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  #51  
Unread 04-19-2019, 08:46 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

I'm still waiting for an actual, hand-drawn natal-chart by Morin himself, to determine whether he was tropical or sidereal. Also, if sidereal, what ayanamsa? He wrote a lot that's still in existence, must be at least ONE such chart available. Here's a conspiracy theory for you: The tropicalists who first studied his methods didn't want anyone to KNOW he was siderealist, so they removed that information from their research!

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  #52  
Unread 04-19-2019, 09:07 PM
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Smile Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

What I'm saying is, Precession matters Big Time, both tropically and sidereally, as to how we relate as a species to the mundane realm (tropical), and the spiritual realm (sidereal).
It's not just for locating Sign-boundaries and determining sidereal SRs. It's for how we function collectively in the real world.
Where do you think all this new technology is coming from? It's world-wide now, with just few pockets of resistance.
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  #53  
Unread 04-19-2019, 09:51 PM
SunConjunctUranus SunConjunctUranus is offline
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Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Nah off topic, bruh. Morin never explain anything about "Ages" concept. Do you have any source that say otherwise?
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  #54  
Unread 04-19-2019, 10:20 PM
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Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post


What I'm saying is,
Precession matters
Big Time,
both tropically
and sidereally,



as to how we relate as a species to the mundane realm (tropical), and the spiritual realm (sidereal).
It's not just for locating Sign-boundaries and determining sidereal SRs. It's for how we function collectively in the real world.
Where do you think all this new technology is coming from? It's world-wide now, with just few pockets of resistance.
furthermore

Martin Gansten
author of Primary Directions: Astrology's Old Master Technique
a siderealist

has stated

Quote:

Precessing tropicalists just want to have it both ways.

Papretis, a siderealist commented:
Quote:

Personally the logic behind the precession corrected return charts
appeals little to me.

Either it's pure tropical returns, or sidereal returns.
If astrologers have found the sidereal / precession corrected returns charts to work,
that may hint about the validity of the sidereal zodiac in general.
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  #55  
Unread 04-19-2019, 10:33 PM
SunConjunctUranus SunConjunctUranus is offline
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Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

So Morin was absolutely sidereus!

Quote:
muddled thinking
LMFAO!
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  #56  
Unread 04-19-2019, 10:45 PM
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Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post


So Morin was absolutely sidereus!

LMFAO!
Morin was an innovator

but that's a topic for another thread
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  #57  
Unread 04-19-2019, 10:53 PM
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Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Morin was an innovator

but that's a topic for another thread
Yes. But the Ages indicators are in "absolute space" thought. So, not sure what ds' asserted in this thread.
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  #58  
Unread 04-20-2019, 01:26 AM
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Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Well David, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't see the path of the sun moving that quickly. La Clef and La Clef Hermetique chapters of The Light of Egypt make too much sense to me. 7200 years to a degree.

oops

Actually, we are talking about different things, I am talking about the shift of the path of the sun 1 degree north every 7200 years.....I just realized the problem.....yes 72 years is the amount of time allotted to 1 degree of an age........

Global warming, will happen more each 7200 years, as the path of the sun at its height hits closer to the poles.
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  #59  
Unread 04-20-2019, 01:27 AM
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Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

By 1 degree every 7200 years.....
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  #60  
Unread 04-20-2019, 04:51 AM
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Smile Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post
Well David, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't see the path of the sun moving that quickly. La Clef and La Clef Hermetique chapters of The Light of Egypt make too much sense to me. 7200 years to a degree.

oops

Actually, we are talking about different things, I am talking about the shift of the path of the sun 1 degree north every 7200 years.....I just realized the problem.....yes 72 years is the amount of time allotted to 1 degree of an age........

Global warming, will happen more each 7200 years, as the path of the sun at its height hits closer to the poles.
So, an increase in Axial Tilt. It's at 23 1/2 degrees now at Solitice. I'll check what astronomers predict about a serious increase. Sometimes, even a 1 degree change can make a big difference.
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  #61  
Unread 04-20-2019, 04:52 AM
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Smile Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post
Nah off topic, bruh. Morin never explain anything about "Ages" concept. Do you have any source that say otherwise?
Do you have a source that says he didn't?
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  #62  
Unread 04-20-2019, 04:56 AM
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Smile Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post
So Morin was absolutely sidereus!



LMFAO!
What's your source? Cool word, "sidereus"!
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  #63  
Unread 04-20-2019, 05:08 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post
Nah off topic, bruh. Morin never explain anything about "Ages" concept. Do you have any source that say otherwise?
Uh, speaking of "off topic"----^,

I'm asking about the possibility that there are tropical Ages, not about ancient astrologers who never mentioned even the well-known sidereal Ages we have now. It's in the Modern forum for a reason.
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  #64  
Unread 04-20-2019, 07:37 AM
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Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Uh, speaking of "off topic"----^,

I'm asking about the possibility that there are tropical Ages, not about ancient astrologers who never mentioned even the well-known sidereal Ages we have now. It's in the Modern forum for a reason.
because you just mentioned sidereal in tandem with tropical
and I quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post


What I'm saying is,
Precession matters
Big Time,
both tropically
and sidereally,



as to how we relate as a species to the mundane realm (tropical), and the spiritual realm (sidereal).
It's not just for locating Sign-boundaries and determining sidereal SRs. It's for how we function collectively in the real world.
Where do you think all this new technology is coming from? It's world-wide now, with just few pockets of resistance.
Siriusly
in response, it's worth stating that
arguments AGAINST precession corrected tropical astrology
are found in this piece from the Astrodienst
( Astro.com) website.

Quote:
5 Do you offer precession correction in transits or solar return charts?


No we don't.
Because we do not consider the method logical and consistent in itself.

Tropical astrology uses a frame of reference
which moves with the rhythm of the Sun-Moon-Earth system.
The technique of "precession correction" breaks this system
trying to introduce a notion of "natal birth marks in absolute space".

This is false on several levels:
The reference frame it introduces is not absolute,
it translates and rotates with the (fast) movement of the solar system within the galaxy.
A transiting planet does never return to the point in absolute space where it once was.
The concept of "return charts"
and of transits altogether is
- on a deeper level - a symbolic concept
rather than a physical concept.
It should therefore be applied in a consistent symbolic system
and not in an inconsistent potpourri of systems.
If you want to get around precession,
we recommend to do "sidereal" astrology
with one of its unprecessed reference frames.
We don't think it makes sense to mix incompatible systems.
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  #65  
Unread 04-20-2019, 07:38 AM
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Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

cont/.....

response relevant to your comment

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post


What I'm saying is,
Precession matters
Big Time,
both tropically
and sidereally,


as to how we relate as a species to the mundane realm (tropical), and the spiritual realm (sidereal).
It's not just for locating Sign-boundaries and determining sidereal SRs. It's for how we function collectively in the real world.
Where do you think all this new technology is coming from? It's world-wide now, with just few pockets of resistance.
Quote:
Personally I have no problem with people preferring sidereal over tropical astrology.
However, as I see it the idea that 'precession correction'
somehow represents an improvement over normal tropical astrology
is a result of muddled thinking
Its noteable that
many of those most passionate in advocating 'precession corrected charts'
for tropical charts are already siderealists anyway.
Is that a hint?
As I see it this is often a trojan horse argument
to undermine the tropical zodiac.
The tropical zodiac doesn't require 'correction'
and this implication is rather insulting to many tropical astrologers
who get perfectly good results without any need for such tinkering.
IMHO Tropicalists that go along with this kind of argument
are applying a confused methodology.
__________________
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  #66  
Unread 04-20-2019, 07:41 AM
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Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

response is to OP comment
and I quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post


In Horoscope Symbols, R. Hand

speculated about an astrological indicator, a measured point of some kind,

that would represent our own planet's astrological effect on a Chart.
Only time I've seen that idea in print.
That's when I realized something he didn't
--that it was the Age Indicator, which moves due to Earth's wobble as it rotates.
regarding precession corrected transits one supporter appears to be Robert Hand
In Planets in Transit (1976) Hand states:
Quote:
"Most astrologers are aware that the vernal equinox, otherwise known as the first point of Aries,
does not remain stationary with respect to the fixed stars but moves backwards through them
at a rate of approximately 50.25 seconds per year
....The problem for us is
...that the timing of transits taken in the two zodiacs begins to differ as a person gets older
...this problem almost immediately begins to affect return charts
...In other words, one should treat the natal positions of the planets as if they were fixed stars
....many astrologers agree that at the very least,
determining the positions of the natal chart corrected for precession
helps significantly in timing events".


Robert Hand also states

Quote:
my own experience has been
that in timing an event the corrected positions
are more accurate than the uncorrected ones
Planets in Transits, p30.

HOWEVER

these words were written thirty-five years ago
Since that time Robert Hand has completely changed his personal approach to astrology
since writing these earlier books there followed his involvement in Project Hindsight http://www.projecthindsight.com/
and his extensive study of medieval and Hellenistic astrology.

by the way
REQUIESCANT IN PACE Robert Schmidt of Project Hindsight
passed away December 2018
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  #67  
Unread 04-20-2019, 07:44 AM
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Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post

Well David, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

I don't see the path of the sun moving that quickly.
La Clef and La Clef Hermetique chapters of The Light of Egypt make too much sense to me.
7200 years to a degree.

oops

Actually,

we are talking about different things,

I am talking about the shift of the path of the sun 1 degree north every 7200 years
.....I just realized the problem
.....yes 72 years is the amount of time allotted to 1 degree of an age........

Global warming, will happen more each 7200 years,

as the path of the sun at its height hits closer to the poles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post


By 1 degree every 7200 years.....
thank you for that clarification
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  #68  
Unread 04-20-2019, 08:48 AM
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Smile Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
because you just mentioned sidereal in tandem with tropical
and I quote

Siriusly
in response, it's worth stating that
arguments AGAINST precession corrected tropical astrology
are found in this piece from the Astrodienst
( Astro.com) website.

Quote:
5 Do you offer precession correction in transits or solar return charts?


No we don't.
Because we do not consider the method logical and consistent in itself.

Tropical astrology uses a frame of reference
which moves with the rhythm of the Sun-Moon-Earth system.
The technique of "precession correction" breaks this system
trying to introduce a notion of "natal birth marks in absolute space".

This is false on several levels:
The reference frame it introduces is not absolute,
it translates and rotates with the (fast) movement of the solar system within the galaxy.
A transiting planet does never return to the point in absolute space where it once was.
The concept of "return charts"
and of transits altogether is
- on a deeper level - a symbolic concept
rather than a physical concept.
It should therefore be applied in a consistent symbolic system
and not in an inconsistent potpourri of systems.
If you want to get around precession,
we recommend to do "sidereal" astrology
with one of its unprecessed reference frames.
We don't think it makes sense to mix incompatible systems.
What's this got to do with the use of precession for astrological Ages?
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  #69  
Unread 04-20-2019, 08:49 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
cont/.....

response relevant to your comment



Quote:
Personally I have no problem with people preferring sidereal over tropical astrology.
However, as I see it the idea that 'precession correction'
somehow represents an improvement over normal tropical astrology
is a result of muddled thinking
Its noteable that
many of those most passionate in advocating 'precession corrected charts'
for tropical charts are already siderealists anyway.
Is that a hint?
As I see it this is often a trojan horse argument
to undermine the tropical zodiac.
The tropical zodiac doesn't require 'correction'
and this implication is rather insulting to many tropical astrologers
who get perfectly good results without any need for such tinkering.
IMHO Tropicalists that go along with this kind of argument
are applying a confused methodology.
What's this got to do with the use of precession for astrological Ages?
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  #70  
Unread 04-20-2019, 11:12 AM
SunConjunctUranus SunConjunctUranus is offline
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Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Ds,

Is it because Morin was employed by Bishop so he defended a theory that Earth is static? This is a conspiracy theory too imo. This is one of his theory which totally irrelevant for today's knowledge.

Ds, sidereus is latinized word. You could say I'm an expert in literature.

Btw, how do you spell "Morin" in English? We spelling his name with "Moráng".
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  #71  
Unread 04-20-2019, 12:18 PM
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Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post
Ds,

Is it because Morin was employed by Bishop so he defended a theory that Earth is static? This is a conspiracy theory too imo. This is one of his theory which totally irrelevant for today's knowledge.

Ds, sidereus is latinized word. You could say I'm an expert in literature.

Btw, how do you spell "Morin" in English? We spelling his name with "Moráng".
In English, the same as the French, Morin.
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  #72  
Unread 04-20-2019, 12:39 PM
SunConjunctUranus SunConjunctUranus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cary2 View Post
In English, the same as the French, Morin.
Thanks Cary2,

From what I hear in French, it sounds like "Jong Baptiste Moráng" though. At least in Latinized spell, am not sure English speaker would spell that way.
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  #73  
Unread 04-20-2019, 12:53 PM
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Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Burgoyne states that the shift to aquarius and the shift of the path was complete at the winter solstice in if my memory serves me well 1881. I will check the exact date later.

A full cycle is millions of years. It makes sense to me that the earth would continue spinning and rejuvenating always. The reason for the walls of Babel having to be so thick......were because of the affects of the sun traveling from pole to pole for 64,000 ish years. The extremes in weather would have been so extreme.....that the ages of horror.....or the iron ages, if you prefer were aptly named.....
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  #74  
Unread 04-20-2019, 01:03 PM
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Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post
Thanks Cary2,

From what I hear in French, it sounds like "Jong Baptiste Moráng" though. At least in Latinized spell, am not sure English speaker would spell that way.
I might be wrong; I thought "Morin" was the French spelling. There are many American names that were originally French, and the pronunciation is very different.

For instance, Gilbert is pronounced totally differently.
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  #75  
Unread 04-20-2019, 01:11 PM
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Re: The Possibility of Tropical Ages

The spelling is the same, the pronunciation is different.

The would be an e at the end of Baptiste though

Last edited by Opal; 04-20-2019 at 01:30 PM.
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