Wow Tsmall, you are way off! I know there are a 150+ posts to weed through but when did I say you couldn't offer an opinion? As JUPITERASC has already mentioned, you have both suggested you are open to opinions and yet simultaneously suggested/implied/downright come out and said that anyone not living in CA or the Southeast US really cannot have an (according to you) informed opinion by virtue of the fact that they don't live there, and so cannot possibly understand the problem...sometimes in the same sentence. I would call that a pretty active-aggressive way of discounting anyone wanting to offer an opinion that differs from yours.
You perceive attacks when there are none. You are taking bits and pieces of what I have written to bait me. You are seemingly trying to turn this around as if I attacked you first. I never attacked you once other than mentioning it seemed like you might be “blurring the line” between illegal and legal immigration. Let me remind of one of your provoking messages to me “I see that the OP states the opinion that it is a problem for California specifically, but the question was it's impact on the entire US economy? So far, we have been told on several occasions that we cannot really offer an opinion if we do not actually live in CA or other parts of the Southwest, but the question was about the United States' economy, wasn't it? Also, I believe that all opinions were invited, but opposing opinions thus far have been completely dismissed, or outright attacked, and in some instances so have the posters themselves.”
I said you don't live in California therefore you don't really know what the problem is with illegal immigration here. This was simply a fact, not suggesting you couldn't comment. But I do have to ask, why comment on something when you aren't familiar with the problems just as I am unfamiliar with with Maryland's economy?I see, so suggesting that because I don't live in California means that I don't real know what the problem with illegal immigration is, then saying you're not telling me I can't comment, then asking why I would comment on problems I am unfamiliar with is encouraging comment? You do realize that you actually are able to become familiar with Maryland's economy and problems? And that you have insulted my intelligence and indicated that you must be some sort of psychic to know what I am or am not familiar with?
I think the only insult to your intelligence is coming from yourself for trying to spin everything I said into a personal attack. Complete nonsense and in fact, was not even on my radar! But it certainly makes for a better case when you come back at me with both guns pointed! BTW, Where did I say you “couldn’t comment?” I asked you why comment on a situation you aren’t living with? And that’s correct, I don’t believe you have any idea of how bad the problem is here in the Southwest with illegal immigration. And I never said you “don’t know what the problem with illegal immigration is.” Again, great story but more partial information you extracted to launch an attack on my opinion. Did you not say Maryland’s issue with immigration is different than what we experience here? I wouldn’t question your expertise on Maryland and I find it insulting that you think you know the situation here better than I do. You also keep insisting “Illegal immigration may indeed have a large impact on one specific area of the US, but it is not the biggest economic problem facing the entire US,” ONCE AGAIN, if you would have actually thread through my posts I have said time and time again that it was a major contributing factor but not the only one. Again, you “pick and choose” bits and pieces of what I said to launch a personal attack, very much like Jupiter, when you are leaving out a lot of what I said. And yes, I am aware I could become familiar with Maryland’s’ economy, however we have a lot of our own economic problems keeping us busy. Perhaps you should take your own advice and familiarize yourself with California and the Southwest problems instead of getting angry because I said you are not living here and dealing with the everyday problem.
Were you aware California is or was the 8th largest economy in the world and contributes 13% to the overall United States domestic product? Yes, actually, I am aware. Thanks for assuming that I wasn't.How would this not effect the US economy? As you have also pointed, out, I never said it wasn't, simply that in my (believe it or not) informed opinion it is not the largest problem facing the US economy. It doesn't even score in my top 5, actually.
What you did or did not know was not a thought on my mind, I was merely stating a fact. Again, how very odd that you think this is an insult to your intelligence. Who is really the defensive one? Is this how you always respond when someone tells you something you already know? You have spun everything I have said into a personal attack when all I was doing was merely informing you of how important California is to the economy. My bad for telling you information you already knew!
Also, that's interesting that you think opinions were "dismissed, attacked, and posts themselves." Just so I am clear, it's not ok when someone attacks views similar to yours but when i am attacked about my views, it's acceptable?Why would you assume that? Did I say so? I only pointed out that, contrary to the nature of the OP, there have been attacking comments made (I never specified by or to whom.) I will say that I find it amusing that anyone who has posted a differing opinion to yours is immediately condemned because that poster doesn't live in CA. Go back and read them.
I don’t condemn anyone, I respond with my own opinion the same as they do to mine. How is that condemning? You do the same thing, read your own posts. I have never attacked anyone first. And again, if you don’t want me to make assumptions, show by example and stop making your own.
You make a lot of assumptions and once again here is on another example of your commenting on something you don't know about, here again is another insulting comment, and another assumption made about what I may or may not know... the messages that were erased were attacking and or unrelated to the subject of the thread. In fact, many were erased long before I was a moderator. Obviously you would not know because you cannot read erased messages. Who mentioned anything about whether the attacking comments were made before or after you became a moderator? Who mentioned posts that were deleted? Certainly not I. No, I cannot read erased messages, but I am subscribed to the thread, and have been pretty much from the beginning.
What is insulting about it? You really need to get over you hypersensitivity. You have no problem making assumption about me and what I know. I think you are equally as insulting when you do this. As for deleting attacking messages, you said I condemn and attack and I said there were plenty of attacking messages directed at me without my commenting to the poster at all, in other words “I am not the only one condemning.” Understand?
Wow Tsmall, where did I say I "automatically think all those Hispanic workers" are here illegally? Please point out where I said that. I said they are taking jobs Americans do want, refuting a tired old argument from people including you who say they only take jobs Americans do not want. Again, you seemingly make a lot of assumptions of your own. Yes, statistics can be manipulated so I am basing my opinion on personal experience and so is MaeMae, something you don't have. Again, a simple fact.The third? reference in one post that I could not possibly have an informed opinion because I don't live in CA. The third? time in one post that you have accused me of making assumptions. Can you please explain how you are not making this personal? Further, I have never said that illegal immigrants are taking jobs that Americans do not want. I did say that they are willing to work for wages below the poverty line, something that most Americans are not financially able to do.
Tsmall, I can't help to think you haven't read very many posts other than the last few because I have said time and time again illegal immigration is not the ONLY problem but a MAJOR contributor particularly here in the Southwest and California. And your hypothetical situation of deporting people here illegally and it not freeing up taxpayer money...oh I beg to differ!!! It would free up our school systems, prisons, freeways, jobs, social services, and hospital emergency rooms to name a few. I'm sorry that you think that because I don't agree with your opinion that it is a major contributor to the entire economic situation of the entire country I have only read a few posts. As I have mentioned, I have been subscribed to this thread from the beginning. As far as freeing up school systems, prisons, freeways, jobs, and social services...etc. I have already given my opinion of what would happen. That money would be removed from the system. It is your right to differ, but it is my right to have that opinion.
I don’t have a problem with your stating your opinion at all, however when I state mine you think it’s condemning. It was never been meant that way. When people have differing opinions, there is going to be debate going back and forth between both people on why they think the other person is wrong.
Tsmall, there is an estimated 30+ million people here in the United States illegally. Of those, approximately 6% work in agriculture. With that said, this leaves lets say 18-20 million or so people(allowing for children and non-working immigrants) working within the United States. Let's go a step further and say of those jobs maybe 10-12 million are jobs "American's would want." Could you honestly say IF they were deported the jobs left behind would not help the economy? Take the emotion out of it. BTW, California has one of the highest unemployment rates in the nation at more than double of most other states. It also has some of the strictest regulations and highest taxes for business, which by the way are leaving California in record numbers because they cannot afford to operate.
Vista, as an informed and educated American, where do you think most jobs in this country come from? Who do you think grows the economy? It's small businesses, hey! Just like the one my husband and I own. Know what? We provide employment to 14 people, so please do not further insult my intelligence by suggesting that I know nothing about how jobs are created, what the problems facing business is in any state, or that simply because I don't live in California I am unable to educate myself on it's economy, or how it impacts the economy of the entire country. As far as "taking the emotion out of it," I would suggest looking in the mirror, as I have not become emotional at any time in this conversation.
Those blue collar jobs? The roofer? If he's illegal, he is most likely paid under the table. Deport him? Do you have any idea how much money it would cost the employer to replace him with a legal American roofer? Now, before anyone thinks I am condoning the hiring of illegal aliens, I am not, nor would I ever. I am merely making an economic case. Paying anyone under the table is actually more cost effective for both parties. To replace that undocumented worker with a legal one, the employer now would need to pay unemployment insurance, worker's compensation insurance (on a roofer? do you have any idea how many $$ per hundred that would be? try somewhere around 33% of payroll.) health care benefits if a full-time worker, and payroll taxes. That's just for starters. If the roofer's employer were barely breaking even before, do you think that job would be available if the worker were deported?
Again TSmall, you must very self-doubting to think everything I have said is a direct insult to your intelligence. Where did I say anything about your ability to create jobs? And yes, clearly you are becoming emotional because you can’t see anything I say but as an insult towards your intelligence. And “thank you” for insulting “my intelligence” for pointing out what employers have to pay for a legal employee. “How insulting” of you to “assume” I didn’t know that. Also, "how insulting" of you to “assume” I couldn’t find out this information. See how silly this sounds? Just for the record, I have employed as many as 11 people when I was in business for myself, so I am well aware of the costs.
