will see how in the case of Whitney Houston this is almost exact.
If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have.


Here is the summary of the planets and points which can be potential Hylegs:

Quote:
In Day charts, we池e looking for the:
Sun above the horizon in a masculine quarter (11th or 10th), or
Sun above the horizon in a feminine quarter (7th, 9th) in a masculine sign, or
Moon below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th, 5th), or
Moon below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd, 3rd) in a feminine sign

In Night charts, we池e looking for the:
Moon above the horizon in a feminine quarter (9th, 7th), or
Moon above the horizon in a masculine quarter (10th, 11th) in a feminine sign, or
Sun below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd), or
Sun below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th or 5th) in a masculine sign


Potential hylegs are the Sun, Moon, Part of Fortune, Asc and SAN. Or instead of using
the PoF, Asc and SAN itself, you are to take the Lord of the place or the Almuten of the
place. Some instructions advise you to look for the Almuten of all these places.
As a general rule, the potential Hyleg must aspect at least one of its dignity rulers.
Ptolemy appears to be the only exception in this, preferring a planet with two or more
dignities and no aspect over a planet in aspect with only one dignity.
Alchabitius rejected the Moon as hyleg if she was under the Sun痴 beams. Heliodorus
rejected any planet as hyleg if it was USB (under the sun beams)


The Hyleg is the giver of life. Once it is found, we need to look for the Alcochoden
or giver of years.


(taken from the group Angelicus Merlin).
Lets take the example of Whitney Houston.
Attachment 26865

Her chart is a night chart so we first look for a potential Hyleg in the Moon.
Moon is under the Horizon in a night chart, so it can not be Hyleg.
Then we go to the Sun (in a day chart we first go with the Sun), the Sun is in cadent 6th house so it can not be Hyleg too.
Than we look at the Syzygy, or the last lunation prior the birth. In the Whitney's chart it was a Full Moon prior the birth so the chart is so called Preventional and we take the Pars Fortuna as potential Hyleg.
It is in 4th in Cancer.
We now look at the dispositors to see which dispositor takes the most dignity points at the degree in which the PoF is.
For that reason we take the dignity table, I will use here a table with triplicities according to Dorotheus and terms according to the egiptians.
Domicil ruler takes 5 points, exaltation ruler 4, triplicity ruler 3, term ruler 2 and face ruler 1 point.
Moon, domicil ruler = 5 points
Jupiter exaltation ruler 4 points
Mars, triplicity ruler 3 points
Venus, term ruler 2 points
Venus, face ruler 1 point.

Next we look if the Moon (as having the most points in that degree in which PoF is) is making some classical (conjunction, sextile, square, trine, opposition) aspect to the PoF. She is making a square to the Fortuna but it is in wide orbs (although in the moiety). Jupiter is out of orb. Venus is not in aspect. Mars is making a partile (exact) aspect to the PoF and we will take him instead of the Moon (because it is in partile aspect).

So, Part Of Fortune is a Hyleg in Whitney's chart and Mars is Alcocoden.

Next we look at the years table of the planets potential Alcocodens:
Attachment 26866

We see that the minor years of Mars are 15, Middle Years 40,5 and major years 66.
Mars is angular but in very week sign position (in Exile) so we will take its Middle years (40.5).
Next, we look at the aspects which Mars receives from the benefics and malefics.
If benefic aspects the Alcocoden with Con, sextile or trine adds its minor years as years and its middle years as months, weeks or days (according to the position in which lies).
If Malefic aspects the Alcocoden, subtract from the Alcocoden with its minor years and middle years as months, weeks or days.

Mars is aspecting the other malefic Saturn, but with trine (so this not subtract years because it is benevolent aspect).
Mars is making opposition with Jupiter but out of orb, and with opposition so this does not add to the years.
Mars is making a sextile to Venus and she can add her minor years.
So we add Venus' minor years (8), and her middle years as days (45), because she is cadent and combust. If she was in good position we would add her middle eyars as months.

So we have,
40.5years + 8years + 45 days = 48 years 7 months and 15 days.
Whitney lived 48 years 6 months and 2 days.
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Unread 10-15-2020, 07:50 PM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post


In theory, if the hypothesis is valid, both the natal
and the horary will correspond.
No?
In theory, the natal supercedes the horary
keep in mind that horary is valid for a limited time
i.e
for horary
same question may be asked after a lapse of a specific time
such as a year

.
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Unread 10-15-2020, 07:55 PM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
Lilly writes in very vague terms, of long life.
Actually I think those who will have a long life feel it inside themselves. They already know.
Do yo find this?
because mortality rate was extremly high. So lets say Henry 8th's wife gave birth to a son and she died 5 days later from a condition that is easily treatable in modern days. so our view of long life is different than back then. Also questions like will my spouse or I will live longer question is in reality is about one or the other being financially taken care of after spouse dies esp if it is a male.
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Unread 10-15-2020, 07:57 PM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunraku View Post
It痴 one of the first questions in Lilly and very detailed too.

Any example charts?
yes
http://gryphonastrology.com/blog/200...live%E2%80%9D/
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Unread 10-15-2020, 08:00 PM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

So I can ask if I'll live through this year?
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Unread 10-15-2020, 08:26 PM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post


So I can ask if I'll live through this year?

there is an obvious hierarchy of charts


MUNDANE astrological chart for your locality
overules your natal chart

and then
your natal chart over rules any horary you may ask

so

consult MUNDANE astrological chart
in tandem with NATAL
and HORARY


.
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Unread 10-15-2020, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
What part of my life will be the most rewarding?

(spoiler note, this is prompted probably by your post, so not sure if it is valid as a chart. )
By his method:
25-45

Mercury just recently retrograded. Are you reevaluating your current life circumstances?


Can you calculate the lot of fortune, please? Night formula
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Unread 10-15-2020, 09:34 PM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunraku View Post


By his method:
25-45

Mercury just recently retrograded. Are you reevaluating your current life circumstances?

Can you calculate the lot of fortune, please? Night formula

an horary is valid for a year at most

usually only months, sometimes days or weeks

and so

if one has a natal chart
then simply

apply the relevant method to natal


.
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Unread 10-15-2020, 09:37 PM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

Ascendant + Sun - Moon ??
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Unread 10-15-2020, 09:37 PM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunraku View Post
By his method:
25-45

Not sure about this.

Mercury just recently retrograded. Are you reevaluating your current life circumstances?

I'm always doing that !


Can you calculate the lot of fortune, please? Night formula
Isn't it on the chart? It's 4 cancer.
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Unread 10-15-2020, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
an horary is valid for a year at most

usually only months, sometimes days or weeks
Citation needed
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Unread 10-15-2020, 09:44 PM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

Is it just me or is that chart surprisingly more dramatic than what it needed to be?

Mercury being clever and crafty, avoided sextiling Venus, ruler of the 12th house and in the 4th. And by extension avoided having to deal with all those planets in the 8th.

Mercury being intelligent just said 哲O! and walked the other way

Last edited by Bunraku; 10-15-2020 at 09:46 PM.
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Unread 10-16-2020, 02:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunraku View Post
Want to ask one for horary痴 sake?

1st house delineations:
  • How long will I live?
  • Where (what direction of the world) will I enjoy life the most?
  • What part of life will be the best?
  • What accidents have/will happen?
  • When?
"
Eh, sure. I'm going to percolate on it and ask the question randomly in between now and Sunday. I'll work on the chart that I get and post the results in this thread.
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Unread 10-16-2020, 03:23 AM
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Re: Has anyone asked how long they値l live?

Okay. In general,it seemed like those series of questions were all asked in one go. Because if you were to travel from Berwick-upon-Tweed to London, then you better have come equipped with a lot of questions

Last edited by Bunraku; 10-16-2020 at 03:26 AM.
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