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  #1  
Unread 08-31-2019, 07:17 PM
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Natal chart & conception chart

I found out my possible conception chart through a method called "Prenatal Epoch",and I read somewhere that both natal and conception matter in a way.
Astrologers' opinion about it vary.
Do you also consider conception chart as important or only natal?
I'm curious about my conception chart,compared to the natal one.
If the thread doesn't match here,I'll post it in another category.
My conception chart https://imgur.com/a/COPmpvr
Rules of Prenatal Epoch and how it's done:
http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm
My natal chart:http://imgur.com/a/gk5wNSi

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  #2  
Unread 08-31-2019, 08:35 PM
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Re: Natal chart & conception chart

The conception chart is so hard to get a hold of that people settle for the natal chart. The confidence in the chart is probably not as high as the natal as you can verify to the minute when a child is born. It's harder to verify the moment of conception and even with the methods out there to figure out a chart of conception it's still a dubious affair.

It's largely untested, so we await those experimenters who will go out there and test the efficacy of the charts in delineation.

It happened even in the case of natal charts where when those weren't possible, a "permanent" horary chart was used for individuals. I forget which astrologer it was but I think he was among the Medievals/Arabians.
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Last edited by conspiracy theorist; 08-31-2019 at 08:38 PM.
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  #3  
Unread 08-31-2019, 08:49 PM
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Re: Natal chart & conception chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgotten Warrior View Post


I found out my possible conception chart through a method called "Prenatal Epoch",and I read somewhere that both natal and conception matter in a way.
Astrologers' opinion about it vary.
Do you also consider conception chart as important or only natal?
I'm curious about my conception chart,compared to the natal one.
If the thread doesn't match here,I'll post it in another category.
My conception chart https://imgur.com/a/COPmpvr
Rules of Prenatal Epoch and how it's done:
http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm
My natal chart:http://imgur.com/a/gk5wNSi


https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...23&postcount=9
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post


Ah, well how stupid am I. I forgot to explain the whole premise behind the two theories.

Okay, this Egyptian Method Ptolemy relates is Angle/Pivot-based.

If the Hyleg is found in Quadrant II -- a Feminine Quadrant comprising the 7th, 8th and 9th Houses --- then the Hyleg and any Planets in the 7th, 8th or 9th Houses, are directed to the Descendant Point. The Arc of Direction is the "base years" and the Arcs for Benefics/Malefics in Quadrant II add/subtract to that.

If the Hyleg is in Quadrant I -- a Masculine Quadrant of the 12th, 11th and 10th Houses, then, uh, well, here's where Zoller and a few others are going to have a cow.

Most say to direct the Hyleg and Planets to the MC. That isn't exactly what Ptolemy says; they confused the technique of directing with the technique for determining life span; that would be really hard to do since they didn't use the MC for a long time; and even when they were using the MC, it was actually the 0° Point of the 10th Sign.

You actually direct the Ascending Degree in Primary Motion (clock-wise) to the Planets in Quadrant I.

Anyway, there are like some 50+ surviving manuscripts of Ptolemy's work, and no, Ptolemy did not write them, rather other people copied them from other manuscripts, including the original manuscript. All manuscripts have variations and deviations from one extent to another, including the chapters being arranged out of order and amendations and deletions to the text.

So, now we can see how doctrines and concepts get messed up in translation and misunderstanding over the centuries (and even recent days apparently).

As I mentioned on another thread, Ptolemy retells a method of calculating a Conception Chart, and from this Conception Chart, Ptolemy claimed one could determine the Native's future rank or station in life, whether the birth would be a single birth, or a multiple birth (like twins) and whether the child would be born deformed or have birth defects.


Someone copying Ptolemy's manuscript re-arranged the order of the chapters to make it appear that Ptolemy was using the Natal Chart to determine the Native's rank and station in life....instead of the Conception Chart.

Fast forward a few centuries, and you have Jewish and Arab astrologers pulling out their hair....or maybe their beards...trying to figure out why they keep failing when using Ptolemy's...on a Natal Chart....because they don't understand that Ptolemy was using a Conception Chart.

So they try to crow-bar a new scheme of "body-guarding" to conform with Ptolemy's method.

That fails...obviously...so a few centuries later, they try to crow-bar a second scheme of "body-guarding" into the Natal Chart.


That failed, too.

So here we all are.....centuries later.....still trying to figure out how to determine a person's rank and fame in life.

That same sad story repeats itself with the Hyleg.


From 1900 BCE to 1700 CE, the Human Race actually got really dumb before they started to get smart (or I suppose less dumb), and they still ain't really all that.

Armed with really bad copies of Ptolemy's work containing amendations, errors and omissions, and not knowing a thing about math and how to calculate ascensional differences and things, the Latins, Jews and Arabs are trying to figure out Ptolemy's scheme of longevity predicting....they can't do it....maybe they're looking for short-cuts.....so they crow-bar another technique on top of Ptolemy's Egyptian Method, and that's how we end up with the Hyleg & Alcochoden.

Like Math and Science, in Astrology, you can get the right result for the wrong reasons.

Their work-around for the Egyptian Method of longevity prediction works....for awhile, and then it breaks down, and when it does....that's when people start creating "exceptions to the rules"....now you can have the Sun in the 8th and the Moon Below Earth in the 3rd House and blah, blah, blah, blah....except that each new "exception to the rule" only creates more exceptions, because the method keeps breaking down.

So here we all are.....centuries later.....still trying to figure out how to determine a person's longevity.

The Hyleg & Alcochoden Method is very arbitrary and highly subjective, which is why it sometimes gives the correct answer, and sometimes not.

The Hyleg Method with Primary Directions is based on math and science, is much less subjective, and consistently yields more accurate results.
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  #4  
Unread 08-31-2019, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
The conception chart is so hard to get a hold of that people settle for the natal chart. The confidence in the chart is probably not as high as the natal as you can verify to the minute when a child is born. It's harder to verify the moment of conception and even with the methods out there to figure out a chart of conception it's still a dubious affair.

It's largely untested, so we await those experimenters who will go out there and test the efficacy of the charts in delineation.

It happened even in the case of natal charts where when those weren't possible, a "permanent" horary chart was used for individuals. I forget which astrologer it was but I think he was among the Medievals/Arabians.
And that's where the uncertainty comes from,a birth can't be predicted...
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Unread 08-31-2019, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
The conception chart is so hard to get a hold of that people settle for the natal chart. The confidence in the chart is probably not as high as the natal as you can verify to the minute when a child is born. It's harder to verify the moment of conception and even with the methods out there to figure out a chart of conception it's still a dubious affair.

It's largely untested, so we await those experimenters who will go out there and test the efficacy of the charts in delineation.

It happened even in the case of natal charts where when those weren't possible, a "permanent" horary chart was used for individuals. I forget which astrologer it was but I think he was among the Medievals/Arabians.
I believe it was Albumashar, as reported by his assistant. He used a horary when birth data was unavailable.

Oh. Prenatal Epoch. I've experimented with it. I use the natal -- perfectly adquate.

The natal chart is set for "the moment of first breath as an independent being". I am not interested in "baby as a parasitic growth within a female", but as an independent being.

Last edited by greybeard; 08-31-2019 at 11:40 PM.
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  #6  
Unread 09-01-2019, 10:28 AM
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Re: Natal chart & conception chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post

I believe it was Albumashar, as reported by his assistant. He used a horary when birth data was unavailable.

Oh. Prenatal Epoch. I've experimented with it. I use the natal -- perfectly adquate.
The natal chart is set for "the moment of first breath as an independent being".
I am not interested in "baby as a parasitic growth within a female", but
as an independent being.
There are no "independent beings" - all beings are interdependent

Every human began as a fertilized egg.
If any other sperm fertilized that egg
or if the same sperm fertilized some other egg
our unique selves would not have resulted from that union.
Lacking high-resolution microscopes and photography
to reveal biological-level activity, in ancient times
women did not and do not need modern “reason and science”
to tell them pregnancy is a consequence of the sex act
Homo Sapiens women have been conceiving, carrying, and bearing babies
for at least 160,000 years
and have been trying to prevent pregnancy
and induce abortions for just as long.

Evidence of condom use has been found
in cave drawings in France dated between 12,000 and 15,000 years old
and in 3,000 year-old illustrations in Egypt.
Throughout history, people have variously practiced “outer course”
and used pessaries, herbs, and other objects to create barriers
to fertilization when having sex, not to mention trying many other more dangerous
and less effective means, such as drinking lead and mercury
or wearing blood-soaked amulets
in the hopes of preventing fertilization, a subsequent pregnancy,
and the birth of a child.

Any method that prevents fertilization or implantation
cannot cause an abortion.
Between 50% and 80% of fertilized eggs never successfully implant
and end in spontaneous miscarriage
before a woman even knows she is pregnant
because of insufficient hormone levels
or an non-viable egg or for some other reason.
https://www.verywellfamily.com/what-is-a-zygote-2796031
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  #7  
Unread 09-01-2019, 11:25 AM
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Re: Natal chart & conception chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgotten Warrior View Post

And that's where the uncertainty comes from,
a birth can't be predicted...
That's dependent on the skill level of the individual astrologer
i.e.
keep in mind that
ours is an amateur online astrological learning forum
which uses the method of allowing anyone to comment
irrespective of skill level and/or experience
also
prenatal Epoch is a traditional method
so modernist astrologers won't have any familiarity with the use of it
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Unread 09-01-2019, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
That's dependent on the skill level of the individual astrologer
i.e.
keep in mind that
ours is an amateur online astrological learning forum
which uses the method of allowing anyone to comment
irrespective of skill level and/or experience
also
prenatal Epoch is a traditional method
so modernist astrologers won't have any familiarity with the use of it
Thank you for clarifying it for me,it helped a lot.
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  #9  
Unread 09-01-2019, 01:31 PM
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Re: Natal chart & conception chart

Hey JUP. What's up with Doc Farr? Haen't seen hide nor hair for a while....
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  #10  
Unread 09-01-2019, 01:58 PM
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Re: Natal chart & conception chart

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post


Hey JUP. What's up with Doc Farr?
Haen't seen hide nor hair for a while....

Maybe send a pm
I just viewed dr. farrs page and last activity was 01-25-2019 03:04 AM
seven months ago
he may have been checking for pms because last post was July 2018
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...68&postcount=3
another option is to send him an email
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  #11  
Unread 09-01-2019, 02:07 PM
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Re: Natal chart & conception chart

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Originally Posted by Forgotten Warrior View Post


Thank you for clarifying it for me,it helped a lot.

It's a long shot - if you have your mothers natal
with a reliable time of birth for it
then use that in sync with prenatal epoch
to zone in on likely reliable Epoch chart
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Unread 09-01-2019, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
It's a long shot - if you have your mothers natal
with a reliable time of birth for it
then use that in sync with prenatal epoch
to zone in on likely reliable Epoch chart
Yes,I do have it,but I don't know her Ascendant...
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Unread 09-01-2019, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Hey JUP. What's up with Doc Farr? Haen't seen hide nor hair for a while....
If you don't mind me asking,who's Dr. Farr?(I'm new here...)
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Unread 09-01-2019, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
I believe it was Albumashar, as reported by his assistant. He used a horary when birth data was unavailable.

Oh. Prenatal Epoch. I've experimented with it. I use the natal -- perfectly adquate.

The natal chart is set for "the moment of first breath as an independent being". I am not interested in "baby as a parasitic growth within a female", but as an independent being.
I kinda see what you mean...
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Unread 09-01-2019, 08:27 PM
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Re: Natal chart & conception chart

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Originally Posted by Forgotten Warrior View Post


Yes,I do have it,but I don't know her Ascendant...

If you have the time of birth as well as place and date
then ASSUMING A RELIABLE TIME OF BIRTH
that provides the Ascendant
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Unread 09-01-2019, 08:32 PM
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Re: Natal chart & conception chart

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Originally Posted by Forgotten Warrior View Post


If you don't mind me asking,who's Dr. Farr?(I'm new here...)

dr, farr self-styles as an ECLECTIC astrologer
having studied astrology for more than fifty years
dr. farr utilised traditional mingled with vedic
and a form of astrology he referred to as ANKARA

taught to him by adepts

if you are interested to use the search feature
it is possible to find and read over his past comments
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Unread 09-01-2019, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
If you have the time of birth as well as place and date
then ASSUMING A RELIABLE TIME OF BIRTH
that provides the Ascendant
No,I don't have her time of birth,but I guess I can put it as 12:00 PM?
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Unread 09-01-2019, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
dr, farr self-styles as an ECLECTIC astrologer
having studied astrology for more than fifty years
dr. farr utilised traditional mingled with vedic
and a form of astrology he referred to as ANKARA

taught to him by adepts

if you are interested to use the search feature
it is possible to find and read over his past comments
Thank you,I'll look into it!
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Unread 09-01-2019, 09:00 PM
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Re: Natal chart & conception chart

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Originally Posted by Forgotten Warrior View Post


No,I don't have her time of birth,but I guess I can put it as 12:00 PM?

time of birth is required for a reliable ascendant
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Unread 09-01-2019, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
time of birth is required for a reliable ascendant
I feel like she would be a Sag ascendant(Mars conjunct) or a Capricorn ascendant,she's pretty bossy(not mean).
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Unread 09-01-2019, 11:14 PM
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Re: Natal chart & conception chart

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Originally Posted by Forgotten Warrior View Post

I feel like she would be a Sag ascendant(Mars conjunct)

or a Capricorn ascendant,she's pretty bossy(not mean).
guessing is fun but unreliable

There are multiple methods of chart rectification
discussion thread is at https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...ad.php?t=51626
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  #22  
Unread 09-01-2019, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
guessing is fun but unreliable

There are multiple methods of chart rectification
discussion thread is at https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...ad.php?t=51626
Thank you so much for the link...
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  #23  
Unread 09-02-2019, 01:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgotten Warrior View Post
If you don't mind me asking,ho's Dr. Farr?(I'm new here...)
Dr Farr is a respected astrologer.
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  #24  
Unread 09-02-2019, 03:52 AM
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Smile Re: Natal chart & conception chart

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Dr Farr is a respected astrologer.

Thanks for telling me,I haven't had any idea...
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