the relationship axis; what does it really mean?

kimbermoon

kimbermoon

Well-known member
do the descriptions of the signs on a cusp show the natural tendencies of the individual themselves, or rather the type of response we experience from others and how their reactions influence us?
Recently there was a discussion relating to how the 3rd H relates to our sibling relationships and it was suggested that with my Capricorn ruling there, that might imply how I reacted personally to my sibling relationships...or did it represent how they acted towards me. That got me thinking about the relationship axis between the 1st and 7th houses and how that really plays out.
Most would say that the 7th represents the type of person that we end up marrying, which has not been true in my case. I do own the fact that I express myself in a very Scorpio way as per my Rising sign expression, yet I have never been involved with Taurus as potential partners. And I certainly did not act that style in my partnerships, if it shows our own actions in marriage...that is the conundrum, in determining how the actual polarity plays out between opposing signs. It is harder to define the marital relationship in my chart, as neither house is tenanted, and the rulers have no relationship at all, but for being in the same sign. I can only conclude that while I was not involved with Taurus, I did involve myself with variations of the earth energy, in an attempt to balance my own heavy water persona. The only connection I can make is that in partnerships I typically ended up feeling self-defensive as well as possessive [Scorpio] which resulted in many critical and intense dramas playing out in marriage. The point being that in this case, it doesn't really tell me much of any significance in terms of my relationships with others, which is the basis of much of our experience in life. As such, I then had to dig deeper into my own relationship chemistry, involving Moon, Venus and Mars, to truly get the essence of how my relationships changed me.
Can anyone share their experience as denoted by their 7th H sign?
 
miquar

miquar

Well-known member
Hi Kimbermoon. Its something I'm trying to understand better at the moment too -especially as it relates to my own life.

I have Cancer rising with Moon in Scorpio, so a very watery ascendant. There was a time when I was very needy in relationships, and would tend to attract partners who were decidedly less needy, at least on the surface. I should say that I also have Venus in Capricorn (6th house) closely square Uranus.

Nowadays, I still am attracted to Capricorn types, but now I find the idea of a Capricorn-type relationship very appealing, rather than one which is too close. I am still getting in touch with my Cancer ascendant as I go along, and trying to express it in increasingly creative ways, but I see the ideal relationship for me as one where both I and my partner can be quite Capricornian.

I've also noticed that I tend to want my approach life (and the image I present to others) to be both Cancerian and Capricornian. I notice if others look uncomfortable and try to make them feel at home, and I also notice if things aren't being done 'properly'. I find myself sometimes feeling critical of others for being slap-dash or compulsive, and feel uncomfortable with the idea of others seeing me in this way. But I often catch myself just doing what I feel like doing as I go along, and would tend to want to hide this side of myself. So my Capricorn descendant is also a part of my 'persona' along with my Cancer ascendant.

Opposite signs have a lot in common. They have a very definite process in common, which is unique to that pair. In the case of Cancer and Capricorn, both signs are concerned with the integration of parts into a stable whole. And opposite signs differ in that they are each attuned to the other element of their polarity (Cancer and Capricorn are both signs of yin elements, but Cancer is water while Capricorn is earth) and also in that one is an individual sign (in this case Cancer) and the other is a collective sign.

To attune to both the ascendant (experience of oneself as an autonomous individual) and the descendant (experience of oneself as a participant in some greater whole) we can start by defining what the rising and setting signs have in common, and then notice how we swing between their differences.

If we are only attuned to the ascendant and project our descendant onto others, we are just an individual bouncing off other individuals. But if we can be the qualities of our rising sign and also consciously participate with others according to the qualities of the setting sign, we know ourselves as an individual and also as a part of something greater than ourselves. But I think it can be hard to live out the descendant until you are actually in the presence of someone else - we just slip naturally into the ascending sign way of being when left to our own devices, even if we can also identify with the opposite sign. And so most of us will tend to look for associates of various kinds who reflect the qualities of our descending sign (and of course any planets in the 7th house, etc).
 
miquar

miquar

Well-known member
No problem. Helpful to me to get my thoughts together. Was just thinking that we can perhaps say that the rising signs shows what we expect of ourselves as an individual, and the setting sign shows what we expect of ourselves as a member of a group (even is its a two-person group) or community. And of course we can project both of these expectations and assume that others expect these things from us. And we can project the qualities themselves and experience them as belonging more to others. We probably tend to do all of these things with both each end of the axis.
 
G

greybeard

Well-known member
The signs on cusps are two-way streets.

Think of the Ascendant, described in many texts as
"The way we see the world and the world sees us."

The Tenth shows our ascension to the throne (our personal stature in society) as well as our dealings with authority higher than our own.

Capricorn on the Third describes the mutual relationships with your near kin.

The sign, which we might think of as a field, gives a general picture; it's lord, being a planet and a focus of dynamic energy, is more specific. The lord of the sign disposes the sign toward this or that sort of expression of its native potential qualities.

Miquar has touched on an important point and that is the duality of the opposing houses along any axis.

If the Ascendant is "Self", then the Descendant is "Not-self." We, as individuals, are nothing if devoid of relationship. No man is an island. Or if an island, the island (self) is surrounded by sea (not-self), constantly and vitally interacts with it, arises from it. The same sort of relationship prevails between all opposing house cusps.

By studying the lords of opposing houses in light of their conditioning and relationship to each other, we fill in the picture as to any one house.

A planet can be likened to a horse. A sign, the field, can be seen as a flat, wide grassy plain; a narrow path through steep, ruggeed mountains; a road through dense woods. The field dictates how the horse, always having the nature "horse", can and will behave within the field. The horse is the dynamic or active element, the field "passive".

In western astrology the 8th House is the house of death. In Hindu astrology it is the 2nd. The 2nd-8th axis is the death axis. Also, the 2nd has to do with our personal liquid and readily available resources, while the 8th is resources that are somehow locked up for the time being (inheritance not yet inherited, taxes, trusts). But the resources of the 8th can quickly move to the 2nd and vice-versa.
 
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miquar

miquar

Well-known member
We do tend to see the descendant as 'the other' a lot of the time. But if we think of the ascendant as 'individual self' and the descendant as 'teamwork self' then it encourages us to participate with others more consciously and draws us out of too subjective an approach to life. Just a thought.
 
miquar

miquar

Well-known member
I like the idea of the 8th as resources that are locked up for the time being - that we can't just reach for at will. Someone else often has to get involved by dying or opening themselves to us emotionally or going into business with us so that we can tap into these resources.
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Kimbermoon, I highly recommend the book The Ascendant, by Jodie Forrest. She is a very insightful, funny lady who handles the AC/DC axis as a unit.

There is a "me<>you" quality to the descendant, yet for anyone with a 7th house sun or moon, obviously there is a lot of "me" in the 7th house, as well. A 7th house sun man may feel most like himself as part of a couple.

The first house is your outward personality. The part of you that other people experience. It is also your body.

The 7th deals with long-term relationships such as marriage, but not exclusively so. In horary, it might merely be the hope of a long-term relationship with a Person of Interest. The 7th is the house of open enemies and business partners. It can be all kinds of things in a derived house system.

The sign on the DC doesn't mean that we will marry someone with planetary involvement in that sign. Taurus on the DC doesn't mean someone will "marry a Taurus." Rather, (in a heterosexual woman's chart) she may hope to marry a man who seems rock-solid, stable, sensual, and appreciative of the finer things in life. The location of Venus in her chart will say more about what the ideal Prince Charming would be like.

The danger, of course, is that the guy she finds might also be stubborn and as anti-intellectual as they come! (Again, see what Venus is up to.) He may have no planets or angles in Taurus at all: merely that he will come across to her as containing her wish-list of qualities-- or the sign's negative manifestations.

Or take Pisces on the DC. Maybe she wants the all-time record-holder for Sensitive Guy. If she finds him, good for her. If she winds up with the alcoholic, not so good. But this man may have no Pisces planets or angles at all. It's the wish-list we are looking at. To see how it plays out, we would look at her Neptune (modern ruler) and Jupiter (traditional ruler.)

I agree with Miquar that opposing signs don't have much in common-- which is why opposing suns in synastry would not be wonderful.

And then here we get into anima-animus territory. Do we want someone to complete us somehow? Perhaps a gal with the "plumb-the-depths", volcanic turmoil of Scorpio (no matter how cleverly masked) would admire a Rock of Gibralter Taurus archetype. Maybe a Virgo rising fuss-budget lady would admire the relaxed acceptance of life suggested by the gentle Pisces male archetype.

Unfortunately, relationships don't work well when we look for a partner/spouse to complete what we feel lacking within us. The lesson of the animus/anima is that we better work out both of them within our own personalities. Otherwise we project so much need onto the other person that it inhibits a successful relationship.

We are all of our horoscope. So in terms of whether a particular house indicates "me or him," we account for all of it. This isn't to say we have no objectively real siblings (3rd house) or partner (7th house,) including some objectively real problems with them on occasion. Of course we do, but we construe most of the reality around these people.
 
F

Frisiangal

Well-known member
kimbermoon said:
do the descriptions of the signs on a cusp show the natural tendencies of the individual themselves, or rather the type of response we experience from others and how their reactions influence us?
.................got me thinking about the relationship axis between the 1st and 7th houses and how that really plays out.
Most would say that the 7th represents the type of person that we end up marrying, which has not been true in my case. I do own the fact that I express myself in a very Scorpio way as per my Rising sign expression, yet I have never been involved with Taurus as potential partners. And I certainly did not act that style in my partnerships, if it shows our own actions in marriage...that is the conundrum,
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Hi Kimbermoon,
I feel I should reply to you, seeing as I presented a personal theory that I cannot prove, yet has got you pondering. No sleepless night, I hope.:smile:

If I can use Greybeard's expressive example, look at the cuspal sign as 'a field', to which I would add the words 'of experience'(house). Taurus is a personal sign (1-6), so you could ask yourself ,'what do I ask for in my personal relationships?' rather than 'what does the other bring to the relationship for me?'

Taurus's field is not firey and scorching hot, nor windy, airy, and dry, nor sopping and absorbingly wet. It's a firm and solid land mass upon which one can rely to walk in safety and securely on, that will in turn provide the physical security for which one hunkers. It depends upon where Greybeard says 'the filly'(Venus) is, qua sign and house, as to how I act and and what I bring to a 7th house personal relationship to make it firm and secure for me.

Place Sagittarius on the 7th house cusp and it's the influence of 'the other' (7-12th sign) and what (s)he brings to the relationship that is of significance. One's own Jupiter 'horse' and its sign/house can relate to such a person. And we all know the effect of a partner that Aquarius on the 7th house cusp will bring TO an individual.:smile:

It's only a personal view but the horoscope and its patterns are so often 'projected' onto others influences upon the individual, which I believe to be the effect of living the chart through the Moon's effects (response towards another's actions). Yet it is a very personal blueprint of one's own life and what the individual can make of it through 'interaction' with others, not because of them.

Can anyone share their experience as denoted by their 7th H sign?
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With Virgo Ascendant I am very self-critical, nit-picking, and, again using Greybeard's expression, 'look at the world' through nitty-gritty realistic glasses. What do I get for a 7th house relationship? Exactly the opposite.
Can one even call Pisces Descendant 'a relationship of this mundane world'? My other half is rather more an Olympus type who looks at the rest of the world as mere mortals....but he IS a Sag. Sun.:smile: Got to admit that he no longer smokes, is but an average drinker (but never water!) and is as honest as the day is long. All good for my Virgo side, yet which has great difficulty with the not-of-this-world 'Pisces types'. Hubby has premonition dreams that relate a forthcoming truth, sees auras that I can't, and maintains a faith that I have not yet suceeded in finding to my Virgo's satisfaction. On a pure mundane level, I am his servant.:tongue: Fit for most of his life, one physical disorder after another has developed since his early retirement 11 years ago. With his progressed Sun now entering Pisces in his 6th house, I'm wondering how HIS 7th house in Pisces will continue to work?:sideways:
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miquar

miquar

Well-known member
waybread said:
I agree with Miquar that opposing signs don't have much in common-- which is why opposing suns in synastry would not be wonderful.
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Just to clarify what I meant, I do agree that there are strong differences between opposite signs, and that people do tend to polarise with respect to one another when one person in a couple identifies with one end of a sign axis, and the other person identifies with the other end (which works well for some couples and not so well for others).

But opposite signs share the same polarity (i.e. either yin - earth/water - or yang - fire/air) and also the same mode. In this sense the signs are trying to manifest their needs in a similar way - if we reflect upon the polarity and mode of a sign axis we get a sense of what this entails. The yin signs seek containment, while the yang signs seek the freedom to extend their experience.

But since a sign axis always crosses the equinoctial axis (i.e. one half is in the 'individual' hemicycle and the other half is in the 'collective' hemicycle), they are pulling in opposite directions - one towards self-sufficiency, and one towards participation in some greater whole such as a group or society.

And since opposite signs are of different elements, they express different approaches to either containment or extension.

Fire seeks to extend its experience by injecting its perceptions with its own sense of possibility and meaning; air seeks to extend its experience by evaluation things with complete objectivity, rather than getting caught up in personal preferences.

Earth seeks containment by focusing on the reliable and consistent properties of things; water seeks containment by evaluating things in terms of whether or not they provide a sense of well-being.
 
lovelight

lovelight

Member
Hi Kimbermoon....I'm answering your post because I have same house setup as you with Scorpio rising (O degree). You didn't say if you had anything in the seventh or maybe I missed it? I do have a full seventh house and the man I married ended up with his moon in my seventh. He has 4 planets in Scorpio in my first.

If you have a empty seventh maybe your partners would be where the ruler of the seventh is, or aspects to it. In my own experience with the seventh (I have Sun, Moon & Mercury there), my "partners" have been related to the planets I have there. There were 3 other guys in my life before I got married & all were earth signs ( Cap.'s) and they were very mental (mercury) & emotional (moon), so like my 7th earth sign & the planets I have there.

But my husband is a Libra (his sun c my Saturn/Neptun c) with Virgo rising but like I said 4 Scorpio planets and his moon on my sun! The perfect guy for you needn't be in your 7th though. But just have contacts with your planets somewhere I think? Oh, my chiron (sp?) is in Cap., you might want to take note of yours to do with "others", since 3 of my guys sun's where there. Hope this helps some...:)
 
F

Frisiangal

Well-known member
miquar said:
But since a sign axis always crosses the equinoctial axis (i.e. one half is in the 'individual' hemicycle and the other half is in the 'collective' hemicycle), they are pulling in opposite directions -one towards self-sufficiency, and one towards participation in some greater whole such as a group or society.
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Although you were referring to this effect in partner synastry, I think it can be considered as strong in personal chart interpretation as well.
Is an individual guided by/through others in their experience of their personal (lower hemisphere) place within a collective force (signs 7-12), or does it come from within themselves(signs 1-7) in recognising their personal place as part of a larger collective force(upper hemisphere)?

Generally speaking, is it that planets in the personal signs 1-7 in the lower hemisphere of the chart are very 'me and my life' orientated, whereas planets in the upper hemisphere in the collective signs 7-12 experience the 'me with everyone else's life'?
Which emphasis would be easier to enable a person to 'individuate from the herd state ' (quoting from Jeff Green's 'Pluto')?

Fire seeks to extend its experience by injecting its perceptions with its own sense of possibility and meaning; air seeks to extend its experience by evaluation things with complete objectivity, rather than getting caught up in personal preferences.
Earth seeks containment by focusing on the reliable and consistent properties of things; water seeks containment by evaluating things in terms of whether or not they provide a sense of well-being.
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Have you had any experience with Aquarius types???? FIXED air! Try offering them any alternate perspective to do/see things that is other than their own.:biggrin::biggrin:
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miquar

miquar

Well-known member
Hi Frisiangal. The whole post was really about how an individual can integrate opposite signs within themselves, but I also responded to something that Waybread said about couples and opposite signs.

I'm not sure I understand your questions fully, or even whether they are rhetorical questions. But anyway, I think that its important to keep in mind that the entire cycle is a cycle of self-actualisation, whether its the zodiacal, house, lunation cycle or whatever. The first hemicycle emphasises the experience of being a self-contained individual, so self-actualisation is achieved primarily through being an individual as consciously and creatively as possible. The second hemicycle is emphasises the experience of being part of a collective, so self-actualisation is achieved primarily through participating in a collective as consciously and creatively as possible.

At every step of the way, the ego can get in the way by being too fearful and rigid. In the first hemicycle, it can mean that the person clings to some limited view of who they are as an individual, grasping at whatever validates this view, rather than consciously developing their potentials as a self-sufficient and creative individual. In the second hemicycle, the person can cling to some limited view of what society is and conform to that, rather than acting to improve society.

As generally seems to be the case when looking at emphases in the chart, there is the issue of how much to go with one's predisposition and really nurture that, and how much to balance it with other ways of being. But I think this is less of a dilemma than it seems, because we can't thrive and develop as individuals unless we can exchange resources of various kinds with others. And we can't participate creatively in the development of society unless we have a strong sense of individuality - otherwise we just conform because we don't have our own voice, or else we try to gain power because to compensate for our sense of being insubstantial as an individual.

I think its best not to assume anything about a person's actual life based on hemicycle emphasis. But I do think that once a person's issues are known, that looking at the balance of planets in the house and sign hemicycles, and to a lesser extent looking at the lunation phase, can help us to understand what is behind the person's problems.

Each quarter of any cycle also has its own characteristics which are very much unique to that quarter. People tend to jump from signs/houses to hemicycles as though there is nothing in between, but the equinoctial axis is crossed by the solstitial axis and the horizon axis is crossed by the meridian axis.

In the first quarter it is as though the realisation of one's individual selfhood is an end in itself. In the second, there is a sense that one must be more conscious of how one expresses oneself and what one has to offer to the larger life. In the third, it is as though the realisation of community/society is an end in itself. In the fourth, there is a sense that one must be more conscious of what society is, and how it can serve the individual.
 
F

Frisiangal

Well-known member
Hi again Miquar,
Apologies that I cannot explain my perspective more understandably. It seems so logical to my own way of thinking:biggrin:. It may not seem so from my simple approach to astrology, yet I am aware of cycle....or quadrant
...influence and their meaning in the chart.
I was also taught that the chart can be divided into 3 sections,:
1-4, personal,
5-8, personal relationship towards/with another,
9-12 personal relationships within societal realm.

As said in an earlier post, I believe it to be also a question of who influences/is influenced by whom,.... how and where.

(Hope your talk is during the current Mercury retrograde through Pisces and not through Aquarius.:wink:)
 
miquar

miquar

Well-known member
Hi. Yes that's another neat way of seeing the cycle as a sequence of stages. The hemicycle/quadrant divisions coincide with the recurring sequence of the modes, and splitting the cycle into three coincides with the recurring cycle of the elements. I suppose its not surprising that the hemicycle/quadrant divisions are more obvious, as they are based on division of the cycle by powers of 2, which are numbers of manifestation.
 
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