Wondering about relational astrology

Hello Astrologers,

Lately I've been broadening my horizons into relational astrology, and alas, I am somewhat out of my depth. So I was hoping to bring this to this forum for a little help.

I've been looking at this synastry chart for a while, which has some excellent features to it (I really like the look of the close Sun-Ascendant conjunction), but the dreaded Venus-Saturn square seems rather difficult to overcome. Perhaps this is a pleasant but somewhat troubled relationship (pardon the vagaries), but I can't quite come down with a definite decision on that. So, perhaps you might see something I don't.

Posted are the natal charts of the man and woman involved (he's the Capricorn, she's the Leo), as well as the synastry chart and a composite chart as well.

Thank you so much in advance!

That Venus Saturn square looks like it might be out of orb to me. Any chance of including the degrees? Squares indicate areas of tension, but they are also potentials for action, not little doom pellets waiting to kill off your relationship. You need to be prepared to work with the rough and the smooth, otherwise the relationship just becomes some blando boring love-in that makes everyone puke.

the composite shows venus opposed to pluto so you know this is a very hot sexual connection.and this is also the problem as in relationships one hopes for a merging with love,but pluto's influence is selfish and domineering.so any strong emotional/sexual affections often cool down once the absense of love in the sex is realized.
but as a moment, it is very intense.

with the chiron/moon midpoint opposed to uranus,there is liley a very strong psychic connection.dreams and visions of each other are likely as well as reading each others emotions and thoughts.
but with chiron ,this dynamic has a tendency to be too critical and it can degenerate into passionate arguments about meaningless details.

the mars/uranus midpoint is conjunct the sun which is opposed to venus.this indicates that he is very independent and likely is up front about this.

it is not clear that your long term interrets are the same as his personally.

with the saturn /uranus midpoint conjuct the sun/pluto conjunction,this composite is all about him. he is the center of attention and is extremely self centered.the theme of this chart is conforming to his dwayus and desires.no compromises and no "we" in the relationship.

with saturn square to neptune,there are many complications and much is unknown as secrecy is strong.this can give hidden agenas i a relationship .coupled with the pluto's influenece, the overall relationship is on shaking ground.

rahu

Inconjunct, gladly. Here are the placements.

Her chart:

Sun 12 Leo
Moon 21 Taurus
Mercury 22 Cancer
Venus 28 Gemini
Mars 14 Libra
Jupiter 12 Virgo
Saturn 24 Virgo
Uranus 21 Scorpio
Neptune 20 Sagittarius R
Pluto 19 Libra
Ascendant 21 Gemini
Midheaven 24 Aquarius

His Chart:

Sun 8 Capricorn
Moon 10 Gemini
Mercury 26 Sagittarius
Venus 10 Aquarius
Mars 13 Virgo
Jupiter 10 Virgo R
Saturn 26 Virgo
Uranus 24 Scorpio
Neptune 20 Sagittarius
Pluto 21 Libra
Ascendant 9 Leo
Midheaven 4 Taurus

Let me know if you need any other information. I do agree with you about the squares, though; charts that are too fluid, presenting no challenges, can all too often lead to weak or indulgent persons or situations. Perhaps it is just the nature of the planets forming the square here, Venus and Saturn, that is setting me off a little. Even in spite of all the good features in the synastry chart, this one seems to me very inconducive to romance. Now, I know any challenging aspect can be overcome with some work, strengthening the person/relationship involved. I do believe this chart may have the wherewithal to do that.

Rahu, thank you for reading the composite chart. I'd not thought to look at midpoints. Now, I've not noticed anything of this sort in the relationship just yet, except for a possibly psychic connection (they finish each other's sentences); however, perhaps these are traits that have not manifested themselves as of yet?

Thanks both for your replies.

The Venus Saturn square is separating by 2 degrees. I think synastry aspects should be pretty tight. But assuming it's good to go, then if we look at the houses it might indicate the areas in which the tension occurs. Your Venus is in your 1st house, his Saturn is in his 2nd house. One possible interpretation of this could be that your need to please others (Venus in 1 - I have this placement and good grief, do I feel that need!) conflicts with his somewhat old-fashioned values? So while you are busy doing all the running, trying to get him to like you, he is thinking he should be the one pursuing - maybe? He's an old-fashioned type of man anyway, I'd guess given his Cap Sun and as his Saturn is in your 5th, I think that indicates you finding him rather olde worlde about romance?

I notice you've blocked out the birth times: you can't use houses without accurate birth times, and then the moon could be off by some degrees, as well. Assuming two birth times are accurate:

I would rate this relationship as so-so.

In synastry, I think the "gold standard" is:
Suns sextiled or trined
Moons conjunct, sextiled, or trined
"reverse" Mars Venus aspects, conjunct, sextiled, or trined.

Inter-aspects are helpful, as are good aspects involving Mercury (communication), Jupiter ("feels good") and the others--but you want harmonious aspects.

His Venus trines her Mars, and his moon sextiles her sun. But that's about it. So there is some attraction, but I don't see the basic ego and emotional compatibility in this relationship.

In the composite, the sun basically indicates the purpose or life-goal of the relationship. Conjunctions to the sun give an indication of its nature. We see a conjunction of the sun with Pluto, opposite Venus. This looks pretty intense, but I think these people would emotionally exhaust each other. Opposites do attract, but not necessarily in any relaxed, harmonious way. A square from Neptune can indicate unrealistic expectations, a view of the relationship that is not based in reality, or even deceitfulness.

With her Mars/Pluto square Mercury, and sun square Uranus, maybe she wants a relationship based on intense interactions, but most people would find it draining, after a while.

I note that these two people are fairly close in age, which accounts for the outer planet conjunctions.

Inconjunct, I should first clarify that I actually am the man, not the woman, in this partnership. However, you got it spot on when you said I'm the old-fashioned type: handlebar moustache, pipe smoker, tweed jackets in winter, etc. Leo Ascendant (and French ancestry) adds that Old-World panache to my social presentation, and keeps from others the occasional stolidness of my solitude. In any case, though, you say, "So while you are busy doing all the running, trying to get him to like you, he is thinking he should be the one pursuing - maybe?" I'm not quite sure I understand what you're getting at here. Perhaps you could elucidate this for me?

Secondly, and somewhat tangentially, you do touch on an issue that has given me pause for a lot of thought, and that is the arc within which two planets must be in order to be considered in aspect. As of yet, I've tended to use plus/minus five degrees, based mostly on the fact that it's easiest. However, I'm aware I might be erring. So, I ask, does this arc depend on the type of aspect, e.g., do conjunctions and oppositions have a broader orb than squares, trines, or sextiles? Does it depend on the planets involved, e.g., do the luminaries, taking up a much greater part of the heavens from our perspective than the other planets, call for a wider arc? Does it vary with the type of chart (natal, transits, synastry, solar return, etc.)?

Thanks so much for your reply.

Waybread, thanks for the warning. As of yet, it's been a lighthearted idyll, but it's good to know what's feasible down the line. I should note that I can personally vouch for the veracity of the natal information, obscuring it only for privacy's sake. The two were, indeed, born within the same year.

So it looks to you like the lightheartedness will become unsustainable intensity at some point? It's a little difficult to see from this vantage point as of yet, so I'm thinking, perhaps wrongly, that transits would be the way to determine the changes and challenges this will face. Is this unheard of, looking at the transits to a composite chart? If that's the case, then Neptune is currently squaring the composite Moon. Perhaps this is why we have rose-coloured glasses on?

Thanks so much for your reply.

Transits sort of indicate what happens to you from the outside. Progressions indicate more how you are evolving. Although, of course, there is overlap between these two, I would tend to look at progressions to see whether two people might become more compatible with the passage of time.

You can look at transits to a composite chart, but keep in mind that it is an abstraction, showing the relationship as an entity. The two individuals may feel it differently, however, depending upon how the transits affect their own planetary placements.

You raise an interesting point about orbs. As I understand it, classical astrology determines orbs on the basis of the planets involved so yes, the luminaries have a greater orb than the others. However, modern astrology tends to determine orb on the aspect involved and the nature of the contact. Thus, a trine has a greater orb than a sextile, but orbs between transiting planets and natal planets are smaller overall. However, some modern astrologers also grant the luminaries a bigger orb (I've seen allowances of up to 12 degrees). Whichever is used, obviously the closer an aspect is, the stronger it is, and also applying aspects (which are moving towards exactitude) are stronger than separating aspects (moving away from exactitude).

Waybread, without further ado then, here's a progressed composite chart. I don't have a lot of experience, though, reading progressions, so I'd ask if you see anything noteworthy here.

Inconjunct, thank you for the comment about orbs.

Pardon my terseness here, but I've not really the time to write long now. I should be back in the evening, though.

Is it really important to you that these two people "live happily ever after"?

The sun has moved off that Pluto conjunction, only to find a new and equally difficult one with Uranus. It would appear that both people enjoy novelty, change, and maybe being a bit rebellious in their lives. We have to ask, though, how that works as a solid basis for a stable relationship. Sun conjunct Mercury looks good, as it usually confers good communication. Uranus/sun opposite Venus, not so good. Venus symbolizes the love and affection in a relationship. The Pluto square suggests ongoing tension.

Moon trine sun looks good, as the moon indicates emotional compatibility; as does the moon-Venus sextile. Neptune square Saturn suggests difficulties in making the relationship work out, possibly due to other responsibilities (Saturn) and troubles in being realistic about them.

But hey, if these two people really love each other, I can only echoe Shakespeare's sonnet 116: "Let me not to the marriage of true minds admit impediments."