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Modern Astrology For discussions on Modern Astrology only. (Note: Typically, modern astrology is defined as using techniques developed around the late 1800s by Theosophists. Specifically it relies on psychological, evolutionary, karmic, and non-western interpretation approaches and includes Neptune, Uranus and Pluto, and non-Ptolemaic aspects. The focus is more on psychological chart interpretation instead of prediction.)


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  #26  
Unread 03-27-2019, 09:41 PM
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Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Someone at Skyscript got it wrong then.

You should tell them.
www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html
Skyscript are, or is, not Ptolemy

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  #27  
Unread 03-27-2019, 09:56 PM
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Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

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The five Ptolemaic ''dignities'' are the following, house, triangle, exaltation, term and proper face, all equal in power.

The five methods of predomination/rulership are house, triangle, exaltation, term and whole sign conjunction/aspect, again, all equal in power (+ 1).

Everything else is misattribution.
There are literally countless misattributions from the Medieval period, including the so-called ''Ptolemaic dignities'' including decans. So until someone shows one mention in the comparatively lengthy Tetrabiblos of the concept of detriment, it simply did not exist. According to Ptolemy, Saturn in fiery places, like Cancer, Leo and Virgo would be slightly weakened due to the heating season, but in Leo in particular it would rejoice, since it is the domicile and triangle of diurnal planets, from which he is able to help his sect-mates.
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  #28  
Unread 03-27-2019, 09:58 PM
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Smile Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Skyscript are, or is, not Ptolemy
Neither is petosiris.
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  #29  
Unread 03-27-2019, 09:58 PM
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Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

What is called ''Ptolemaic table'' is usually a standard medieval dignity table, that simply replaces the Dorothean triplicities and Egyptian terms, with the Ptolemaic triplicities and one of the existing tabular variations of Ptolemy's terms.
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  #30  
Unread 03-27-2019, 09:59 PM
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Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

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Neither is petosiris.
How can I show that he did not know the concept if he never mentions it? You do understand the burden of proof and common sense right?
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  #31  
Unread 03-27-2019, 10:05 PM
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Smile Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
There are literally countless misattributions from the Medieval period, including the so-called ''Ptolemaic dignities'' including decans. So until someone shows one mention in the comparatively lengthy Tetrabiblos of the concept of detriment, it simply did not exist. According to Ptolemy, Saturn in fiery places, like Cancer, Leo and Virgo would be slightly weakened due to the heating season, but in Leo in particular it would rejoice, since it is the domicile and triangle of diurnal planets, from which he is able to help his sect-mates.
Thanks! You are a gentleman(?) and a scholar(!).
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  #32  
Unread 03-27-2019, 10:05 PM
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Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post

Neither is petosiris.
Siriusly
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  #33  
Unread 03-27-2019, 10:09 PM
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Smile Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

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How can I show that he did not know the concept if he never mentions it? You do understand the burden of proof and common sense right?
I trust your expertise. Who initiated the concept of Detriment? It seems to have become a "standard" description. Would you characterize it as Traditional or Modern?
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  #34  
Unread 03-27-2019, 10:09 PM
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Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

How can I show that he did not know the concept if he never mentions it?
You do understand the burden of proof and common sense right?
common sense is as follows
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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

What is called ''Ptolemaic table''

is usually a standard medieval dignity table, that
simply replaces the Dorothean triplicities and Egyptian terms, with
the Ptolemaic triplicities and one of the existing tabular variations of Ptolemy's terms.
thanks for casting some light on the subject

modernists and beginner traditionalists are unaware of these facts
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Thanks! You are a gentleman(?) and a scholar(!).
even if not Ptolemy
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  #35  
Unread 03-27-2019, 10:11 PM
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Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post


I trust your expertise.

Who initiated the concept of Detriment?
It seems to have become a "standard" description.

Would you characterize it as Traditional or Modern?
you need to read Ptolemy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchyone View Post


There really is no debate on what the traditional dignities are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_dignity

When these were determined, the outer planets weren't used yet, so
there has been some debate about Uranus and more about Neptune

and Pluto and whether they fit into the scheme.
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  #36  
Unread 03-27-2019, 10:13 PM
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Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
I trust your expertise. Who initiated the concept of Detriment? It seems to have become a "standard" description. Would you characterize it as Traditional or Modern?
It doesn't appear in Hellenistic astrology until very late, and in Indian at all (presumably because they never got it from the preceding). It exists as concept in some later Hellenistic authors as ''opposition'' (the aspect was called ''diameter''), but I am not sure whether it was deemed worse than fall, as it is with the majority of Arabs, Medieval and Renaissance astrologers. So it is ''traditional'' in this respect, just its early origins and theory (in my opinion) are in doubt.
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  #37  
Unread 03-27-2019, 10:17 PM
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Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

One hypothesis I may propose for its greater prevalence is that it offers an ''opposite'' bad placement for the good placement of domicile. However, Ptolemy treats bad placement with respect to the universe by examining whether the rulers of the domicile, exaltation, triangle and term are diurnal or nocturnal, as apparently did Antiochus and his followers. This theory and method was totally lost with the Arabs.
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  #38  
Unread 03-27-2019, 10:25 PM
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Smile Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
One hypothesis I may propose for its greater prevalence is that it offers an ''opposite'' bad placement for the good placement of domicile. However, Ptolemy treats bad placement with respect to the universe by examining whether the rulers of the domicile, exaltation, triangle and term are diurnal or nocturnal, as apparently did Antiochus and his followers. This theory and method was totally lost with the Arabs.
I like this rejection of the "if one is "good", the opposite must be somehow "bad". Saw one opinion that Exaltation itself, if not moderated by other factors, results in arrogance and a sense of unearned entitlement.
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  #39  
Unread 03-27-2019, 10:30 PM
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Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

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I like this rejection of the "if one is "good", the opposite must be somehow "bad".
Saw one opinion that Exaltation itself, if not moderated by other factors,
results in arrogance and a sense of unearned entitlement.
and so explain how this relates to
our debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo
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Unread 03-27-2019, 11:05 PM
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Smile Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

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and so explain how this relates to
our debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo
Well, let's see....hmm....oh, it's about the effects of an Exalted Planet, and this discussion is about Exaltation! I'm surprised I had to explain that.
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  #41  
Unread 03-28-2019, 12:26 AM
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Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

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Well, let's see....hmm....oh, it's about the effects of an Exalted Planet, and this discussion is about Exaltation!
I'm surprised I had to explain that.
Siriusly easily surprised
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Unread 04-03-2019, 02:39 AM
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Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

this thread turned into french for me lol
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  #43  
Unread 04-03-2019, 05:36 AM
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Smile Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

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this thread turned into french for me lol
There's more than one version of the Table of Dignities and Debilities. I went to a supposedly reliable, knowledgeable site, and they misrepresented the ancient Ptolemy's table as having planets in Detriment. Our Hellenistic scholar, petosiris, aka ptolemy, has informed us otherwise.
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Unread 04-04-2019, 09:27 PM
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Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

Mars is exalted in 28' Capricorn (or in solar birth dates, Jan. 17-18th is when the sun is in this tropical degree of Capricorn)...in sabian symbols, 27-28' Cap is a mountain pilgrimage and 28-29' Cap a large aviary (a flock of birds).
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or , I have the same ruling planets: Uranus and Saturn. I see the Cancer rising. Aries in the MC and Venus was her name!
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  #45  
Unread 04-06-2019, 04:52 PM
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Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
There's more than one version of the Table of Dignities and Debilities. I went to a supposedly reliable, knowledgeable site, and they misrepresented the ancient Ptolemy's table as having planets in Detriment. Our Hellenistic scholar, petosiris, aka ptolemy, has informed us otherwise.
Here I made a table according to the Tetrabiblos - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=125698



All these dignities are similar in effectiveness (''+ 1''). ''I'' means inferior, or rising after the Sun (evening and western), ''S'' means superior, or rising before the Moon. Venus and Moon cooperate with Mars in the triangle of Cancer, but they do not rule it. The proper faces are by sign.

See Tetrabiblos 1.17 - 1.23
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...blos/home.html
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  #46  
Unread 04-06-2019, 04:56 PM
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Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Here I made a table according to the Tetrabiblos - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=125698



All these dignities are similar in effectiveness (''+ 1''). ''I'' means inferior, or rising after the Sun (evening and western), ''S'' means superior, or rising before the Moon. Venus and Moon cooperate with Mars in the triangle of Cancer, but they do not rule it. The proper faces are by sign.

See Tetrabiblos 1.17 - 1.23
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...blos/home.html
Thankyou for taking the time to do this
clear concise summary
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Unread 04-06-2019, 05:00 PM
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Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

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Originally Posted by The19thLaw View Post

this thread turned into french for me lol
It's all Greek to me
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  #48  
Unread 04-07-2019, 07:04 PM
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Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

Leo is right, as pluto rules Forthrightness
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  #49  
Unread 04-07-2019, 07:14 PM
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Smile Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

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Leo is right, as pluto rules Forthrightness
I have Pluto in Leo as imparting a sense of Self-Direction. That could be interpreted as "Forthrightness". Haven't heard that particular description of Pluto before. It's usually "Obsessive" and "Intense".

Last edited by david starling; 04-07-2019 at 07:31 PM.
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Unread 04-07-2019, 07:30 PM
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Smile Re: Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

And, "Transformational".
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