Astrology and Victimisation

... deleted

Sven, what you seem to be protesting here are low-level functioners practicing the art of astrology in their own dank little pits of despair (with no emotional resources circulating) sans generosity nor ingenuity of spirit. Clients emerge from their sessions feeling drained, "had", somewhat psychologically dominated into a hopeless feeling they didn't have when they arrived.
Heck yeah.

I call them creeps.

If we're doing our job we're giving people tools to understand their loved ones, when the iron is hot for striking, how they're not weird etc., and all the rest of it. Since we're all humans, happy, sad rich or poor we could help one another if at all possible with our given talents. Most of all, to convey the message that everything is workable.

Svencanz said:

we must understand our own core values, and we must understand that our values may differ from those of the client....

Click to expand...

and

aquarius7000 said:

...I do think we depend a little too much on astrology, without knowing clearly, what we are actually looking for in, or wanting to fish out of this deep well.....

Click to expand...

and

Otay said:

Sven, what you seem to be protesting here are low-level functioners practicing the art of astrology in their own dank little pits of despair (with no emotional resources circulating) sans generosity nor ingenuity of spirit. Clients emerge from their sessions feeling drained, "had", somewhat psychologically dominated into a hopeless feeling they didn't have when they arrived.

Click to expand...

I'd say Sven's comment above applies to every astrologer rather than any specific group - and to anyone else who "advises" others whether through their work or via family, friends and social connections.

I began to study astrology in the hope of understanding/resolving my face-to-face communication problems with others - and to validate a belief that I was "marching to a different drummer" than those around me. Damaged goods seeking a means of damage limitation - so, far from being one of the freaks referred to by Sven.

As it happens though, what astrology has actually taught me is that my core values differed from those of my society (and needed to be revised). So, I am very conscious of how those values influence my interpretation of charts - sometimes making it hard not to advise the individual to follow a path that was "right for me" but "wrong for them". But, I've never used astrology to "beat myself up" - or (I hope) anyone else.

However, as a matter of personal ethics, I tell clients what they need to hear rather than what they want to hear - which doesn't much help the face-to-face communication problems.

EJ

I think these are important questions and should always be asked. Is anyone familiar with Tracy Mark's book, where she talks about the various ego rips that an astrologer can get into: 'I know you better than you know yourself,' imposing your own beliefs on others, that kind of thing. Whtehr or not this is a culture where astrology is considered a valid science, language, or whatever else you choose to call it, I do think that astrologers can weild a lot of power, and it is a power that can be very readily misused.

I found a lot of amateurs and students of asrology - and some who were woling professionally or semi-professionally - certainly had the attitude of 'I know who you are 'really better than your own deluded understanding' in a way that virtually seemed evangelistic to me, and it is still the reason why I tend to steer clear of a lot of astrological comunity nowadays. Some of the beliefs about the way self-realised or individuated, or whatever, people should be, to be very prescriptive. I truly do think that this is because for many astrologers - no matter what they might say abou its being a tool, a language, a science - that on some level for them, it is a religion and that therefoe, certain underlying beleifs are not quesioned as much as they should be.

I do not actually believe that astrologers should just tell clients what they want to hear either, particualry if this means pandering to the kind of wishful thinking that might encourage someone to speculate with resources they do nor have, to give an example. On the other hand, I do think that engaging too heavily on a mission to 'tell it like it is' and hoist the 'Truth' on another without showing any respect for the belief system of a client can hint at a dangerous arrogance in the astrologer's own invincibility in the belief system stakes.

I do think that it is important to be careful with words and in making predictions - I do think that people can be very impressionable and not entirely free of superstitious fears about the sorcerous powers of the Astrologer. Much can be read into an innocuous comment, so that horrendous Fates, bankruptcy, terminal disease, tsunamis could be 'heard' when none were intended.

I have found that there are those people who do expect the astrologer to sonehow spirit all their problems away, without their having to make any definite steps to change things themselves.

I have talked about astrology as a science, a religion, a tool, a language.

Maybe there is another word, whether or not we believe in it, that we need to look at, particularly in relaion to the power issues I have touched upon and in relation to the fears and expectartions of the client.

Magic.

Anyone with experience of seeing the way astrology works in a culture where it is considered an an integral part of the cusotms and beliefs of the culture?

Seems there is a way to naturally give people what they need, describe a dymanic, ask them if they agree with it, and if they ask me what they "should do" I answer "you are the one to decide whether to keep on with this, it's up to you". All an astrologer has to do is describe the terrain especially in relationship dynamics. None of a read is about me or my values.
I've not yet had a challenge to that position.
So the client is never feels judged in any way. If I hold back on something I'm seeing it's out of respect to where I intuit the person is at. If someone doesn't want to "go there" who am I to say they should? Oftentimes the client themselves lead me to backtrack to the topic. All people deserve considerate handling, which is easy to do.

You can give people information they ask for, and if it is not the best situation for them currently, then give them a view to when times improve focusing on preparing to make that happen and when.
We make the mistake of saying something is good or bad without reminding them how life is a mixed bag and they are not wasting a minute. Everything leads to the next moment and the next choice. It is like we are friends talking things over and having a good time.

It is a great feeling to see at the end of a read the person feeling empowered, informed, lightened up, relieved, and cheered up about their situation even after going very deep and their situation serious. It's because nothing is good or bad or solid. That's the truth of the way things are.

There is a book by German astrologer Markus Jehle - Wenn unten nicht wie oben ist...Kreative Astrologie in der Beratung (published by Ebertin Verlag, Germany). I speak no German but I have the Czech version of it (title says ´Astrology in Counselling Practice´). Don´t know if it was translated to English, though.

He writes about how to communicate with different clients according to their ´planetary themes´ (and also how to find these themes). Such as if someone has Merucry square Neptune, Mercury in Pisces and ruler of 12th house falls into 3rd house - then there is a Mercury/Neptune theme and a counsellor should take into account that these people can hear more than it´s said, can have problems communicating clearly etc. Transits and progressions are also taken into account as they trigger planetary themes.

Another important thing is when a client has planet(s) in their 7th house, they can project qualities related to these planets to you.

There is also nice and humorous description of astrologer´s type, like Jupiter´s type focused on expanding everyone´s horizons and Uranus type encouraging everyone to break any type of routine just for the sake of change.

So it is both about communicating in a way that is individualized for each client AND be very aware that your beliefs and values may differ from theirs.

I got into Astrology as I was ever in search of answers to the spiritual experiences I had had and the longings towards such that no religion really seemed to answer. It was in 1984 while on an extended visit with my brother that I was introduced to the validity of it and the potential it possessed for answering these very questions that I started my studies in it. My brother had just done an intensive study of the craft and gave me the first demonstration I had ever seen of just how valid a science it was. [My brother has the ability to quickly absorb such studies...he has earned no less than 5 university degrees in the last 7 years...incl. ones in Chemistry, Biology, Computer Science, & English Literature.] I had gone through an intense spiritual quickening between the age of 15 and 22. I had immediate success with meditation and certain yoga techniques that were quite startling. Yet, of all the swamis and gurus I visited none said to me 'This is where you belong'...little did I know that the reason was because they 'knew' what my future did entail.
The discovery that my Saturn/Neptune conjunction bestowed a natural ability to meditate along with Pluto conj. my M.C. with a Sabian defined as "The Premature Expansion of Conciousness" finally answered to me why the immediate success with yoga. The understanding that my M.C. [The 'WHY" of my existence] combined with a Part of Fortune conjunct it was explained by the Sabian found there...'A Camel Crossing A Vast Desert' and that it is defined as Self Sufficiency in ones journey, explained why no 'Guru' accepted me into his fold [most notably Swamis Muktananda and Swami Satchitananda...both well known and undeniably very wise men.]. I was meant to achieve something via this life but it was something that would be wholly without assistance...or very little of it.
Since I've learned how to correctly and most efficiently use Sabian Symbolic Astrology I've come to the belief that it's the spiritual imprint of the horoscope that is all important. To further clarify, what I'm saying is that I have found that the bulk of Traditional astrology is merely psycho-analysis but a Sabian analysis is to understand ones spiritual or karmic obligation here in the present incarnation. Now of course such terms as re-incarnation and Karma are upsetting to members of various religions/faiths...but I find that those people never come to me for advice anyways...or if such topics arise when I am in discussion with such people I avoid getting into the subject of astrology as that would be in violation of their own self will, self determination and their faith. Yet, I have over the years given advice to folk that lost their faith in some sect and am pleased to report it did seem to be what they needed to hear.
I've used this following analogy before.
It's as if I'm a Top-Sargeant out in the field of battle and a client is holed up in a fox-hole or trench....the Sabian Analysis is the 'Battle Mission' and the Traditional Astrology psych-analysis is that soldiers personal life-hang ups-insecurities etc. Well, in such a situation, in reality, said Sargeant would address that soldier thusly. "I don't care what your personal problems are soldier you have a mission to perform...a duty...now get out of that trench and charge!"
To me there can be no other approach to the utilization of this science/craft...yeah, it's 'Tough Love' if you want to call it such...maybe a bit insensitive.
And, yes, my analogy is overly simplistic in that Trad. Astrology cannot and should not be dismissed so readily and easily...and not to overlook the benefits of Trad. Astrology...the indications it provides do point to the special tools-proclivities-talents they may possess to complete their 'mission'...to use an analogy of a previous astrologers posting, 'The style of their martial art'.
As my by-line says; "You are a Divine Expression of the Universe"...I truly mean it...and that is something to be told to every client...should be told...and should be remembered by each of you that employs this science, this craft. May God Bless and guide each and every one of you.

[and I'm going to rate this thread 5 stars...it just may be the most important... pertinent topic here at this forum...]

Yennefer said:

He writes about how to communicate with different clients according to their ´planetary themes´ (and also how to find these themes). Such as if someone has Merucry square Neptune, Mercury in Pisces and ruler of 12th house falls into 3rd house - then there is a Mercury/Neptune theme and a counsellor should take into account that these people can hear more than it´s said, can have problems communicating clearly etc. Transits and progressions are also taken into account as they trigger planetary themes.

Click to expand...

I completely agree. I have Mercury square Neptune, and this one astrologer interpreted my chart in the most horrible way. They said it was terrible and as if every aspect of my life would be hopeless. I was pretty upset about it and made a thread, I'm glad other astrologers helped my perspective about it. It's still in my thoughts though, I felt as if my chart was attacked and even a negative interpretation of it messes with the energy somehow. I can't explain it, but it's almost like a curse, which could explain why many people keep their charts private.

Skillcoil said:

I can't explain it.

Click to expand...

You don´t have to. I can´t explain it as well but with my Mercury in Pisces square Neptune I know what you mean!

Any astrologer, who can't see the positive out of the negative aspects, and makes the client or the person who's chart is being read FEEL bad, paranoid, worried, instead of being able to provide insight, is a truly MEDIOCRE astrologer, and not just that a truly crippled emotionally, illiterate person, its not even about how much you read or any type of knowledge or ancient textbooks, if the astrologer can't enlight the client to gain deeper insight of themselves by using astrology as a tool, and after all Natal charts are natal promises nothing in this life is written on stone, And I think everyone @ the very end has the choice to use those energies on their chart in a positive or negative way... We see charts of people that you would think their lives would be terrible turn out okay and people with apparently good charts have their lives turn out to be a mess.. @ the end of it all we all have choices in the way we decide to deal with things, I dont believe or think that even the most skilled astrologer can tell you how a person's life will turn out to be, noone is Omnipotent, and if anyone feels that way they are truly nuts... and they aren't apt to interpret noneone's chart..

Olivia said:

Something a tutor of mine once said, and I think it bears repeating:

We need not be “creative”, still less do we indulge in
associative thinking running a stream of consciousness out of
our liquid lips hoping to say something “right”. We do not
“channel”. As astrologers we read the horoscope. We only
read the horoscope. There is no need to “interpret” the
horoscope. There is nothing we can add to it. Our personal
contribution can only get in the way. There is no way we can
understand the client. We have not lived his/her life.

That's about the it, really.

Click to expand...

Olivia, generally I agree with you or see a thread of reason to what writings of yours I run across.
I don't agree with where I think you're going with this.
I wish to 're-post' a contribution of mine to a thread on utilizing meditation to interpret natal horoscopes...it is from the actastrology.com forum...and is as follows: [thanks ptv]

" Namaste once again Gentlemen.
I've followed these posts as well as I can and find your study of the principle/theories of meditation far more studied than I have allowed myself to delve into.
I was graced last year by being accepted as a chela of the Sadhan order of yoga under Sri Prabhu Ram Lal whose father is said to have been an astrologer...so interesting how life seems to procede along a determinate path if we give in to our "true nature'.
What I would like to add in this post is something I found in the book "Kabbalistic Astrology" by Rabbi Joel C. Dobin.
Now it's been pointed out to me that the book is flawed in some of the Rabbis' astrological calculations [He was obviously not working with a computer generated ephemeris at the time of his writings [the 1970s'] and the Rabbi admitted to me some years ago, when I was in correspondence with him, that Astrology was only a minor study of his when He was a young man. Yet he is obviously well qualified in Kabbalistic interpretation [after all he is a Rabbi...{and I come from a Roman Catholic/Quaker mixed marriage...although both of my folks became something of Theosophists...thus not being of Hebrew upbringing} and considering the Rabbis education, i.e. a graduate of Princeton and the Hebrew Union College/Jewish institute of Religion, I will assume that the Dr. Dobin knows his material].
On page 114 the Rabbi comments on the Book of Isaiah 47:13.
"Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the 'astrologers, the 'star gazers' the 'monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from the things that shall come upon thee."
"...In his poetic polemic, Isaiah identifies two different types of astrologers. There are the 'regular astrolgers [HBRY SMYMf] and the 'star gazers' [XZYMf BKKBYMf]. Once again, the English translations do not begin to transmit the true meanings of the Hebrew terms. The term used for 'astrologer' in Hebrew translates literally as 'divider of the Heavens'. The astrologer divides the Heavens into constellations and then interprets the horoscope so derived according to known priciples. This term would apply to modern astrologers as well.
On the other hand, the Hebrew term translated as 'star gazer' really means 'those who have prophetic visions from the stars'. This would imply the type of person who, after casting a horoscope, uses it as a type of mandalla; by concentrating on this picture of the Heavens relating to one specific person in a meditative disciplined way, the astrologer is aided in some psychic manner to understand the native, his personality, and needs, and future. In the light of later Jewish tradition-which states that not only every person, but every animal and plant has its' ruling planet-this second definition of astrologer-type makes sense. I can only think of todays' varied astrological disciplines, among which are those striving to define and refine the horoscope, its' houses, and planetary angles [the 'scientific' astrologies]; and those seeking to define and refine the psychic and karmic vectors of horoscope interpretation [the 'esoteric' astrologies]. It may very well be that we have reflected in the Book of Isaiah, more than 2500 years ago, an already well defined dichotomy between the two astrological disciplines, which we would call today the 'scientific' and the 'esoteric' schools of Astrology!"

...the point of my post here is that there is evidence to support Michaels' belief in astrological meditative practice in other schools of spirituality aside from those already mentioned...and considering the great number of astrologers that we are communicating with, in this forum, of Judean/Christian backgroud/belief this should be of great interest to them along with evryone else. "

[...the 'Michael', referred to above is Michael Erlewine the Astrologer and founder of Matrix astrological software and Actastrology.com ACT stands for Astrological Conferences on Technique. It's a wonderful forum site that is more lecturative than conversational in that different Astrologers from different schools of Astrology come together to share and explore other techniques. Michael is a student of Tibetan Astrology...having studied there in Tibet many years ago...fascinating man...self made...pretty much self educated.]

...so what I'm getting at, Olivia, and everyone else...is that getting to the 'Gestalt' of the natal chart...the Gestalt...that 'ideal form and function' that is literally described in the data ...has to be discerned by one who is 'sensitive and interpretive'...I think it helps
to be..to have a touch of...the poet and the musician for this craft.

...Afterthought: I mean, this is 'The Bible'...'The Torah', telling us how to be Astrologers...is it not?

Olivia said:

Well, this rabbi disagrees with Rabbi Dobin, all due respect to him, if he suggested interpreting the horoscope instead of reading it.

The period of the nevi'im, or prophets, ended with the Babylonian Captivity. As you probably also know, a navi was a spokesperson for God, whilst a prophet (pre-speaker) is a Greek term for one who foresees the future. Foreseeing the future was not the job of the Jewish prophets, though those who had things to say that were considered to be of use to future generations were included in the Nevi'im, which is one section of the Jewish Tanach, or Bible. The others being the Torah (God's guidance), and the Ketuvim (writings).

The nevi'im did have to go to school to learn how to be nevi'im. And it seems likely in the extreme that astrology was one of the subjects they were taught, given that on some levels the bible is the Big Book of Jewish Astrology. But that wasn't all they studied, and much of that wisdom is lost to us now. There are no more prophets, at least not in Judaism.

Here's the deal: What you see in the stars is what God wrote. You cannot possibly improve upon that. Therefore, become very very proficient at reading, and 'do not add or subtract so much as a letter'. Because there is nothing you can add that has any meaning.

Click to expand...

Olivia, read it again. The Rabbi is stating there are two schools of astrology...in your case you belong in the first school...i.e. scientific astrology...r.e. 'A divider of the Heavens." {To me that's like calling yourself an 'artist' if you use one of those "Paint by Numbers" canvases...sorry, that person might get way with calling themselves a 'painter'...but they darn sure ain't no 'Artist'
...by that same reasoning then it can't even be stated/spoken [The true Tao cannot be spoken as then it would not be the Tao]...Sorry...No Sale here...[It's Isaiah that said it...Rabbi Dobin is merely passing it on to us...]
The reality of the Univers is that you can't divide it like that...If someone has a Saturn Venus opposition with a 'T' square to Uranus in very strong aspect ...I wouldn't read them the textbook description of that and then tell the client about how it is such a 'Strong Aspect' ...one would have to look at any other aspects that mitigate it...and there may be Sabian influences that mitigate it...an Astrologer that didn't utilize Sabian knowledge or understand that other astrological influences then actually change the description of that 'Saturn/Venus/Uranus influence...Yes they do...the Universe is not digital...it's analog. A Sabian Symbol does not broadcast it's symbolic energy at max level from 00* 00' 00.OOoooooo.....ooo1 to 30* 00' 00" and then instantly become the next symbol at the change of degrees...these energies , symbolically represented, morph one to the next...whether it's directly or retrograde....the symbols blend, Olivia...it's not like changing channels on a T.V. set or going from one page to the next. The aspects blend too...same thing. That's like delivering a load of lumber and then telling the client "There's your new home that you ordered." That would've saved me a load of work when I was younger
The same thing with a person...they are a blend of these energies...you've got to give them the 'Portrait'...not the instructions on how to paint one for themselves 'by the numbers'.
When you're dealing with a person...that person is a 'blend'

Also as the passage from Isaiah that the Rabbi is quoting is about listening to counselors. A King...a Ruler or man of influence would seek or employ a counselor as to decide on how to proceed regarding the future. Isaiah is telling those Kings and such to utilize Astrology.
If I were a King and didn't know how to use astrology I would hire one...employ one and would ask for advice. If the astrologer just states a list of aspects...what good is that going to do me?
I want his 'counsel' [keyword here is 'Counsel']...as in 'To Advise'.
I was called out on the carpet a year ago at skyscript for demonstrating the technique I've been also demonstrating here at this forum, i.e. how to analyze the retrograde activites of planets through Sabian astrology.
There were a number of Astrologers there that said unless I predicted something with the data I presented and technique of using it that I wasn't telling them a thing of any use. That is what we're talking about here in thisthread. I saying it's the same thing when doing natal analysis. Not just giving the client a list of aspects but a Horoscope...the Greek word Skopos means 'Watch'...which in turn means to observe in anticipation of. What you are saying Olivia, is not to watch but see.
It's like describing the attack on Pearl Harbor as "A fleet of aircraft from the nearby orient is this morning delivering a small cargo of various products made of different metals and organic and inorganic compounds to the Americans at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii."
...

I am not an astrologer. I didn´t get far with that "watching".

For me P is talking about intuition but intuition comes from experience. so you have to observe and do the maths on it. you can write it down or not. I do not believe in god or karma.

To speak from a client position I see astrologers as mostly ordinary people, in the worst case with an esoteric spleen. best astrologers and advisers are people who do not overpower you with their own `oh so deep` insight.Mostly it seems to me that they do not know what they are actually talking about, or as if they are talking to themselves taking it naturally that I would listen to them patiently. imo the average of astrologers are like that, wether conscious or aware.

Olivia said:

And you assume that being able to read a chart, to read what God wrote in the heavens, is a mere matter of reciting interpretations from an astrological cookbook? You assume that you can better what God wrote?

You're entitled to your opinion, but you miss my point entirely.

Click to expand...

No, I said that's what you've suggested.
I said you have to take all the aspects and assemble them in a complete package. You don't just give them a list of assets and debilities.
You have to do a treatise on what the blend of all the components are and the treatise has to be of a positive nature.
The topic here is about victimizing client s by giving them a negative impression of themselves. One should never give a client a negative impression of them selves.
Some astrologers say that Saturn is a malefic planet or Mars, for example. Truth is, there are no malefic Planets. Some Astrologers say that an opposition is a clash...two thing head butting one another...and they will present it that way to a client and the client will get a negative impression. Truth is, it's about bipolar energies trying to integrate...and presented in that manner the client goes away with the impression he's being challenged by this and to learn and successfully integrate those bipolar energies he/she will be rewarded with the results of doing so.

I look up at the sky at night and I see stars. You're saying you see words and letters. I obviously need to go to the man who prescribed or made your eyeglasses. Or are you saying that there is a book on astrology that was written by God. The Old Testament ...as the Rabbi demonstrated and you just stated, is the book on Astrology and the Creators explanation . You also said

there is no need to “interpret” the horoscope. Everybody is interpretating to some degree...no two analyses will ever be word for word the same....If you say that isn't so... then would you be so kind as to find a copy of what God said about, what I and some others call, the Arabic Parts or Lots as there are a lot of different opinions on how to use them and what to call some of them and what their influence is. The Rabbi Dobin said that the Book of Isaiah says there are two kinds of people that utilize what they see in the sky...Astrologers, identified as "Dividers of the Heavens" and "Star Gazers"...which the Rabbi said implies those that meditate on a cast Horoscope and have a prophetic vision of what it means. Now He didn't say 'Prophecy' but rather "Prophetic Visions". Prophetic here being an 'adjective' not a noun. Prophetic is interpreted as: Websters New Collegiate Dictionary." Prophetic. adj. Of or pertaining to a Prophet or prophecy; interpretive..."
I have had prophetic visions [...and Dreams...] on occasions, some about a horoscope that I was studying and some that are not the result of meditating on astrological matters but arising of themselves of events of the future that proved to be true or in allegorical fashion that I interpreted and proved true to my interpretation...in fact I haven't missed. I don't claim to be a 'Prophet' though...but I claim to be an Astrologer that has had "prophetic visions".


Dec. 5, 1:35 AM. Afterthought: As you said

"There are no more prophets, at least not in Judaism."
That's a bummer for you Jews...but I'm not Jewish and neither is the majority of members here at this forum. Also, I would bet that the majority of the membership here is Christian and that they believe in the validity of Isaiah. I would also be willing to bet that there are, at the very least, a few Hindus here [my apologies to those of you that are of the Sanatan Dharm that are offended by my use of the British appellation.] that also believe in what Isaiah said or will agree with it if it is made known to them and a few Buddhists, some Moslems, some Sufis...etc. none of who have been told they can't be prophets....not by God or any man, for that matter.
In fact there is an unbroken legacy of prophets and seers in India. [Healers.... trans-mutaters of matter, too...some can levitate or walk on water, die and come back to life, and even teleport...all sorts of reports of observations of and verifications of these abilities, ] My guru is one and so is the Guru of my good friend and fellow yogi, Suryakant.
So, then what you are saying is only for any Jewish ears here at the forum... I got no problem with that...like I said: "I don't like where I think you are going with this..."

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

positive said:

I am not an astrologer. I didn´t get far with that "watching".

For me P is talking about intuition but intuition comes from experience. so you have to observe and do the maths on it. you can write it down or not. I do not believe in god or karma.

To speak from a client position I see astrologers as mostly ordinary people, in the worst case with an esoteric spleen. best astrologers and advisers are people who do not overpower you with their own `oh so deep` insight.Mostly it seems to me that they do not know what they are actually talking about, or as if they are talking to themselves taking it naturally that I would listen to them patiently. imo the average of astrologers are like that, wether conscious or aware.

Click to expand...

...Is the Fishing Season open? "Many fish bite if you got good bait. Here's a little tip that I'd like to relate..."

Otay said:

Sven, what you seem to be protesting here are low-level functioners practicing the art of astrology in their own dank little pits of despair (with no emotional resources circulating) sans generosity nor ingenuity of spirit. Clients emerge from their sessions feeling drained, "had", somewhat psychologically dominated into a hopeless feeling they didn't have when they arrived.
Heck yeah.

I call them creeps.

Click to expand...

This sort of astrologer is reprehensible and one must be careful about who one consults. Personal references and research into the qualifications of an astrologer you are paying is a must....There are many charlatans, those with their own huge agendas, on a power trip and can be those with just enough knowledge to be dangerous and with no understanding, wisdom or compassion. Unlike a normal consultant such as a doctor there is very little in place that can disbar a disreputable astrologer as it is not mainstream science..... yet......there are no regulatory bodies in many places and anyone can set themselves up in this way.....

A good astrologer always offers hope along with pointing out we have to a large extent free will and that problems are to be worked on and turned into positives as far as is possible. That is why we are here.

As an astrologer I ask the client what issues they are concerned about. Seeing someone in a one or two hour consultation does not give us real insight into their background, circumstances, soul evolution or karmic issues generally. This takes great knowledge of a person and cant be achieved in a one or two hour reading. I especially avoid any Saturn challenging aspects as that is their greatest vulnerability and unless they bring up a painful issue, leave it alone.

Remember that most people are living everyday lives with everyday concerns and we need to keep it all real. I have had to learn that lesson. No one welcomes the dark journey of Pluto or the hard lessons of Saturn and just want some guidance.

Olivia said:

And you assume that being able to read a chart, to read what God wrote in the heavens, is a mere matter of reciting interpretations from an astrological cookbook? You assume that you can better what God wrote?

You're entitled to your opinion, but you miss my point entirely.

Click to expand...

Any good astrologer will not just consult or recite from any astrological cookbook and referred internet site links.... no names....and if they do so, they are not worthy of the name..

Reading a chart is a unique and personal experience which needs feedback from a querent, some knowledge of that person's circumstances and background and intuition plays a big part. Computerised read outs are not worth the megabytes they are written on and can only give a very general analysis, for instance.. Nothing can replace a real live human being with matters such as these who can synthesise and meld all the components and whose expertise has been a result of many years of practise and
learning. That you can get different analyses from different persons on the one question reveals this.