Serial killers

astromony said:

My interest in the subject of serial killers, mass murderers like Hitler and anyone who falls into the category of harming other living beings intentionally lies in the question of fate versus free will.

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You may be interested in reading this article about astrologer Robert ZOLLER's prediction of the terrorist attack on September 11, 2001 ...

http://new-library.com/zoller/features/

I wish I understood & could interpret astrology half as well as he does

Perhaps free will is a matter of how you choose to experience life. Like choosing not to be the victim all your life. Or making better decisions in your life. Or like me try and make a decision .

Maybe you choose your experience of the journey like you said Picnic.

Shining Ray

Shining Ray said:

I do believe we are meant to die at a certain time. But if you commit suicide you are taking free will into your own hands, deciding to end your own life.

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Or perhaps THAT is the indiviual's time to go
& they are merely fulfilling their destiny ?

Shining Ray said:

Perhaps free will is a matter of how you choose to experience life.

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It is a very complex subject
One thing you should take in to mind is how much
our preconditioning is affected by our past experiences.
I believe that the descisions we make today
are a result of what we have been through so far.
If it were possible to go back & change events,
we would gain a different perspective which would result
in our making different descisions &/or choices today.

I believe our past experiences result in out instinctive reactions today.
Through understanding of past experiences, we can
make a conscious descision to take an alternative path.
But that is hard, as you have to acknowledge what
your instinctive reaction is & THEN chose to override it.

Many other factors come into play when a descision is made ...
from how well you are feeling that day, to confidence level, etc.

If we look at serial killer Ted BUNDY, he expressed the belief that his murders were the result of a pornagraphic obsession that started in his childhood.
(The BTK murderer also had a pornagraphic obsession
though I don't know whether he has stated its source.)
If we could go back & remove those pornagraphic magazines from his childhood
... would he then have developed into another type of individual ?

Or if it was BUNDY's fate to be a serial killer,
then perhaps another later life event
may have triggered his murderous spree anyway ?

astromony said:

. I may have gone too far astray from the topic here but my point is that we don't know what karma is being worked through by individuals and nations on this planet. That's the mystery of it. .

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Yes you are exactly right. We have no idea what karmic goals are being worked on at any given time by an individual, group or country. For example soul mates may agree before incarnation to work on relationship issues they have been struggling with for many lifetimes. One will chose to come back as the abuser, the other the victim. They most likely will have switched roles over various lifetimes to work on karmic goals. And yes that is the purpose of incarnating, for the soul to evolve.

Suicide

From everything I have read, suicide is a karmic no no. That is never a karmic goal. The reason for this prohibition is that there are many souls waiting to come to Earth, it is tough but popular soul school. (Earth is said to produce some of the toughest, strongest souls in the solar system and beyond.) Suicide is considered a waste of the incarnation and a disruption of the soul plan. It results in a strong karmic debt that will take many lifetimes to overcome. Oh there is one exception to this rule and that is the case of someone who is terminally ill and faces a very painful end. There is no karmic consequences for this.

And yes Shining Ray brings up another excellent point on why it is bad to harm yourself, it interferes with all the other soul life plans connected to you. You interfere with everyone else's karmic goals, not just your own.

picnic said:

Or perhaps THAT is the indiviual's time to go
& they are merely fulfilling their destiny ?
t is a very complex subject
If we look at serial killer Ted BUNDY, he expressed the belief that his murders were the result of a pornagraphic obsession that started in his childhood.
(The BTK murderer also had a pornagraphic obsession
though I don't know whether he has stated its source.)
If we could go back & remove those pornagraphic magazines from his childhood
... would he then have developed into another type of individual ?
?

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One could ask why the pornographic obsession in childhood happened in the first place. Did this have past life roots? Did he come back in this life to overcome many lifetimes of harming others? And he failed once again?

Cassie,

What happens to those souls who keep failing to repay their karmic debts? Do you suppose we are given a certain number of chances before we flunk out of school?

Arian Maverick

My dear, we have all eternity.

(Theoretically that is. In practice we each take about 1400-2000 lives to reach our Earth incarnation goals. Then we ascend to a higher level but we still work on goals. This process continues until we go back to the Godhead. Growing, working, evolving. To perfection.)

Our spirit guides are very understanding and kind. They can get a bit pointed and stern however with those who just keep repeating bad mistakes life afer life. They may make the person scale back their lives so it is easier for them or may give them extra help. But the debt keeps piling up and it will have to be repaid. We will all pay off our karmic debts sooner or later, that is certain.

In some cases more dire consequences occur but that is rare.

Arian Maverick said:

Cassie,

What happens to those souls who keep failing to repay their karmic debts? Do you suppose we are given a certain number of chances before we flunk out of school?

Arian Maverick

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Plans and free will

My understanding is that before each incarnation we meet with our spirit guides and map out our intentions for the next life. We bring the karmic gifts and debts we want to work on. And we chose several possibilities and probabilities for each life. Like Plan A, B, C etc. The Akashic records are constantly shifting and changing as we take this path or the other.

And I have read that we have about 3 or 4 possible fated times of death. Which one we take depends upon a number of factors. But if we are not meant to go we will be sent back (the near death experiences you have read about).

I also just had an interesting discussion with a psychic/ spirtual astrologer.
Some believe that the natal chart changes in this life as we evolve as well. For example if someone is really working hard in this life and accomplishing all their goals and more, the MC then becomes the most representative part of their natal chart. So you can see why trying to do research with natal charts is like trying to hit a moving target.

And it is also like a primative neanderthal trying to understand quantum physics or how the internet works. Just cannot do it, too complex for a limited mind.

Re: Serial killers Hitler etc

I know this is all a bit macabre, but it is a legit topic of discussion I think.
One of the issues we have karmically right now is that many of the Nazi soldiers reincarnated right away, so they were born in the years just following WW II. They are now in leadership positions all over the world and one reason perhaps that we are having so much violence. Collective karma, national karma, indivudal karma. All being worked on at many levels.

I am amazed to find such a number of varied and really inspiring responses to this thread since my departure from the forum this afternoon. I think what is most exciting is hearing how much people are choosing to grapple with these subjects which most find hard to deal with like why people murder or self-murder. I must say that it makes me feel alot more in-tune with our species when i am given permission to talk about this stuff. I so agree with the learning and growing through lifetimes ideas you all have put fourth.
As i was reading the continuing thread, i began to think about the idea in Christianity of "ascension" as compared to Budhism and the ideas of karma. The Bible says Archangels will appear to gather up the faithful to heaven. As a child i was taught this and i felt that something must be missing because what do we do after we enter Paradise and marry Jesus? I guess hyper would be a good description of my youthful temperament as i saw myself quickly becoming bored in heaven, like my exploration would then cease. It would all be answered and there would be nothing left to learn. I saw the number of 144,000 who will be called mentioned in another thread and i just realized that 1+4+4=9 and this was suggested as the number of completion in "Pluto excluded..." thread.
Early Eastern astrologers believe that the north and south node in a chart points to karma and where one is on the wheel of karma. Young souls, according to what i understand have nnode in aries and it goes from there to a sort of graduation from the wheel, where nirvana is reached.
I think that the more we can fuse Eastern and Western philosophy/beliefs/traditions, all beliefs for that matter, the better for us all.
I referenced a book about suicide recently. It was a history of suicide and talked about how differently people felt about it in different ages. It was called "self-murder" all the way until the 1700's if i remember and suicides were commonly dragged through the streets tied to the back of a cart in punishment them for their actions. In Dante's Inferno suicides were sent to Hades and damned to spend eternity as "suicide trees" so certainly, historically suicide and murder were both thought of as the same thing. And families of suicides were punished by having the possesions of their dead relative denied them as any belongings were seized by the courts and not returned, so self-murder for a person of wealth was very upsetting indeed.
All this said, i am returned to the mystery and ask myself if fate can be overpowered by an individual and i have to say that to a certain extent it can be.
Also i believe that a soul connection is timeless and really cannot be missed. For example, Sylvia Brown has said that it is common to astro travel during our sleep up to three times a week, all of us whether we know it or not. I think we can check in with those we love however near or far in linear distance they may be. I have witnessed this in my lifetime. And i think the "end of time" implies alot more than just the end, like "that's all folks" kind of end. More literally translated this could mean time collapses or no longer exists or not in the ways that we know it to be. Many things could be happening at all different diminsions at once. And we have not seen the Akashic records of all who exist and know not what is right or wrong for another being in the karmic sense. It's like the idea of those who are without sin casting the first stone. But murder feels wrong. I like the "do what you will and harm none" philosophy and i do think we reap what we sow.

Astronomy:

You raise so many good points I don't know which one to respond to first!

I have studied many religions and they all have a strong prohibition against suicide. And I believe that is because it has such serious karmic consequences. It will set the soul back a great deal in terms of growth. And yes murder is wrong. The point in this lifetime is to work thru the old karma and change it. Not to hurt others, to make better choices. It may take many lifetimes however to get to that level.

LOL you will not be bored in heaven. You will be working, learning and growing there too. We are not just going to be sitting on a cloud playing the harp. We still continue to evolve. We will just have finished with Earth incarnations. Our classroom changes to something else.

I try to blend east and weastern astrology as much as I can. Both are too limited in my view and need to be unified. East is very spiritual but pessimistic, fated and dogmatic. West tend to miss the spiritual piece altogether and tends to scare people as well. And neither side uses the chart to promote soul growth. Which is the major reason we are blessed with the natal chart to begin with!

Edgar Carce said that there is no planetary energy, no sign energy that can overcome free will. Free will is more powerful than anything in the chart. I agree with this totally. If this is not true, what is the point of incarnation? If we are so fated and things are of of our control there is no learning, growing, evolving.

And an advanced soul with deal with the chart energy in a way that is very different from a younger soul. And advanced soul can surf and ride the squares and opps like riding a wave. They will see the energy as very powerful and use it to their advanatge.

Hi Cassie

There is something that I think of whenever people discuss the moral wrongness of murder. Naturally, I agree, murder is wrong. Hard to disagree, right? However, I can think of circumstances in which I might choose murder, rather than the other options available to me. My mum has said that she would murder for her children. What she means is that, in the unlikely event that she was made to either murder someone, or allow her children to die, she would probably choose murder. I always wonder about this hypothetical when people talk about murder. Is there any circumstance in which I would choose to take someone else's life, rather than allow the alternatives? I don't think I know enough to answer that one.

Howl said:

Hi Cassie

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Howl said:

There is something that I think of whenever people discuss the moral wrongness of murder. Naturally, I agree, murder is wrong. Hard to disagree, right? However, I can think of circumstances in which I might choose murder, rather than the other options available to me. My mum has said that she would murder for her children. What she means is that, in the unlikely event that she was made to either murder someone, or allow her children to die, she would probably choose murder. I always wonder about this hypothetical when people talk about murder. Is there any circumstance in which I would choose to take someone else's life, rather than allow the alternatives? I don't think I know enough to answer that one.

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Yes you raise a very good point. The spirit world looks at intent. Killing to defend yourself, or your children does not have the same karmic consequences as evil intent. The spirit world is perfectly fair and reasonable.
And everything is taken into account.

144,000

I saw the number of 144,000 who will be called mentioned in another thread and i just realized that 1+4+4=9 and this was suggested as the number of completion in "Pluto excluded..." thread.

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This is somewhat off-topic, but astromony's post reminded me of something I read in the Kryon Q&A Index:

QUESTION: Dear Kryon, what exactly are the 144,000? In the Bible, Jehovah Witnesses use the term to let us know that only 144,000 Jehovah witnesses will be saved, etc.

ANSWER: Does it make sense to you that in an earth of over 6 billion Humans, that only a fraction of those would be saved from eternal damnation? How does that play into the infinite love of God? However, If it serves those who believe it to do so, then honor their free choice. They are looking for the same divine answers that you are. However, at some point "spiritual common sense" has to also be honored for you to perhaps consider an alternate:

The number 144,000 is a metaphor for energy of spiritual ascension. It is 12 times 12,000. This, of all things, should give you the answer. Our discussions of the twelves is legendary and will not be repeated here. You will see this number in many places. It isn't a literal number of Humans or entities, or days, etc. It is instead a "pointer" to you of what certain energies are on the planet, and the sacredness of them. It is especially pertinent to the new Crystalline Grid energies, and what is taking place in this new energy.

After all this time, it's now more important than ever to understand that much of channelling and scripture is given in metaphor form. The reason should be obvious now that we are beginning to broach the interdimensionality of your essence, your matter, and your spiritual structure. You live in 4D, and the universe around you is in 12D and beyond. Anything out of 4, however, is a mystery. Time is not time, and reality is multi-layered. Past, present and future are combined, and there is no linearity. Therefore spiritual information is often given in numerical energetic code. Your DNA has the same thing, as someday you will see.

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Arian Maverick

Serial killers? Surpressed anger?
- hides Sat opp Mars -

I figure I'd be quite agressive and dominating towards people, were it not for my Moon in Cancer in 7th (can't stand the idea of other people in pain).

freedomlover said:

A couple of years ago I saw a show on TV about the validity of astrology. To test it, they gave a group of professional astrologers birthcharts of famous serial killers - Jeffrey Dahmer, Son of Sam, etc. BUT they did not put any name or personal information on it -just the charts themselves. All of the astrologers correctly identified them as "serial killer" types. Some of them even were able to identify what types of crimes each one would be likely to commit - and were correct. It was the biggest "pat-on-the-back" I'd seen astrology get on public TV.

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Odd: I always heard arguments how astrologers were unable to differentiate serial killers' charts from those of normal people.
Plus it's also odd that they actually aired it if it actually confirmed astrology.

You didn't tape it by any chance? I doubt they'll ever seriously air something like that here in Belgium.

Ps, are we taking bets on Freedomlover vs Shining Ray? SR seems to have the advantage of a violent temper, but than FL probably has tracked her down and installed a lethal device of some kind by now (and this will sooo get picked up by some government auto surveilance unit) .

Sanem,

Yes, it is odd that they were confirming astrology. That's why I made a post about it. I don't remember what channel it was on, but it was on a small nationwide cable network here in America. There is one or two that routinely carry shows about the paranormal - ghosts, psychic crime solvers, etc. It may have been one of those. There is a cable network called PAX that features alot of that - but that's the only one I can recall the name on - I don't have tv anymore. No. I didn't get a chance to tape it. It was a pretty cut and dry - let's prove or disprove it type of show. Like I said, they just handed out the charts to a group of professional astrologers and asked them what the persons these charts belonged to were likely to be like. They all nailed the personality type - and with much detail. The show let that stand for itself, and did not try to disprove it or "shoot holes" in what the astrologers were saying. I think it was an hour long show, and they had segments on other psychic/paranormal type of stuff on there, as well.

And are you trying to start something between me and Shining Ray, Sanem? You sound like a boxing referee..... AND in this corner, wearing the good ole' red, white, and blue, we have Freedomlover.... AND in the opposite corner, wearing beautiful blue-green scales, we have Shining Ray. Place your bets! (I think you're doing double-duty - playing the bookie, as well)

(I'm not mad at Shining Ray, and I hope she's not mad at me. I took it as all in good fun.)

Hey Freedomlover I thought it was a good laugh. I know you wouldn't want to blow this fish up with some kind of device. Unless you felt like a fish supper. What an evil criminal mind you have Sanem I will be keeping an eye on you.

Shining Ray

Goodness, what a thread! Now I'm in the mood for some good British fish and chips!

Early Eastern astrologers believe that the north and south node in a chart points to karma and where one is on the wheel of karma. Young souls, according to what i understand have nnode in aries and it goes from there to a sort of graduation from the wheel, where nirvana is reached.

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Cassie, this supports what we were discussing through private messages...

Arian Maverick

Ha Ha very funny Arian

I have edited my profile of Freedomlover on page 1 of this thread. The Police have managed to get her photo, and I have put it up for our protection on this forum.

Shining Ray

P.S Do you think I have too much time on my hands