Venus debilitated in Virgo???

Eric traveller said:

Self-denial huh...? That's interesting, and probably a topic for another more private thread...Thanks for posting it here though. I REALLY appreciate that. I don't really think it's appropriate to put someone's details like that or make such a comment like that. do you?? Out of nowhere, and without warning. It almost seems, spiteful...hmmm.. naw. It couldn't be that could it.
Then why I wonder...
Of course charts work in synergy, I'm not, nor was I denying that. But I don't agree with you. It supposes you have more control over reality than you really do.
Look at the state of the West and all of the stupid morons that inhabit it.

I am familiar with both systems. I've studied them both, and fate is a "Real Thing." Venus in the second, debilitated also would indicate self- esteem and confidence.
I'm NOT denying what you said about the Moon, it's probably true partly you can blame my Mother for that, and meanwhile... ask her why she was that way.

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Your problem with women, and in general, is that you avoid internal criticism, ask questions about your blindspots and when they result in criticism you're insulted.

Pretty convenient way to always have your problems feel like someone else's doing, but your problems will only ever >feel< like that and your use of astrology is to explain to yourself that whatever you do is just who you 'naturally' are.

Why, it's not like you are capable of making any other decision than the ones you have made.

But.. wait? If you're not capable of agency, then doesn't that imply that everyone who you're complaining about in "the West", also lacks agency? Wouldn't that mean that God is responsible for all the things you're complaining about? Maybe it's just not in the plan for you to be getting girls and there's nothing you can do about it, because that's the plan? Are you suggesting God's plan is wrong?

My Venus is highly OOB in 0 degrees Capricorn, my experience was that I didn't have much luck and spent years trying not to think the way you're suggesting. Eventually I recognized that, actually, I'm not perfect, have blind spots and all I really need to do is get familiar, check them and make different decisions.

But of course, that means I'm now a trans woman, sex worker, and artist, am sleeping with a cis-girl who is kinky in exactly the same ways I am and I saved her from the galaxybrain neighbor dude who abused her... so, based on the way you keep saying "the West", you probably think that all sounds terrible.

I've never been happier, but feel free to just accept that the universe dropped a rock in your bag and there's nothing you can do about it but dumbly grumble about how everyone around you is evil and that's why everything is terrible and you can't get laid.

I don't think its as big a problem as you think it is. Yes it might feel like it's bad to have a planet in fall or otherwise debilitated, however, you need to know that you are in good company. There have been people, some of whom great, who have/had debilitated planets. I believe Lincoln had a whopping 5 planets, all in either fall or detriment, yet he was one of the most memorable, most well-known POTUS of all time. His debilitated planets did not hold him back whatsoever.

I accept that Venus is in an unfriendly atmosphere when posited in Virgo, but this would be modified by the decan it is in (I use the very old time Manilius Decans) + the degree occupied (monomoiria) plus the duodenary occupied plus the term connection (used by many of our traditionalist friends) plus any star connections plus Venus aspectual and declinational relationships, so that it is POSSIBLE that Venus in its fall in Virgo could actually exert an overall very benefic influence,depending upon these other influences upon it in the specific chart.
Remember that domicile/detriment/exaltation/fall = ONLY ONE OF SEVERAL FACTORS showing the NET CONDITION of a given planet In each particular chart.

dr. farr said:

I accept that Venus is in an unfriendly atmosphere when posited in Virgo, but this would be modified by the decan it is in (I use the very old time Manilius Decans) + the degree occupied (monomoiria) plus the duodenary occupied plus the term connection (used by many of our traditionalist friends) plus any star connections plus Venus aspectual and declinational relationships, so that it is POSSIBLE that Venus in its fall in Virgo could actually exert an overall very benefic influence,depending upon these other influences upon it in the specific chart.
Remember that domicile/detriment/exaltation/fall = ONLY ONE OF SEVERAL FACTORS showing the NET CONDITION of a given planet In each particular chart.

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I would even expand even further. Venus is the triciplicity ruler earth and water according to the Dorotheus Triplicility Lords. And it may be dignified by term depending upon its degree position. Triplicity dignity is not insignificant, and if Venus is in dignity by term, it can have a great amount of strength and authority in how it and the house it rules are expressed.
One size does not fit all.

waybread said:

Technically, in traditional western astrology, Venus is not debilitated in Virgo but in its fall. Venus is debilitated in Scorpio (opposite Taurus) and Aries (opposite Libra.) Venus is exalted in Pisces, hence its fall in the opposite sign of Virgo.

But I don't think Venus in Virgo in and of itself will explain difficulties with women and other Venusian matters. I think you also have to look at aspects and house placements.

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I would argue fall is worse than detriment, and both are debilitated.
Venus is somewhat shielded in Virgo - ruler of the earth triplicity, so it is never peregine in Virgo
Virgo also agrees with Venus - both are feminine signs, and both are dry so it's not a terrible situation, still pretty bad.
Of course, if venus were in fall and ruling 12/6/8, it would become an accidental malefic - which is no good.

I agree-fall is more afflictive to a planet than detriment.
I follow the dignities & debilities because they have proven themselves to me as real helps in delineation; however, I have never seen enough evidence in practice that essential dignities are somehow more powerful or significant than accidental dignities-so FOR ME I value them the same (I am not saying that anyone elso should do so-please follow your own course)

What is it about Mercury's domicile that "cramps" Venus' natural style?

And, what is it about Venus' domicile that "cramps" Mercury's natural style?

What qualities does Virgo impart that doesn't "fit" Venus?

And, what qualities does Libra impart that doesn't "fit" Mercury?

We should be looking at it both ways, since it's a "trading places" situation.

Having Venus in Aquarius, I tend to "think outside the box", and "push the envelope". However, the box is still important as a more conventional, agreed-upon way of looking at things.

david starling said:

What is it about Mercury's domicile that "cramps" Venus' natural style?

And, what is it about Venus' domicile that "cramps" Mercury's natural style?

What qualities does Virgo impart that doesn't "fit" Venus?

And, what qualities does Libra impart that doesn't "fit" Mercury?

We should be looking at it both ways, since it's a "trading places" situation.

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Libra is fine for Mercury - air sign and cardinal, very nice for Mercury
Virgo is just the opposite of Pisces - where Venus is exalted (most high), so it follows that Venus in Virgo is cast down (humiliated)

sinhtheslumberingdragon said:

Libra is fine for Mercury - air sign and cardinal, very nice for Mercury
Virgo is just the opposite of Pisces - where Venus is exalted (most high), so it follows that Venus in Virgo is cast down (humiliated)

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Too "formulaic", imo. Both of Mercury's domiciles are Mutable--Mercury's free to change things up, and play different roles. Libra's too unidirectional for Mercury.

Virgo's not sensual or aesthetic enough for Venus.

david starling said:

Too "formulaic", imo. Both of Mercury's domiciles are Mutable--Mercury's free to change things up, and play different roles. Libra's too unidirectional for Mercury.

Virgo's not sensual or aesthetic enough for Venus.

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We follow different schools of thought.

Virgo does have many things in common with Venus (element, gender, etc) but it is the opposition of where Venus is most high - Pisces, so it's where it is most low.

sinhtheslumberingdragon said:

We follow different schools of thought.

Virgo does have many things in common with Venus (element, gender, etc) but it is the opposition of where Venus is most high - Pisces, so it's where it is most low.

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That's the conventional formula. I find it lacks critical thinking. It's a "one pattern fits all" approach. But, if you're happy with it, that's fine for you.

sinhtheslumberingdragon said:

We follow different schools of thought.

Virgo does have many things in common with Venus (element, gender, etc) but it is the opposition of where Venus is most high - Pisces, so it's where it is most low.

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All right, suppose this pattern is correct. Now please define exactly what "in it's Fall" means in actual effect.

For example, in this same pattern, the Sun is "Exalted" in Aries, which would mean it's "in its Fall" in Libra. Does this mean there's something severely afflicted about having the Sun in Libra in a natal chart? Also, are there just a few specific degrees where Exaltation and Fall occurs, or does that include the entire signs involved?

here’s my take; crudely, Virgo is a virgin and Venus “ain’t one”

more exactly I think it has to originally be due to the ecliptic degrees as translated into equatorial degrees and the position of the planet in the given sign re to the equator/horizon, again as relative to the northern hemisphere perspective from which all major systems of astrology developed; I certainly do not think that the matter has anything to do with mercury vs venus (my opinion)

Yes, Venus is debilitated in Virgo, however the results you are going to get depend on a lot more than that. You can never look at a planet standing on its own, you have to see which house is it in and how it relates to other planets. In Vedic it's also important which Nakshatra it falls in.

Now I am not sure if you are asking which of these is more "correct" or? It depends on who you ask. I personally lean more towards Vedic and Sidereal system, but that's because it seems to work better for me. The signs feel more like who I am. Study both of your charts - not just one placement, instead read it as a whole. See what works better for you. In theory both systems work, but use what is simpler and more intuitive for you.

dr. farr said:

here’s my take; crudely, Virgo is a virgin and Venus “ain’t one”

more exactly I think it has to originally be due to the ecliptic degrees as translated into equatorial degrees and the position of the planet in the given sign re to the equator/horizon, again as relative to the northern hemisphere perspective from which all major systems of astrology developed; I certainly do not think that the matter has anything to do with mercury vs venus (my opinion)

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That's archetypal, based mostly on Greco-Romans. Who decided the constellation somehow represents a Virgin in the first place? The Babylonians saw the constellation as representing a woman holding grain and standing in a plowed furrow. She was not only married, she was otherwise rarely depicted without her husband.

My point is, that Virgo is Mercury's comfort zone, and Libra is comfortable for Venus. The qualities of Virgo don't fit the nature of Venus, and the qualities of Libra don't fit Mercury. So, they're uncomfortable in each other's domiciles.

Mercury was god of thieves, for example, and Libra is about the balance scales of law!

And I really don't envision Venus as plowing a field and harvesting crops!

david starling said:

Who decided the constellation somehow represents a Virgin in the first place? The Babylonians saw the constellation as representing a woman holding grain and standing in a plowed furrow.

And I really don't envision Venus as plowing a field and harvesting crops!

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Good points!
Actually though I do think that the origin of planetary falls had to do with the equator & the placement of planets in signs based on equatorial degrees relative to northern hemisphere horizon perceptions via visual observation; I did a thread outlining this here on AW many years ago (can’t find it now). I think (my opinion) that what started out as visual observation relative to the horizon became encrusted over the centuries by a plethora first of myth-analogies and later of theoretical explanations (the Greeks were 1st class theoreticians)

david starling said:

All right, suppose this pattern is correct. Now please define exactly what "in it's Fall" means in actual effect.

For example, in this same pattern, the Sun is "Exalted" in Aries, which would mean it's "in its Fall" in Libra. Does this mean there's something severely afflicted about having the Sun in Libra in a natal chart? Also, are there just a few specific degrees where Exaltation and Fall occurs, or does that include the entire signs involved?

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The results of a planet in fall are very contextual.
For example, if Venus is in fall, and it is ruling malefic houses, it is conisdered to be a functional malefic - whatever Venus provides and creates will harm the native. This is not the case if Venus was not afflicted.
Venus in fall on angle, say the MC, will still produce a career, but it will likely eventually destroy it. This is because Venus is by nature benefic, but by being in fall it has a hard time fulfilling it's promise in the natal chart.
Of course, it could work out well if it was assisted by benefics (moon/jupiter)but again this needs to be analyzed in context.

And yes, that is the general pattern - where a planet is most elevated (exalted) is a place of strength, vs when it is humilated (fall, 180 degrees from the exact exaltation) is a place of weakness

sinhtheslumberingdragon said:

We follow different schools of thought.

Virgo does have many things in common with Venus (element, gender, etc) but it is the opposition of where Venus is most high - Pisces, so it's where it is most low.

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The image of the Maiden is feminine, nocturnal
Domicile and exaltation of Mercury
and
depression of Venus
indicates exchanges, affairs, eloquence, trade and mysticism.
Depending on the placement of the houseruler
the Maiden is charming in conversation
useful, industrious, pure, modest, well-educated, lovers of learning

The image of the Fishes is feminine, nocturnal, fertile, passionate
Domicile of Jupiter
exaltation of Venus
depression of Mercury
Depending on the placement of the houseruler
those born under the influence of Pisces are awkward, complicated
because of the directions of the Fishes, changeable, restless, wandering, unsteady

Such, then, are the observations of the effects of the stars as made by our predecessors..
Bibliography:
Ludwich, A. (Ed.). (1877). Maximi et Ammonis carminum De actionum auspiciis reliquiae:
accedunt Anecdota astrologica. BG Teubneri. Retrieved from https://archive.org/details/maximietammonisc00ludw/page/n3
Manilius, & Goold, G. P. (1985). Astronomica. BG Teubner.
Robbins, F. E. (1940). Ptolemy: Tetrabiblos. William Heinmann, London.
Retrieved from http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/home.html
Schmidt, R. The Astrological Record of the Early Greek Sages. Project Hindsight.
Valens, V. Anthologia. Translated by Mark Riley.
Retrieved from https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf

Venus is moistening and moderately heating, benefic, feminine and nocturnal.
admired, passionate, gracious, outgoing and friendly.
Venus controls desire, love, public benefactors, wearing of golden crowns and ornaments
merriment, friendship, companionship, acquisition of additional property,
agreements on favorable terms, marriages, refined arts, pleasant sounds
music-making, sweet singing, beauty of form, painting, mixing of colours, embroidery
perfume making, inventors, the masters of crafts, working with gold and precious stones
haircutters, cleanliness, plays, giving and receiving, laughter and rejoicing
order, aquatic animals, the livelihood of the mother, assistance from women
remarkable reputations, nourishment and pleasure
multi-coloured adornments, precious stones, golden colours and greasy tastes.

Mercury is alternating between moistening and drying, and common
having excess of moist when morning rising
having excess of dry when evening rising
youthful and athletic, articulate, versatile
intelligent, tricky, busy, curious and efficient.
Mercury controls law, intelligence, speech, reason, commerce, youth, education, writing, games
disputation, brotherhood, interpretation, messengers, numbers, calculation, geometry
deception, theft, community, exercise, service, profit, inventions, attendance, athletics, wrestling
hearing, declamation, certification, supervision, weighing and measuring, testing coins
versatility, critical thinking, judgement, marketing, banking
modelers, sculptors, doctors, teachers, lawyers, orators, philosophers
architects, musicians, weight lifters, gamblers, mimes, sleight of hand
methodical work, military strategy, labour contracting, rhythmic performance
authority, luxury, renting, display of public service
irregular and disturbed outcomes with malefics

Bibliography:
Robbins, F. E. (1940). Ptolemy: Tetrabiblos. William Heinmann, London. Retrieved from http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/home.html
Valens, V. Anthologia. Translated by Mark Riley. Retrieved from https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf