12th house
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david starling
Well-known member
Not if the dwarf planet is in 12th
by the way 4th house is not 12th house topic
Actually, that was a reply to a Thread-worthy question; since I revealed that Venus is in Aquarius in H12, it was relevant to ask the House and Sign location of the native Ruler of the Sign Aquarius. The overall situation of the Ruler of the 12th House Sign is a "12th house topic"[IMO]. Traditionally, my reply would have been "(day ruler) Saturn in Leo in H6"; in which case the 6th House is also included in this H12 discussion, as it relates to H12.
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david starling
Well-known member
Since, IMO, H12 is the House of Imaginations, it is the only House where Pluto can imagine himself big enough and bright enough to be included as a ruling-Planet by even Traditional standards.
Also, since Pluto is "hidden" from view due to its distance from the Earth, it's a good fit for H12! By the same token, so is Neptune.
Also, since Pluto is "hidden" from view due to its distance from the Earth, it's a good fit for H12! By the same token, so is Neptune.
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True, but that is a new development. It is so very different than it was when us old timers began doing charts. We calculated the entire chart by hand using an ephemeris and a pen and paper.
Every chart took hours to do. And it was more of a Neptunian experience to prepare for a client. It took a long time, it was like a ritual, and it was more of a meditation as one drew up the chart by hand with colored pencils, from calculations in a notebook.
As computers emerged, it was wonderful. And I know it helped with the sudden surge of interest from the Pluto in Scorpio and Sag generations. HOWEVER, it also has some drawbacks.
Having a gazillion asteroid aspects drawn into a million new kinds of specialty charts can just give too much ancillary data, much of which is possibly irrelevant.
I think in many ways it is better for us to keep going back to the basics.
Ah ! Then maybe i am on the right track.. I have Gemini Sun and Mercury in the third Decan ruled by Uranus 😃(no pun intended)
Marcoilrosso
Well-known member
You see the signs where you have 12th (example: aquarius-pisces). Then you search in the chart where you have Saturn (rule aquarius) and Jupiter (rule pisces).
The place where they are, would mean the first channel for this house.
Example: you have a Jupiter-Saturn conjunction in the X. One of the best signification now in my mind be that of triumph (X house) over secret enemies (12th). Perhaps it will involve delays and hard work (implied by Saturn), but even good help for it (Jupiter).
The place where they are, would mean the first channel for this house.
Example: you have a Jupiter-Saturn conjunction in the X. One of the best signification now in my mind be that of triumph (X house) over secret enemies (12th). Perhaps it will involve delays and hard work (implied by Saturn), but even good help for it (Jupiter).
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Good point, well made
and furthermore,
as well as Venus being located in 12th House
since 12th House in the particular case cited is Aquarius
then Saturn in Leo in 6th House is factored in
and furthermore
Since Saturn in Leo is in Suns domicile
then Sun also requires assessment
because these factors are all related to 12th House issues
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
since Traditionally
Since, IMO, H12 is the House of Imaginations,
it is the only House where Pluto can imagine himself big enough and bright enough to be included as a ruling-Planet by even Traditional standards.
9th House significations include Imagination
and since
clearly a dwarf planet has insufficient mass for planetary status
that theory although imaginative is a non-starter vis a vis 12th house matters
distance as well as the tiny size of dwarf planets
means they are indeed "hidden" from view
as are multitudes of other celestial objects of similar size
That celestial object is certainly a planet
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Aquarius ruling 12th
with a Jupiter-Saturn conjunction in 10th house
implies Pisces Ascendant
and therefore a Jupiter-Saturn conjunction in Sagittarius
Sagittarius is the domicile of Jupiter
and so in this particular case Saturn is not in own domicile
and therefore weakened
Jupiter Saturn conjunction has a variable effect
dependent on the SIGN
as well as the house location
however obviously a chart of the theoretical example mentioned
is required in order to assess
Marcoilrosso
Well-known member
Aquarius ruling 12th
with a Jupiter-Saturn conjunction in 10th house
implies Pisces Ascendant
and therefore a Jupiter-Saturn conjunction in Sagittarius
Sagittarius is the domicile of Jupiter
and so in this particular case Saturn is not in own domicile
and therefore weakened
Jupiter Saturn conjunction has a variable effect
dependent on the SIGN
as well as the house location
however obviously a chart of the theoretical example mentioned
is required in order to assess
I was doing an example to tell David the principle behind that form.
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Easier to assess by viewing the natal chart
12th House Saturns vary according to Sign location
Marcoilrosso
Well-known member
In a nativity, zodiac positions of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus ec... it is way better to take them with a grain of salt. Here there is relativity. For too many people have it, and their symbols are too vast to be confined in such reasoning (which sometimes leaves little coherence even for Mercury, in spite of its rapid motion). What passiflora writes, does not surprise me at all.
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Why "ouch" for Libra Saturn in joy in 12th house?
natal chart shows that only five minutes earlier, ascendant was Virgo
and so then
in this particular case
we need to be certain the time of birth IS reliable
so was the natal chart calculated using a time from medical records?
or some other source
such as memory
or birth certificate
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Would be simpler to comment by viewing your siblings chart
if you have their permission to post it
keep in mind when delineating malefic Saturn and benefic Jupiter
If the natural malefics are positively placed in the chart
well dignified, strong in position and involved in good aspects
their influence may be beneficial rather than afflicting.
If the benefics are in a damaged condition
and
make difficult aspects
or
act as rulers the houses that are traditionally considered unfortunate,
i.e.
4th house 6th House 8th House and 12th House
they cease to be beneficial and are capable of causing affliction http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/benefics.html
Reading you here it seems like there are two sides, one that says its "bad bad, terribly bad", and the other one lacks one "bad" in the previous sentence. As that being further discussed, tell us your oppinion whether there Is a way to work on it, how to minimise the effect of "badness" for that "joyous" placement. Because it doesn't seem to be good to be the owner of one right now 
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My 12H Saturn if someone is interested. http://i66.tinypic.com/8z3fop.png
scarlett_early
Active member
I love this topic! I couldn't read through all of the posts yet, but just from the first page I was so intrigued. I don't know if it's because my Sun is in the 12th house (and is Pisces) or what, but I feel really strongly about this house and it's symbolism. My South Node is also in the 12th house. Sometimes I wonder whether these things put a bit of a Neptunian emphasis on me. I have a lot of planets in Capricorn, which grounds me quite a bit and gives me a major streak of responsibility, being a stickler for tradition and also a hard worker. ... Sometimes. But I do swing into times of going into my own mind/imagination/fantasy. I have a fantasy version of myself who has a pretty complex life in my head... "mental movies" (hopefully that makes sense). I have a pretty strong tendency for escapism and fantasy of a variety of sorts. But it's like a war inside me, between that aspect and the grounded, responsible me. I don't know. Maybe it doesn't have too much to do with this. But I have a feeling it does. My South node in Pisces in the 12th house is probably making me over-analyse this too much though. 
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Marcoilrosso
Well-known member
Reading you here it seems like there are two sides, one that says its "bad bad, terribly bad", and the other one lacks one "bad" in the previous sentence. As that being further discussed, tell us your oppinion whether there Is a way to work on it, how to minimise the effect of "badness" for that "joyous" placement. Because it doesn't seem to be good to be the owner of one right now
Yes, there is a way.
To describe it, will involve very long time. However...
A good beginning, is to take care you detect the places Saturn dispose of: (example: houses 2nd and I). These matters, which are somewhat subterrean, will find primary expression through the channel of 12th matters and Saturn. Start to take care you detect about what these placements mean in your life events: most of all, of what they had meant in the past life.
Saturn seems to like much definition in terms: so decide a precise time (example, the 8 of march). Forbid yourself any jumping to conclusions before that date. For veto is a symbol of the planet. Saturn is the call to the so-called matter-of-facts, so it is better you don't use astrological theory while reflecting about this. After this, try speaking with a good and trusted friend of yours in your free time: for you will bring the influence of Jupiter-Saturn to help.
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Marcoilrosso
Well-known member
I am sorry, I had written an answer to you on word, but I had forgotten to post it yesterday.
Is this your own chart? http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=58597&d=1457157088
I use orb of maximum 5 degrees for square contact. So, in my practice, I remove aspects which go more than this (in your case Mercury-Saturn stays out). But something about your family place and your roots seems affected as well as your siblings: this may include some trouble with them. With time, you started to feel lonely somehow. It is perhaps even that you were going to parties you found not of very good taste, or simply boring and heavy: and while this may mean something enough light for most of the people, you may have taken pretty seriously. This somehow, reflects on relationships. You should arrange much with Saturn-Venus sextile, and cultivate the channels of I house and the 2nd-8th axis. A good beginning is very similar to which I have written before to Bbi. It will be bitter-sweet, no piece of cake. But it is realizable, workable, and something you can apply in this life. And you have the help of Venus with it. That is not all sweet, does not mean it is unworthy.
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Marcoilrosso
Well-known member
I had written of the thing which you will gain help from. But there is the square of Saturn to your Sun-Neptune conjunction in the 3rd: well, your placements, are perhaps the most good examples we can get to treat astrology and its matters, and to treat what lies behind its language. A good channel to this square stress. You can read what Carter writes about the aspects, in his book on aspects, and in Essays on astrology to understand better what I mean about what lies behind the language of astrology (this will even Pluto action).
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