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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 06-19-2019, 09:55 AM
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The GREAT CONJUNCTION - Jupiter Saturn - The GREAT CHRONOCRATORS

To clarify a discussion commenced on another thread:

In ancient times Jupiter and Saturn were
the outermost known planets
and were called by astrologers of old the "Great Chronocrators".
For millennia
the alignment of these two planets
has been regarded
as a significator of great social
economic
and
political watersheds - historic turning points, if you will.
hence
referred to as
"The Great Conjunction"
clearly then
Juiter Saturn conjunctions have been charted for millenia
by MUNDANE ASTROLOGERS

by the way
Mundane astrology is very Hierarchical
thus
Starting with the Grand Conjunction
your Natal Chart would be 7th in the pecking order
and
Horary is below your Natal Chart
and is lowest on the Mundane Hierarchy


i.e.
MUNDANE ASTROLOGY HIERARCHY

Grand Conjunction 1702
21 May 1702
4:01:37 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York
074°W00'37"
40°N42'26"

Great Mutation (Earth) 1802
17 Jul 1802
5:52:26 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York

Great Conjunction 2000
28 May 2000
11:07:39 AM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York

Great Malefic 2004
25 May 2004
1:20 AM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York
....is currently the operating Malefic Chart
and then the following will become operative....
Great Malefic 2034
26 Jun 2034
5:33:42 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


2019 Aries Ingress
20 Mar 2019
Federal Hall, New York


INSERT YOUR NATAL CHART HERE
That is where your place is in the hierarchy of charts.
INSERT HORARY CHART HERE
That is where horary charts are in the hierarchy of charts

Note: Relocate the chart(s) to your country
and
for maximum accuracy, use the "foundation point"
eg: Romania = Alba Iulia, not Bucharesti
Japan = Kyoto, not Tokyo
Spain = Toledo, not Madrid
and so on

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #2  
Unread 07-03-2020, 07:29 PM
Tarooha Tarooha is offline
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Re: The GREAT CONJUNCTION - Jupiter Saturn - The GREAT CHRONOCRATORS

Hello. May I know what would this great conjunction means on a personal level? I will have this on the ascendant in Dec.

Last edited by Tarooha; 07-03-2020 at 07:32 PM.
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  #3  
Unread 07-03-2020, 09:26 PM
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Re: The GREAT CONJUNCTION - Jupiter Saturn - The GREAT CHRONOCRATORS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarooha View Post

Hello.
May I know what would this great conjunction means on a personal level?
I will have this on the ascendant in Dec.

these are instructions
HOW TO ATTACH A CHART
TO YOUR POST ON THE FORUM

https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/traditional-astrology

MOBILE
1) Once you generate the chart image using your favourite website, copy the image address
2) Upload the image to Imgur using the following URL:

https://imgur.com/upload
3) Once the chart is uploaded to Imgur, click on 'Copy' or 'Embed Post'
4) Paste the Imgur image location to forum post

Quote:
DESKTOP
1) Once you generate the chart image using your favourite website, copy the image address
2) Click on the Attachment icon (if you don't see it, select 'Advanced' posting first)
3) New window will open, paste the image address, click Upload button, close the window

if that is for some reason not possible
then
another option is, after creating the natal chart
then save the chart to your desktop
then when on the thread click to edit your post
then scroll down to the Attach Files box
then click on Manage Attachments
and follow the instructions on the screen to upload your chart that way
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #4  
Unread 07-04-2020, 07:05 AM
Tarooha Tarooha is offline
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Re: The GREAT CONJUNCTION - Jupiter Saturn - The GREAT CHRONOCRATORS

https://imgur.com/csyYoth

Here it is. Thank you so much.
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  #5  
Unread 07-04-2020, 09:31 AM
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Re: The GREAT CONJUNCTION - Jupiter Saturn - The GREAT CHRONOCRATORS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarooha View Post


https://imgur.com/csyYoth
Here it is. Thank you so much.


The link shows a natal chart with a very early ascendant
so early in fact
that if birth occurred LITERALLY FOURTEEN SECONDS EARLIER
then
ascendant would have been the previous sign
and is an excellent illustration
of the proviso that
the reliability of the timing of natal charts is ESSENTIAL

.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #6  
Unread 07-04-2020, 10:24 AM
Tarooha Tarooha is offline
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Re: The GREAT CONJUNCTION - Jupiter Saturn - The GREAT CHRONOCRATORS

I referred the time from my birth certificate. However, I am not really sure of the doctor’s practice in the operation room of how they count time of birth. By the way, I think it’s accurate enough hopefully.
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  #7  
Unread 07-04-2020, 10:52 AM
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Re: The GREAT CONJUNCTION - Jupiter Saturn - The GREAT CHRONOCRATORS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarooha View Post


I referred the time from my birth certificate.
However, I am not really sure of the doctor’s practice in the operation room
of how they count time of birth.
By the way, I think it’s accurate enough hopefully.
few if any natal charts are reliably timed
when in doubt consider rectification

all rectification techniques have the purpose of determining/establishing the Ascendant
because clearly
The Ascendant demarcates the time of birth


FREE Rectification Tips thread
- Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...=rectification


Keep in mind that rectification is approached differently by different astrologers
some astrologers use Sidereal
other astrologers use Tropical
and so
it is very important to have clarity
and question each astrologer as to whether that astrologer is using
Sidereal or Tropical
to avoid potential misunderstanding

rectification list of major life events to study
any academic rewards, degree, diplomas, exams passed
operations, hospital admissions of any kind, accidents
relocation to new home, relocation abroad
marriages, divorces
births of own children as well as births of siblings
deaths
starting first job, leaving old job, starting new job
legal issues involving court appearances
anything important

at least ten of these major events are required


to check the pre-natal epoch method
detailed instructions
on how to calculate the pre-natal Epoch Rectification Method
may be viewed FOR FREE at
http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm


THE PRENATAL EPOCH by E H Bailey
is available on amazon


many thanks to petosiris
for the following example rectification

using THRASYLLUS method
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...&postcount=343


Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post






Another example, with the newly elected Mexican President - https://www.astro.com/astro-databank..._Andres_Manuel

According to the AA source, the birth occurred at 2:00, quite unlikely, like most rounded off births. Let's use Thrasyllus' method again.

1) We determine the ascensional degrees from the Sun to the Moon. We mark 81 as the solar gnomon.
2) We determine the ascensional degrees from the degree opposite the Sun - this is 23.
3) We multiply 23 by 12 and again by the hour of the nativity, with the fractions. Since the birth occurred at the beginning of the ninth hour - 23 x 12 x 8 - 360 x 6 = 48 which is less than the solar gnomon.
4) We add 7 minutes to the time of birth and with 23 x 12 x 8.12 - 360 x 6 = 81 and we get the ''real'' Ascendant.

Jupiter is Lord of the Year and in the place of Good Daimon with Fortune. The Lightbringer also profects to its exaltation. Note that he was not elected with the same profections 12 years ago. Since the Ruler of the Peak was in the place of the Bad Daimon in the 2005 solar revolution, in this Revolution she is with Jupiter to the degree making a phase.

Since the rising time of Libra is 32.5, doubled it makes the stellium operative. And since the rising time of Gemini is 33 and of Virgo is 31.25, it makes the Jupiter square Mars productive of rank, politics and authority (as are the rising times of Virgo and Capricorn for that partile trine). And since half of the rising time of Gemini is 16.5 and 4 times the years of Jupiter = 64.5, it makes it even more operative.

And since the year is multiple of 5, which is the special interval point of Venus (inferior trine), it makes the profection of Jupiter and Fortune even stronger than the last one, and according to Valens ''The configurations of the stars and their aspects with each other (especially the aspects with the Lot of Fortune) are effective in the chronocratorships which are in harmony. (The whole is seen and arises from the aspects of the Lot of Fortune and from its ruler'' - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf
A Ptip from Ptolemy

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

In Ptolemy,
masculine planets make male babies, feminine planets make female babies.

But as sexist as trad goes, masculine planets are also taken as generally better, more active,
and generating their good or bad effects earlier in life.

Morning planets can indicate first-born siblings
compared to evening planets indicating younger siblings,
because of this.

It is also used by Ptolemy to judge sexuality
(if Sun, Moon, Mars and Venus are predominantly masculine in a female chart in most of these ways, they make lesbians,
in a male chart, an ''adulterous male'', and vice versa with feminine planets,
homosexual in a male chart, an ''adulterous female'' in a female chart).

He also says that Venus under the rays (or combust)
makes the woman play ''the part of mistress'', though I haven't checked that out.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #8  
Unread 07-04-2020, 10:57 AM
Tarooha Tarooha is offline
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Re: The GREAT CONJUNCTION - Jupiter Saturn - The GREAT CHRONOCRATORS

Thank you so much. I’ll learn about it and get my chart rectified.
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  #9  
Unread 07-04-2020, 06:06 PM
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Re: The GREAT CONJUNCTION - Jupiter Saturn - The GREAT CHRONOCRATORS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarooha View Post


Thank you so much. I’ll learn about it and get my chart rectified.
keep in mind that astrologers differ
and
rectification is an area of major differences of opinion
as illustrated by
the same celebrity's natal chart having multiple DIFFERENT ASCENDANTS
based on the opinion of the different astrologers
a RELIABLE source for rectification is
at http://www.martingansten.com/btr.php


.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #10  
Unread 02-22-2021, 10:21 AM
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Re: The GREAT CONJUNCTION - Jupiter Saturn - The GREAT CHRONOCRATORS

*





Jupiter and Saturn may both be regarded as generational planets
Jupiter takes 12 years to orbit Sun
and
Saturn requires 30 earth years to orbit Sun
- additionally, during their respective orbits of the Sun
Jupiter and Saturn are in conjunction only approximately every 20 years.

These specific spans of time

chime well with the accepted idea of “a generation”
being the span of time necessary before human beings are physically able
to produce a child of their own
in human terms, 'a generation' can be a variable
- that's because some produce offspring very early
and in many 'eastern' countries before their teens.

However, in 'the west' there is a tendency to initially focus on 'career'
before then producing offspring later in the 30's.
The middle ground would be those producing offspring in their 20's.
Based on those rather "rough and ready" spans of time then:

(1) A twelve year Jupiter orbit of the sun represents

those who are parents at an age considered in 'the west'
very young - i.e. 12

(2) A thirty year Saturn orbit of the sun represents

those who are parents at what is considered in 'the west'
to be a 'more responsible age' - i.e. 30

(3) A combination of the two planets in regular 20 year Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions

then represent the 'middle-ground' - i.e. 19/20

USUALLY a generation
averages about 25 years from the birth of a parent to the birth of a child
- although it varies case by case
it is generally accepted that the length of a generation
was closer to 20 years in earlier times
when humans mated younger
and life expectancies were shorter

Among present-day members

of a contemporary hunter-gatherer people
of Botswana and Namibia
whose lifestyle is relatively similar
to that of our Western pre-agricultural ancestors
the average age of mothers
at the birth of their first child was 20 years
and at the last birth 31
giving a mean of 25.5 years per female generation
which is considerably above the 20 years
commonly attributed to 'primitive cultures'.
Fathers were six to 13 years older than mothers
giving a male generational interval of 31 to 38 years.
(source: sociologist Nancy Howell)

Alternatively,
population geneticists Marc Tremblay and Hélène Vézina

found a generational interval, based on the years between parents’ and children’s marriages
to average 31.7 years
and
they determined that male generations averaged 35.0 years
while female generations averaged 28.7 years.
(source: 100 ascending Quebec genealogies)

A separate study by Biological anthropologist Agnar Helgason and colleagues
who used the Icelandic deCODE genetics database
to arrive at a female line interval of 28.12 years for the most recent generations
and 28.72 years for the whole lineage length.
Male line lineages showed a similar difference
—31.13 years for the recent generations
and 31.93 years overall.

For a more mathematically appealing average then

Helagason and fellow researchers recommended
estimating female generational line intervals at 30 years
and male generational intervals at 35 years
- based on the Quebec and Iceland studies.

We need to keep in mind
that current understandings in physical and biological sciences
are subject to change
as more data becomes available
and that data’s interpretation becomes more certain.

So, for now
when genealogists want to convert generations to years
and create probable date ranges, using an evidence-based generational interval
such as Helagason’s 30 and 35 years
- or even one developed based on your own family history research
may be the best solution.




.


__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #11  
Unread 03-19-2021, 01:46 PM
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Re: The GREAT CONJUNCTION - Jupiter Saturn - The GREAT CHRONOCRATORS

*


Jupiter's alignment with Saturn
occurs at intervals of just under 20 years
The aspect is occasionally repeated due to a retrograde
of one or both planets.
Each successive conjunction
not counting retrograde repeats
occurs at a mean advance of
approximately 243 degrees relative to its predecessor
although from one alignment to the next
this arc can vary considerably.

Every third conjunction
i.e.
once every 60 years
brings the alignment back
to its starting place, plus around 9 degrees:
this 60 year cycle is termed
FIRST ORDER RECURRENCE of the conjunction.

Every 40th conjunction - roughly once every 800 years -
brings the alignment back to within about 1 degree of its starting place:
this approximate 800 year cycle is termed SECOND ORDER RECURRENCE
aka GREAT MUTATION CYCLE






EXAMPLE IMAGE IS OF RECENT 2020 GREAT MUTATION 800 YEAR CYCLE
SECOND ORDER RECURRENCE





__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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