Schizoid

Rebel Uranian said:

Not all clinical psychology is psychiatry, because not all treatment is medicine (i.e. therapy). You should know that because your food is your medicine and your medicine is your food.

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'twas Hippocrates excellent advice to:


“Let your food be your medicine, let your medicine be your food”

Obviously that statement did NOT claim that 'food is your medicine' NOR that 'medicine is your food' BUT simply advises one to 'Let' food be one's medicine and/or 'Let' medicine be one's food. ....subtle difference there

SIMILARLY

Although

JUPITERASC said:

"Clinical psychology IS concerned with the diagnosis and treatment of mental disorders"

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Obviously, Clinical psychologists do not necessarily 'medicate' the 'mental disorders' they treat

plus individualists do have good ideas on maintenance of the self. maybe everyone can learn to become autonomous.

http://selfinexile.com/the_Real_Self.html


http://selfinexile.com/Characteristics_1.html

i also agree with the quadrants. power-relations should be variable and voluntary.

instead of having

leader-follower
teacher-student
parent-child

it should be more like friend-friend throughout
except there are certain physiological steps to breach. it would require a lateralization of the evolutonary process.
for example the idea in the matrix where you can just download a whole subject. basically if authority wasent sanctioned for a particular group.

i agree with the stance that its inetivable to overcome psuedo-individuality in current society because of culture/language/power problems. everything tries to get eaten up by mcdonaldization unless you keep it away from social function.

@gen6k - Your ideas are interesting, but they seem irrelevant in this thread.

I am far from being an authority on astrology, but I would hesitate to believe that any mental disorder, or illness could be seen in the chart. The thing is, you can have all the foundations for developing a mental disorder/illness yet never experience a trigger in life that activates them, hence there being a biological, inheritable aspect to, for example, schizophrenia, yet not every child of a schizophrenic parent will develop schizophrenia.

I believe the chart could show you personality aspects that may make one vulnerable to developing a mental disorder/illness, or it may even show certain life experiences that could lead to the development of one, but not everyone who has these experiences or personality aspects will go on to develop a disorder.

Another thing about personality disorders is that they aren't really a chemical issue at the source, it's more about "faulty wiring", for lack of a better term. I believe they are predominantly disorders of perception due to stunted or diverted emotional development. Someone with a PD is not themselves yet, and part of what therapy tries to achieve with PDs is discovery of the true self, and therefore, true function in life. I think the true self is more likely to be reflected in the chart, as that is the blueprint of the person whether they develop a PD or not.

EDIT: I have been diagnosed Borderline PD, and I have yet to see evidence of it in my chart, however, events that contributed to the development of it do seem in part reflected in the chart (absent father, distant mother, insecure attachments, emotional restriction, etc), depending on who reads it.

this is a good example:

i have this chart here. there are only a few clues to this person having disorders in the charts shape and a couple of deeply rooted types of aspects.

okay what does this person have we have to search for it now. so we see the midpoint structure of the chart and there are not many significators, but it does form a very tight flowing shape. okay so we look at the midpoints of midpoints.

this person seemingly has a paranoic personality, anxiety, and a superiority complex. but since it is mid-point it is subsconsciously rooted.

what does this person do? well he lives on a remote jungle island and hunts animals, and is at times chased by animals. he has clarity in the daylight, and seems to be actually centered for the task. underneath he is under a lot of pressure because he noticed that the animals become smarter over time. this is his subconscious being molded automatically when he wakes up.

so astrology really depends on a strong mundane-intuition. instead of having a personality disorder for example that person is a secluded monk.

were actually trying to reference a certain psychological medium from astrology when astrology would tell us different elaborate things. its true many charts have a few inactivated disorders, but its a matter of clarifying astrology. many complex subtleties also avoid definition.

i think that any definition package that cant cure something's own intrinsic emptiness shouldnt be able to define or programmatically decipher the steps of what it is.

Seasoul said:

Another thing about personality disorders is that they aren't really a chemical issue at the source, it's more about "faulty wiring", for lack of a better term. I believe they are predominantly disorders of perception due to stunted or diverted emotional development. Someone with a PD is not themselves yet, and part of what therapy tries to achieve with PDs is discovery of the true self, and therefore, true function in life. I think the true self is more likely to be reflected in the chart, as that is the blueprint of the person whether they develop a PD or not.

EDIT: I have been diagnosed Borderline PD, and I have yet to see evidence of it in my chart, however, events that contributed to the development of it do seem in part reflected in the chart (absent father, distant mother, insecure attachments, emotional restriction, etc), depending on who reads it.

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A personality disorder is a problem between a person's personality and society. If a person is not their personality, who are they? This is a philosophical problem, use this for one example: I'm perfectly fine with myself the way I am, I just wish I could be left alone and people would stop trying to attach themselves to me when I'm detached to them. Does it cause significant problems? Yes. But I perceive the problem as a problem with the world, not with myself. If I did have to change, would I really be myself? Probably not. So I find it sort of silly to define a person by what they "should" be, just because "should" is so subjective.

Rebel Uranian said:

A personality disorder is a problem between a person's personality and society. If a person is not their personality, who are they?

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Not really. You're entitled to your opinion obviously, but this is not my experience actually living with the disorder. And if it were the case you would have to say it for all mental disorder and illness, which we know is incorrect.

Your question doesn't seem relevant to me. The point is that the person's personal development, particularly emotionally, is underdeveloped. That does not make you void of a personality, it makes you a more emotionally immature, or distorted version of yourself.

This is a philosophical problem, use this for one example: I'm perfectly fine with myself the way I am, I just wish I could be left alone and people would stop trying to attach themselves to me when I'm detached to them. Does it cause significant problems? Yes. But I perceive the problem as a problem with the world, not with myself. If I did have to change, would I really be myself? Probably not. So I find it sort of silly to define a person by what they "should" be, just because "should" is so subjective.

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Your perception of the problem, if you actually have a PD, is likely to be inaccurate. It is more a problem of perception than anything else. It's not about not being able to fit in, I'm still a bit of an alien when my condition is managed, and that's cool, it's comfortable for me; I like a level of human contact yes, but I require extended periods alone. Not because I have a problem with society, because I have a need that doesn't involve them - I wouldn't call that a problem.

As for "should" - you seem to have missed my point. PD develops when development is arrested, therefore, without arrested development the individual reaches their potential (their "should be"); with appropriate non-medicative therapy, one with a PD can reach their original potential also.

Can't say I see what's silly, there's no need to twirl the words so much, most things are simpler than they appear.

On a serious note, while discussions like this can be interesting, if you suspect you have a PD you really need to be getting a proper diagnosis from a psych.

Interestingly though, Rebel Uranian, you have highlighted one of the biggest fears an individual with a PD in therapy or thinking of therapy will experience - what if I'm not myself after therapy?

Thing is, you already are yourself, what is lacking with PDs is the natural growth that didn't take place.

A "house" is still a "house" if it has no furniture, but it is a much more comfortable and richer experience to live in it when it does.

I have been at therapy. Things get increasingly complicated in multiple respects and it's sort of surreal. It's like the Trial or something. There's little I can do.

(The phone version of this site doesn't allow edits)

Also this thread is for a study not about me. If you want to make a version for BPD or participate in this then do that. PM me if you want to talk to me.

I wonder ... if we approach the problem from a different viewpont, what happens?

The answer is right before us.

Right now we all seem to be looking for "Mercury square Uranus" or something like that and make it a "tag" for schizoid disorder. What if, instead of looking to find a tag-aspect or position, we simply look to see if any planet or relationship of planets indicates the following symptoms -- "Psychology: of or pertaining to a personality disorder marked by dissociation, passivity, withdrawal, inability to form warm social relationships, and indifference to praise or criticism. (Dictionary.com) .

Example: Venus/Saturn contacts, and Mars/Neptune contacts can both cause "withdrawal". But the withdrawal is a bit different under the two influences. What then do we mean by withdrawal?

Hard aspects between Venus and Saturn, especially the opposition, often cause a severe withdrawal; they can bring fear bordering on phobia. Guilt accumulates, gloom and extreme self-criticism flower; the native finds it impossible to love himself. The opposition between the planet of "lack-fear" and the planet of "values-cooperative relationships", is equivalent to saying "this person avoids relationships and is indifferent to reward." They place no value on what is commonly valued. So, if I see a hard aspect between the two, I might look for other indicators that substantiate and strengthen the indications. If there are enough of them, and they show power in one way or another, then we surely have a case of a schizoid behavior pattern. If the accumulated symptoms are present in enough strength then the disorder must be present.

If we look for symptoms rather than specific tags we will see the personality as it is, and avoid using the rigid concepts of psychology such as "schizoid." Instead of labeling someone, perhaps we can come to understand them.

Dissociation, according to the Psychiatric Dictionary by Hinsie and Campbell, is "Segregation of any group of mental processes from the rest of the psychic apparatus; dissociation generally means a loss of the usual interrelationships between various groups of mental processes with resultant almost independent functioning of the one group that has been separated from the rest." Therefore, dissociation is roughly equivalent to a split, double or multiple personality. The same person appears at different times to be in possession of entirely different mental content, disposition and character. There are also other forms of dissociation recognized in psychiatry, as when a person separates ideas from their consonant effects; responses are not concordant with the consequences of actions or thoughts.

Here is a chart indicating severe multiple personality disorder (dissociation).
7 July 1945, 1422, Idaho Falls, Idaho -- Female

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?
btyp=w2at;rs=3&nhor=12&nho2=12

The subject has been diagnosed with multiple personality. I have seen them in action. Medication was prescribed. There are also regularly and frequently recurring bouts with anxiety attacks. The early childhood can be characterized as "horrific beyond belief". The result was very powerful repressed content; the subject did not recall the horrific events until very far along in adulthood.

Dissociation, according to the Psychiatric Dictionary by Hinsie and Campbell, is "Segregation of any group of mental processes from the rest of the psychic apparatus; dissociation generally means a loss of the usual interrelationships between various groups of mental processes with resultant almost independent functioning of the one group that has been separated from the rest." Therefore, dissociation is roughly equivalent to a split, double or multiple personality. The same person appears at different times to be in possession of entirely different mental content, disposition and character. There are also other forms of dissociation recognized in psychiatry, as when a person separates ideas from their consonant effects; responses are not concordant with the consequences of actions or thoughts.

Here is a chart indicating severe multiple personality disorder (dissociation).
7 July 1945, 1422, Idaho Falls, Idaho -- Female


The subject has been diagnosed with multiple personality. I have seen them in action. Medication was prescribed. There are also regularly and frequently recurring severe anxiety attacks. The early childhood can be characterized as "horrific beyond belief". The result was very powerful repressed content; the subject did not recall the horrific events until very far along in adulthood. Naturally, this unconscious content was definitive in her adult behavior patterns; she was controlled by dark forces within her own psyche, implanted there as a small child.

The subject was, from infancy, controlled by a coven of satanic witches who went as far as human sacrifice and child rape by multiple individuals, in which the child was made a central figure. Her story is corroborated by her siblings, who underwent similar treatment, and by the chart itself.

Interpretation can begin at the Ascendant, Libra, which is a sign capable of "being whoever you want me to be," usually stated in astrological texts as a "desire to please everyone." The lord of the Ascendant, Venus, is in the first degree of Gemini, a dual (multiple) sign which can indicate ambivalence, or multiplicity and Venus is ruler of the Ascendant, which is the "persona". Also note that the two planets defining the chart pattern (Mars and Neptune -- and the fact that it is these two planets containing the personality pattern is highly significant) are both ruled by Venus, posited in the dark 8th.....and Mars and Neptune are cuspal, 8th to 12th, and are in sesquicuadrate aspect.

The chart pattern is a wide Bundle, defined by the sesquicuadrate aspect. Therefore, study the meaning of the sesquicuadrate (as an aspect, without reference to the participant planets here) and it will illuminate the chart. The Bundle pattern frequently (not always, but more often than not) indicates some severe childhood trauma which leaves its mark on the person for a very long time...this case is particularly powerful in that regard.

Note the conjunctions of Mercury-Pluto, Sun-Saturn, and Moon-Uranus (you would be very foolish to discount Moon-Uranus because of an 8 degree orb.) The three conjunctions are tied together by rulership into a complex that feeds on itself (the rulers Mercury, Sun, Moon operate as a "vicious circle"), and the terribly afflicted Mercury rules the central Venus (Venus is "central" for the reasons set forth in the preceding paragraph.)

So very sad, Greybeard. And it looks like sometime around her 12th birthday, something very significant happened: by solar arc her Sun and Saturn contact the natal Midheaven.

Dissociation is about erecting boundaries, wouldn't you say? What I mean is that we all have different personalities, or perhaps personae is a better term, and we move fluidly between them, aware of their differences, strengths, limitations and appropriateness. It's a way to account for the difference between how I am, say, when working with a client on a project and how I am when playing with the dog, or the way I am with someone I've just met as distinct from a close friend. But when dissociative states are invoked, the boundaries between the personae become rigid, the ebb and flow is gone and the individual may not be aware of shifting between one and another.

I knew a woman who had multiple personality disorder and this seemed to be how things were for her.

It seems to me that dissociation is a defense mechanism that may be life-preserving, sometimes. It could be an appropriate way of dealing with traumatic experiences, particularly if one isn't in a safe place or condition to respond in other ways.

Yes, Peregrine, I also believe that these dissociative states are effective defenses. That's why I mentioned the Libra Ascendant and "I can be anyone you want me to be." That little girl could not defend herself any other way. She lived in a demonic world. You've hit the nail on the head as far as her life is concerned.

Seasoul:

Guaranteed, your chart shows your condition.

greybeard said:

Dissociation, according to the Psychiatric Dictionary by Hinsie and Campbell, is "Segregation of any group of mental processes from the rest of the psychic apparatus; dissociation generally means a loss of the usual interrelationships between various groups of mental processes with resultant almost independent functioning of the one group that has been separated from the rest." Therefore, dissociation is roughly equivalent to a split, double or multiple personality. The same person appears at different times to be in possession of entirely different mental content, disposition and character. There are also other forms of dissociation recognized in psychiatry, as when a person separates ideas from their consonant effects; responses are not concordant with the consequences of actions or thoughts.

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I hope I don't sound like a know-it-all, but this is dissociation. In other words, it ranges from absent-mindedness to what I've described from personal experience as "feeling like a solipsist" (intense depersonalization). Identity dissociation is one form of dissociation, but not all dissociation is identity dissociation.

Also, if you know that Seasoul's chart shows her condition, she's not the thread OP, so do you mean Borderline? BPD is a different beast entirely, but it'd take the same astro skills to find it.

It would be interesting....

I don't "read" a chart looking for labeled syndromes. I don't know the difference between BPD and chewing gum. But the symptomatic description of any condition (good or bad) is found in the chart.

Therefore a person with knowledge of psychiatry could correlate the symptoms described in a given horoscope with recognized syndromes, and could even "quantify" the degree of severity or deviation from "norms" of the condition (that is, the idiosyncratic nature of the condition).

Take a look at the chart I put up under "Accident Proneness". The symptoms described by the horoscope, including causative early conditions and likely outcomes are mirrored in the description of "proneness to accidents" in the psychiatric dictionary. The horoscope of course includes far more detail because it is the charting of the psyche of a specific individual and not simply a general description as found in the psychiatric dictionary.

This morning I discussed that chart with a friend, who has no knowledge of astrology but knows the person to whom the chart pertains, and after I described the effects of the disjunctive Saturn to her, her common sense mind immediately recognized the only plausible outcomes of such a situation.

Your accident-proneness chart was the first thing I found when I Googled "+psychiatric dictionary proneness to accidents". I kind of see a pattern but I wouldn't be able to definitively say he's accident prone (that's because of my limited experience, not the chart).

What are the only plausible outcomes of having at least 4 aspects to every planet and more than twice as much to some?

Edit: Here's my interpretation of the accident prone guy's chart.


Jupiter Rising - relies on luck, not a problem in and of itself, plus the sign (in tropical) is sanguine
Moon opp. Uranus - erratic in affected areas
Saturn has no orb aspects
Mars opp. Pluto - thinks they're invincible
Heavily Air and Fire chart