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Unread 04-06-2006, 04:12 PM
Three-leg-cat Three-leg-cat is offline
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What is the gender of the of the Creator of Trinity

The only birthday card I receive this year is from the Christian (evangelical) church /denomination where I grew up(natal Sun trine Neptune), but hadn't been for two years.

However, this birthday card brings some complex feelings to me, seems like that I'm receiving some spiritual burdens from them! My rationle is usually hard to get along with that.(natal Mercury square Neptune)

Some of the reasons for my problem are theological. One of the questions arise when I knew about Feminist theology, which challenge the patriachical paradigm from Christian traditional doctrine of Trinity to claim the First Person as "Father". Some theologians say the Lord is "Mother", so on and so forth...

Religious matters such like that is a bother to me indeed for years!

So here is my horary question:
"What is the gender of the Creator of Christian Trinity, who has been traditionally referred as 'Father'?"
April 6, 2006 22:51:10 (GMT +8 ) Wang Tau Hom, Hong Kong (114E11 22N21)

Here is the chart:

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Unread 04-06-2006, 11:54 PM
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Summery Joy Summery Joy is offline
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In The Martial Art of Horary Astrology, Dr. J. Lee Lehman says that this type of question is not fit for horary judgement. A question is only fit when the it is inevitable for an outcome to take place and be witnessed. If you ask about a job or a relation, time will tell you if the horary judgement you got was right or wrong. But if you ask a question like : "Does God exist?", will you ever be able to prove a yes or no answer to this question? It's a debatable subject and will neverbe proved. It's a matter of faith.

Your question is about the Trinity and assumes that the Trinity is a fact, while the fact is Trinity is a Christian belief. I mean, I'm Chrsitian and I believe in the Trinity, but I cannot prove it, neither by horary or otherwise.

In order for a question to be fit for horary judgement, it is has to be something like "will I get a new job in 5 months" or "Am I going to get back with my girlfriend in a year". Because in a certain amount of time you'll know if anwers to the first horaries were correct.

In this forum, you'll find a couple of horaries by me and Draco concerning aliens. While non-human intelligent life on other planets is still a unprovable, I was ok asking this question because I think science is very close to giving us the right answer and final answer on this issue, so it's pretty much a matter of time. But matters that relate to the Divine, you'll get many differnt answers yet none will be proved correct.

OK.. I just proof-read that and it sounded a bit like a lecture. Heh. Sorry about that. Was just trying to help.
It's important to distinguish between means and ends.
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Unread 04-07-2006, 03:00 AM
Three-leg-cat Three-leg-cat is offline
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Thank you sorehearted. I think I would be eligible to ask question since a serious student is here attending your lecture!

With very limited background of religious /philosophy studies, I would like to added a few points or generalization to the issue, maybe they're not relevant or not elaborated in a systematic way.

1) It maybe not easy to answer "Does something exist?" because the choose of significators for the involved parties would be very difficult. It's the matter of circular reasoning if one decide to choose a significator which cannot represent the quesited.

(This type of question, being argued for several centuries, wouldn't trap me again...)

2) The second question is about the lack of time frame to proof the anwser. By simpified modernism thinking, seemingly it's not the error of the horary chart itself. It's the problem on the skeptical mind that cannot believe s/he for what's interpreted by anybody.

Would I say the question thus become invalid then? Seems not? But Jungian (I know too less) may agree on it's invalidity because "to state a question believed in mind that the anwser won't be trustable by the querent himself/herself", for me is quite absurd to state. Thus affect the validity of a question in return.

For instace, the Ascendant for this chart is again Sagittarius, a mutatable sign, thus implying my uncertainties for the questions?

3) I start to analyse my question, simplified as "What's the gender of God?" Would it be too different from a question like "What's his sexual preference?" "What's the gender of amoeba?"

Serious consequences would be brought out if the anwser is "God is female" when more than 99% of Christians have clear concept in their mind that "God is my Father". Would we thus say they are believing Somebody who is non-existing? Or to say "your healing of serious illness through prayers last week in the church is false illusions because you prayed in the name of Father"? My anwser would be "no".

4) Many contemporary theologians have different time frames than the previous ones. It's in the term of "eschatology", saying that the salvations, "Kingdom of God", etc would be a continuity of the present world, not as seperate as some traditionalists claim, who are too mystical to imagine the "Other World" that's detached from human (women?) his(hers)tory.

5) Having the problem of unprovable time frame resolved, how about if I ask questions like "Is Katrina believe in Buddha this year?" "What was Vincent Van Gogh thinking while he was painting "The Starry Night"?" ( April 7 2006 10:19:03 GMT+8 114:11:00E 22:21:00N) Or "What was the time "Historical Jesus"(19thC biblical scholar Bultmann's term) die?" "Was it apostle John himself to write the Revelation of John?" Are these questions valid? If yes, then why not "Did Jesus (Christ) went to see the apostles after He was killed?" or "Would Jesus be a women who thought she was a man?"...etc

Sorry for so many instinctive response from my natal Moon trine Sun, Neptune and sextile Pluto, with transiting Moon coming to my Leonine Moon. It's a bit arrogant!
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Unread 04-07-2006, 08:54 AM
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Radu Radu is offline
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Great question! I am a supporter of open-mindness.

Even if the right answer is not to be known by horary, your interest and inquiry was genuine and by the universal law of resonance/synchronicity/"as above, so below", which rules over ALL horary questions, the horary chart is a reflection of your question.

How one would analyse a such chart is a totally different matter.

First, it is to keep in mind that this question should be answerable or at least analysable by any intelligent astrologer, no matter his/her religious beliefs. A Christian, a Muslim, a Jewish, a Buddhist, a Wiccan or any other horary astrologer, they all have the right to analyse this chart, and might come up with a judgement and possibly a different answer, depending on their own understanding of religious and spiritual matters, also their astrological skills.

Secondly, as we are approaching the Age of Aquarius and intercultural exchanges are a fact nowadays, people from any democratic country have the right and the possibility to practice any spiritual path or religion, we are much more prepared to deal with such issues, then the people who lived many centuries ago, such as William Lilly for instance. Lee Lehman's book is based heavily on Lilly's teachings. Don't get me wrong, I love Lee Lehman's book. But more modern-minded horary astrologers such as Frawley, have developped an understanding of the inner mechanisms of horary, this allows trespassing strict ancient rules and regulations. The keyword is understanding.

This why I advocate that you may ask any question you like. Nobody and nothing is allowed to place barriers on you mind, so go ahead and inquire genuinely about anything that exists or doesn't exist. The laws of the universe will make sure that the horary chart will represent the inquired matter.

Understanding the horary answer is something else:

- Everyone will be able to understand the answer to a question like "Will he marry me?", as the necessary IQ needs not to be over 90, nor highschool or postgraduate studies are required.
- Not everyone will be able to understand the answer to a question like "If I invest in buying XY stocks will this be successful business?" which requires a medium intellect and a basic understanding of how stock market works. I choosed this example because I know very little about stock market in general, never had any tight contact with the financial world, so I might give a poor answer to this horary question, compared to a horary astrologer who knows everything about stocks and also has experience with such questions.
- Now try to figure out how to answer a question like "What gender is God?"

The question assumes that God has a gender. Actually, the question lies in determing who or what God is. Does this question has an answer, in the first place? Isn't God (by definition) omnipotent, omniscient, beyong any human comprehension? If so, no words could accurately describe Him.
This is why I don't think that there isn't an acceptable rational answer to the question who God is.

As for the gender part, being of a specific gender, implies that there is an associated entity of the opposite gender, otherwise the whole concept of gender doesn't make sense. I would not want to go into further ellaboration here, as this implies a lot of aspects and I don't have a good understanding of all of them.

Let's get back to the chart!

Sagittarius rising = perfect for a religious question.
ASC ruler, Jupiter retrograde in Scorpio on the 12th house cusp = perfect for a rhetoric question (Rx) on the gender (Scorpio) of the Creator (12th house).
Moon in domicile, at 29 Cancer = that's your feminist standpoint (29th degree is critical because is the last degree, and therefore the planet located there accumulated a lot of energy by transiting that sign).

Jupiter, your significator, in inconjunction with the Sun (traditionally the Father principle) is you challenging the Christian church concept of the Father as the Creator (9th house=church, religion, ruled by the Sun).
The symbolism of the chart is very eloquent in describing the Creator: the Sun exalted in Aries conjnct the 5th house cusp represents the emerging energy, the Creation.

Now, what could we tell about this "Father". In finding out the roots of a situation, I usually look at the significator's dispositor. In this case, it's Mars, disposing the Sun. Mars is in Gemini (multiple items of the same kind), therefore representing the Trinity. Gemini is an androginal sign, represented by two twins not differentiated sexually
Mars in Gemini square Mercury suggests also that this is just an mental concept, which might not be accurate.

Mars is also in opposition with Pluto! And Pluto is transcendence.

What is the reality? Which planet represents GOD, the Creator in this chart? Since the 12th house is the realm of the unknown, the spiritual world, the illumination, it is the correct house for God. Modern ruler of the 12th house, Pluto is to be chosen, as Mars doesn't encompass the entire range of symbolism to represent the Creator. Pluto is also conjunct the Galactic Center. And Pluto, the last planet of our solar system, is perfect for representing the ultimate concept of God, the Creator.

The Mars - Pluto opposition on the knowledge axis (Gemini-Sagittarius) is merely showing how inadequate the traditional religious concepts are, compared to the transcendance and infinity of God.

So, my point is that the whole idea of a "Male" Creator was just a trick in order make religion available to the ignorant masses. In modern world, with instruction available at almost anyone's fingertips, with scientific concepts of relativity and quantum world, we should have a broader perspective on the Divinity as well.

Yeah, I know what you think now: I forged this horary chart interpretation in order for it to fit my own religious/spiritual/philosophical beliefs. I admit I did it... Shame on me.
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Unread 04-07-2006, 03:30 PM
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Your question is valid and genuine. If my last post implied that I thought wasn't, then I apologize. It was not my intention. Your question is a valid one and you have the right to ask it. I'm sure it was generated by genuine feelings in your heart. I only just said that it's not fit for horary judgement. It coud be fit for other types of judgements that I don't know about. Still, the horary chart described it well with Sagittarius rising. This porves that the question was asked at the right space and time. I'm also pretty sure that the horary has the answer withing the chart. It's us finding that answer that is difficult, if not impossible, to get throgh horary because of the lack of objective knowldge in this area, knowldge that I cannot see humanity acquiring any time soon. That's my opinion at least.


Shame on you? Why? You did nothing wrong. This is the problem with this type of questions in horary. The astrologer is likely to depend on his or her belief in the interpretation since the basis of choosing the proper significators is not an objective process. We have no basis but our own faith. That's good, but it's not very good for horary. In fact, I was afraid of answering this question with horary because I felt it would be unfair to horary, a very respectable science in my opinion.

Here's the answer I was afraid I was going to get because I already sort of believe in it. The "Father" in the Trinity is genderless. We simply had to give "Him" a gender to make Him closer to our hearts and get the fittest idea of what He really is, a loving parent. I'm pretty sure if I look at the chart, I will see it this way one way or another. I was also going to add this in the end of the interpretation. "It doesn't matter if God is a male, female or something else we don't know about. What matters is our relationship with Him. Don't let earthly politics diviate you from why we call Him Father in the first place". See? Completely subjective on my part.
It's important to distinguish between means and ends.
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Unread 04-08-2006, 01:51 AM
Three-leg-cat Three-leg-cat is offline
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I have updated the horary chart so as to include inconjunct aspects as well as GC as Radu mentioned in his interpretation.

Now the discussions seems to have two means. One is in horary terms, another is in terms of daily religious practice. But for me the question was being asked because there have been conflicts between these two means.

After Radu's explanations, I've found some simple interesting facts from my chart:

1) Pluto is in my 1st house. Things in 1st house can be easily felt -- The feeling heavy spiritual burden that had used to be with me several years ago is back. This simply remind me that Pluto as "death and rebirth". I say it's "several years" ago as it was the time when I have more heavy "power" religious experiences from prayers frequently.

Strange enough, this feeling comes again after the dull and environmental unfriendly birthday card, while the horary made after this maybe the first one out of tens to have Pluto in 1st house!

2) The Moon is also applying an inconjunction to Pluto (and Venus)! Would I not only challenging the traditional church, but also challenge God! How about Venus? Representing the public (11th house's ruler) or somewhat representing the 6th house?

For soreherted's concerns, I think the "Father" model have to be challenged not because there couldn't be a Fatherly image of God. It would involve more to the problem of our dominant culture to subordinate to male -- male clergy, male violence to female, narrow mind for sexuality, the teachings of female to be obedient, ignorance to nurturing the eco-system, female subordinated economically, so on and so forth. They may be hindering, not a help to the church.

Though I'm never to intend to start any theological debate here, for my dominance of language would not be fair to you.

I'm no good too. My gf complained about my ignorance to her maybe one example. She has left me a feminist book that I just have to go on reading. This would be a long and winding road.
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Unread 05-01-2007, 02:34 PM
Lenvdb Lenvdb is offline
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Re: What is the gender of the of the Creator of Trinity

Could I post a line or two? Just my thought in my walk with God.

God is both male and female, yet neither male nor female. We cannot really comprehend God on human terms. God reveals herself/himself to us according to our capacity to understand and believe. That is why one of the hebrew names of God is the Elohim. Elohim is a Female noun with a male plural. Jesus calls God his Abba-Ama (See the Gospel of the Holy 12).

The Gospel of the Holy 12 is an Aramaic manuscript copy of the Gospel found in a monastry in Tibet, where it was hidden by members of the Essene community to escape the hands of the Roman church correctors. It was in use by the early church in Jerusalem and the Early Church fathers eventually thought it was lost forever. It is said to be older than the copies of the gospels in the New Testament, which is now in greek. You can order this book from Amazon nowadays - it makes for fascinating reading. You get quite a powerful image of the real Jesus. Not the watered down flavour of Jesus left to us by the Nicean Council!

So when Jesus died He cried Eloi Eloi Lama Sabagtani (Aramaic) which in Hebrew would be "Elohim Elohim...." and in English "my Gods My Gods, why have you forsaken me?" Sadly this duality - the Father-Mother-ness of God is poorly translated today. The church is stuck with an understanding of God which is rather inferior or inadequate.

It is time for the Great Awakening!
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creator, gender, trinity

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