Impactful people and outer planets

I was wondering how people who have personal planets aspecting generational planets have an affect on their age mates/generation (or maybe even the world in general when we consider transits of those planets)? Or how midheaven aspects involving generational planets (esp angled) would serve as a "voice" for their generation. Whenever I look at past icons' or important people's charts they always have generational planets in angled houses. Especially Pluto and Uranus. I've noticed those are the people that really speak to us, or left an impact on several people.

This also piqued my interest because I remember in high school, I was involved with this guy who was a Sagittarius sun. And if you were born after 1995 you will probably have Pluto in the same sign. It wasn't that people liked him (though many did), but he had this strange affect on people. Sure enough his Sun was conjunct most of my peers Pluto. Same goes with this other girl who shared his birthday.

Again, when someone has Pluto in an angled house especially in conjunction, opposition, or square - they have this ability to transform people, lives, etc.. in their own way, I've noticed. Or Uranus, inspires rebellion, a freedom fighter for the people, a voice of a revolution. And these people often come to the public attention when these planets in transit trine, or aspect in any way, their natal planets. Not entirely sure about Neptune as it's quite a passive planet, but I can imagine these people are glamorised, iconic in an elusive, unrealistic sense. The people who perhaps are the glorified image of their era/time, but there's a lack of honesty to them - (I keep thinking back to Kim Kardashian and Marilyn Monroe who are classic examples of this).

This doesn't necessarily have to be for everyone who has these planets dominating their chart as not everyone is famous. But perhaps these people have a significant impact on the world around them or their age mates. It really does at the end of the day, bottle down to how these people choose to live their lives, and where they choose to direct their energy thanks to free will. And it could really just be a theory lol. I'm sure Jupiter and Saturn also count for this but I wasn't sure what to say. It makes me think of teachers who really have a significant impact on their students. Maybe they have Pluto in an angled house with Jupiter or Saturn somewhere in the mix. Perhaps it aspected a particular generation, and thus "spoke to them".

It's a very interesting reflection you've made.

This thing of having the Planets conjuncting house cusps I never thought of, once you tested many cases and proceeded, it's quite impressive.

I was impressed once by seeing that my favorite writer/artist had his Jupiter squaring my Pluto by about 0,4' ! So, I guess your "impacting" friends had stars really contributing to it.

There is another interesting thing to note... Let's say you have Sun in Aquarius - you can more and less calculate the age of people that your Sun will square directly their Pluto (1930-40's)...
Using this reasoning for every planet and different generational planets you can follow, here's my Venus in those years Neptune, there goes my Uranus in those folks Pluto and so on...

This is a great opportunity to pose this/these question(s) -- what is meant by "transformation" in the "Pluto" sense? And based on the answer (I have an idea on what the answers may entail) do these plutonians truly transform the people around them? What differentiates the impact a Pluto type has on a life vs. a non- Pluto type and is this a true observation or influenced by your astrological learning?

Pluto has a relation with everything that we keep in ourselves. Still waters. That we keep hidden, cause the World decreeted that it can not exist, except hidden.

The sign and degree it is refers to the way it's hidden, to the kind of thing - and also how it will be expressed, or felt, even in a subtle way. I relate Pluto to what is said without having been said... Like the songs of Edith Piaf, or perhaps even Beethoven - both Scorpio risings.

A person that carries this energy strongly will provoke it's constant presence, the constant presence of what the instant now forbids to be.

aldebaran said:

Pluto has a relation with everything that we keep in ourselves. Still waters. That we keep hidden, cause the World decreeted that it can not exist, except hidden.

The sign and degree it is refers to the way it's hidden, to the kind of thing - and also how it will be expressed, or felt, even in a subtle way. I relate Pluto to what is said without having been said... Like the songs of Edith Piaf, or perhaps even Beethoven - both Scorpio risings.

A person that carries this energy strongly will provoke it's constant presence, the constant presence of what the instant now forbids to be.

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Based on what you say, Pluto entails insecurities and tendencies that you are too afraid to show the world, because you perceive they won't be accepted. Also, it is the sub-communications in language (spoken or in general?) Would body language fall under the rulership of Pluto? Or is Pluto the implications behind every communication? Is Pluto the lust hiding behind the cursory glance, the anxiety behind the split second hesitation, the hatred in a sharp tone of voice?

And to be even more annoying, here are some more questions. If Pluto is the unsaid behind the said or the unseen behind the seen, what is it's use as an astrological symbol? If it could indicate any possibility beyond the perceivable; how does one gain any useful information that you can without a shadow of a doubt attribute to Pluto?

What Pluto purports to signify seems to transcend astrology or maybe I have an inability to grasp the Plutonic enigma.

Yes, my own observations of real people, regardless of dogmatic concepts of what planets are supposed to mean, have shown me that pluto conjunct midheaven creates a person who becomes some kind of prominent figure in society, or some kind of voice of their generation. Pluto truly is the planet of fixed power.

* Also, it is the sub-communications in language (spoken or in general?)

Definitely, anything implicit is in the sphere of Scorpio. Anything we perceive, though we can't say we could grasp it clear - something we can trust, but we can not show a reason for it.
Pluto is a water planet, with strong relation to themes as confidence, trust, self-esteem.

* Would body language fall under the rulership of Pluto?

Difficult to answer, if it's a body language made with intention to disguise a hidden intention, like someone that wants to "frighten" someone at the same time looking friendly, for example, yes. Anything that deals with "not-at-light" stuff I believe is Scorpio matter.
But if we were to try to define body language in what it consists, I guess there are many possible theories, it's something that needs a lot of meditation.

* Or is Pluto the implications behind every communication?

It sounds a good definition to me. Perhaps the implications of anything - while they are seen by the angle of implications, and not of reality. We could compare perhaps with "act & potency" in the sense Aristotle used: what is still potency would be Scorpio, when it comes to Act - there's Mars.

* Is Pluto the lust hiding behind the cursory glance, the anxiety behind the split second hesitation, the hatred in a sharp tone of voice?

I guess so, but in the sharp tone of voice there's Mars escaping a little bit.

* And to be even more annoying, here are some more questions. If Pluto is the unsaid behind the said or the unseen behind the seen, what is it's use as an astrological symbol?

I believe it's use is because of experience - it's a common reality of our world - even being quite the opposite of reality, of Mars. There's a motto that says "What is to be has much force".

* If it could indicate any possibility beyond the perceivable; how does one gain any useful information that you can without a shadow of a doubt attribute to Pluto?

I believe anything that is useful and is beyond what you would believe is perceivable, you can, with much shadow, attribute to Pluto.


* What Pluto purports to signify seems to transcend astrology or maybe I have an inability to grasp the Plutonic enigma.

I would rather say that you could not live, not for an instant, without Pluto. That it's an essential part of your being, just like any other planet. Have you ever read the famous Hume's passage (the snooker passage) of "Human Understanding" book, the passage that shake Kant's head and urged him to write the "Critic of Pure Reason" ? Hume states that every our notion of the world is made up in experience... If we were aliens and came to this land and we saw a snooker game for the first time, we could never say what was going to happen with a ball when another one hit it. It could become a bird, who knows? We know what is going to happen because of our previous experience, and Hume closes it: everything is Habit. And because everything is Habit, there's no possibility of Metaphysics.

Now, could you live an instant without the feeling of trust? Or, to be more mysterious, without the feeling of Faith? By that inquiry, you can see that the spouse of Persephone rules the touchstone of many religions; and, according to Hume, the touchstone of the luminary Kant; religious or not, we live by habit - a shabby name for faith.

I'm a Millennial with a 2nd house angled Pluto that aspects every inner planet in my natal chart. I've been told my chart is classic Plutonian.

I always was under the impression angled Pluto's contribute to situational luck? I.e. physically being in the right place, at the right time. For example: I have the bizarre tendency to encounter celebrities. I also frequently find lost objects people dropped (wallets, jewelry, etc.).

This is a great opportunity to pose this/these question(s) -- what is meant by "transformation" in the "Pluto" sense? And based on the answer (I have an idea on what the answers may entail) do these plutonians truly transform the people around them? What differentiates the impact a Pluto type has on a life vs. a non- Pluto type and is this a true observation or influenced by your astrological learning?

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This is very interesting - I can always tell when someone is going through a rough time. I had a very difficult childhood (father passed away after a long illness, I moved around a lot) so I'm familiar with the signs of someone going through the motions just to get through the day. This has often led to me being mistaken for psychic (I am not; or at least I don't think I am). I try to be gentle with these people; show them kindness and let them know they can always talk to me if they ever need it. I might buy them a cup of coffee or a tank of gas. When someone is struggling, even the simplest act of kindness can have a tremendous impact on their well being.

We Plutonians may have a knack for uncovering what is hidden (whether physical objects or emotions) but I wouldn't say a Plutonian chart inherently destines you to be a healer who guides their peers along the right path. Plutonians are just very effective at it.

Theoretically I can read someone (i.e. via social/physical cues, not psychic read) and than offer them suggestions to help them overcome their obstacles. I can help "transform" someone caught in a rut, gently nudge someone who needs encouragement to pursue their goals. Buuuut, that isn't my place; in fact, the thought of doing that intentionally feels icky to me. However, I can totally see how someone could use said skills to be a guru-of sorts.

The people who perhaps are the glorified image of their era/time, but there's a lack of honesty to them - I keep thinking back to Kim Kardashian

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Kim's natal Mars is in the 12th house. As a fellow 12th house Mars-ian I've noticed said placement tends to have an almost funhouse mirror-effect on people's perceptions of you. In Kim's case, I think she just rolled with it. If being a privileged, fame-hungry bombshell gets her in the news, why not give the public what they want? Her persona certainly isn't honest - but in a way that's the genius of it. She never tries to be anything but your stereotypical phony Hollywood tart.

There's a lot more going on behind the scenes than she lets on; she's so far earned herself a net-worth of 150 million dollars. That'd be the Plutonian side of things - Kim's amassed herself an empire built entirely on the average American's secret, trashy desire to peer into the lives of the gauche Los Angeles-elite. She knows what people want, and delivers.

oops wrong thread

sorry

- I am excited about this with Angular Pluto and Uranus with mid point NN
maybe my delusions of grandeur will pay off

Rudhyar viewed the planets beyond Saturn as gateways to the Galactic Center in his book "The Sun is Also a Star". A Transpersonal planets, they act up upon the Personal routine in order to promote evolution with Discontinuity (Uranus), Dissolving (Neptune), and Purification (Pluto).

The idea is that we are all evolving to the point where we can rise above ego (Sun Centered Consciousness) and tap into the higher energies of Wisdom and Understanding found beyond Saturn. So the question is: are some of us in line - surrendering to becoming active agents of this process and are their indications in the birth chart? Yes and No. Just because my Pluto is in the 7th house and exactly squares my MC and Nodes does not necessarily make me an agent. For the early part of my life I found myself at odds with powers I could not effectively fight against - parental and corporate to state a couple of them. It took quite a lot of internal refinement to loosen up my ego defenses to uncover new strategies.

When Neptune transited my Sun in the 10th house, I went through a confusing time where I could no longer hang my hat on an outer identity. This is the dissolving function of Neptune but I also found myself caught up in the Glamour of L.A. at the time. This is the Personal distortion Neptune can bring.

I also have Uranus at the Descendant (though hitting from the 6th house) and can say that I've felt driven to shake things up - to rattle some cages to help others breakthrough limitations. Earlier I saw myself getting shocked - again, forcing me to develop new strategies and overcoming victimization ideas - to not take it personally.

Bottom line - just because someone is charismatic or magnetic at the personal level due to the power of the angular Transpersonal planets in play - doesn't mean one should blindly follow or see them as the annointed leader of their generation. The test is whether they are serving themselves or others. Do they empower or dis empower? Choice is always operative no matter how fated the chart may appear.

ynnest said:

Yes, my own observations of real people, regardless of dogmatic concepts of what planets are supposed to mean, have shown me that pluto conjunct midheaven creates a person who becomes some kind of prominent figure in society, or some kind of voice of their generation. Pluto truly is the planet of fixed power.

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I'm happy to read it!!! My Pluto conjuncts Midheaven in Scorpio (but from the 9th house). Well, many people are fascinated by me--and I can't say why. But I don't think I'm particularly prominent in society Let's see what happens with Pluto transiting on my ascendant, since I'm currently experiencing it.

NeverSafe said:

I was wondering how people who have personal planets aspecting generational planets have an affect on their age mates/generation (or maybe even the world in general when we consider transits of those planets)? Or how midheaven aspects involving generational planets (esp angled) would serve as a "voice" for their generation. Whenever I look at past icons' or important people's charts they always have generational planets in angled houses. Especially Pluto and Uranus. I've noticed those are the people that really speak to us, or left an impact on several people.

This also piqued my interest because I remember in high school, I was involved with this guy who was a Sagittarius sun. And if you were born after 1995 you will probably have Pluto in the same sign. It wasn't that people liked him (though many did), but he had this strange affect on people. Sure enough his Sun was conjunct most of my peers Pluto. Same goes with this other girl who shared his birthday.

Again, when someone has Pluto in an angled house especially in conjunction, opposition, or square - they have this ability to transform people, lives, etc.. in their own way, I've noticed. Or Uranus, inspires rebellion, a freedom fighter for the people, a voice of a revolution. And these people often come to the public attention when these planets in transit trine, or aspect in any way, their natal planets. Not entirely sure about Neptune as it's quite a passive planet, but I can imagine these people are glamorised, iconic in an elusive, unrealistic sense. The people who perhaps are the glorified image of their era/time, but there's a lack of honesty to them - (I keep thinking back to Kim Kardashian and Marilyn Monroe who are classic examples of this).

This doesn't necessarily have to be for everyone who has these planets dominating their chart as not everyone is famous. But perhaps these people have a significant impact on the world around them or their age mates. It really does at the end of the day, bottle down to how these people choose to live their lives, and where they choose to direct their energy thanks to free will. And it could really just be a theory lol. I'm sure Jupiter and Saturn also count for this but I wasn't sure what to say. It makes me think of teachers who really have a significant impact on their students. Maybe they have Pluto in an angled house with Jupiter or Saturn somewhere in the mix. Perhaps it aspected a particular generation, and thus "spoke to them".

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Thank you for the interesting post. A couple of things:

1) ive noticed that generational planets in angular houses can also manifest as external events/people impacting the natal person. So it can go both ways. As always, house rulership says a lot.

2) do you have some more specific examples to share? Charts? I saw the one on Kim above. It'd be nice to see more.

Sadge

sadge said:

Thank you for the interesting post. A couple of things:

1) ive noticed that generational planets in angular houses can also manifest as external events/people impacting the natal person. So it can go both ways. As always, house rulership says a lot.

2) do you have some more specific examples to share? Charts? I saw the one on Kim above. It'd be nice to see more.

Sadge

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You know I was actually looking at Che Guevara's chart when I was writing the original post, he has Uranus conjunct his ASC in ARIES. He also has Pluto on the 4th house.

Andy Warhol had Neptune in his first house!

That's all from what I can remember from the top of my head haha.

sadge said:

Nothing stated here is a true reflection or definition of Pluto. Pluto does not represent fear at all. (I would associate such insecurities more with Saturn). Pluto is fearless. Pluto destroys, regenerates, breaks it down, gets to the heart of the matter. In modern, Pluto is the ruler for Scorpio. So think of the rising Phoenix archetype.

Regarding the generational thing....it is a misconception to think that the generational planets are less important because they are "generational." Sure, on a wide scale framework it reflects a particular time or era. But key indicators in chart analysis is when one's inner planets or angles make a direct connection with the outers. Everyone's chart does not do this, just like how everyone does not have aspects to all of their inners, their Jupiter, etc. (An extreme case in point: I actually saw a chart of a young girl who had ZERO aspects to her sun, and a weak one to her moon. Her life story reflects this as well.) When aspects are made to Pluto, the energy and purpose of Pluto is linked to that planet, no differently than how a sun conjunct Jupiter will modify the sun differently than when sun conjunct Saturn. So yes, it is perceived as a generational planet, but it's contact to inner planets means it has now been made deeply personal because it shapes the expression and intensity of that inner planet.

Same thing goes in synastry, only one doesn't even need to have a prominent natal pluto in order for pluto contacts to play out in the energy exchange between people...that is, if Pluto is even a prominent connection point in the synastry to begin with..... This doesnt happen all the time. Everytime we walk out the front door, our venuses dont get hammered by someone's pluto. Just think of Jupiter or Saturn instead if that helps explain it. Pluto is not any different. Everyone has a Pluto in their charts. But not everyone is hitting one another with their Plutos in synastry. But when it does happen, even though it is a "generational" planet, the effects are still deeply personal.

An interesting dynamic in synastry, however, is how plutonians tend to find one another. It's an intensity and focus that not everyone is cut out to handle effectively.

Pluto is intense. There is very little BS about it. It wants to cut to the core. I don't find it to be an enigma at all.

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Don't you think an ever evolving transforming energy must be labeled as some kind of enigma? From my point of view pluto cuts to the bone and then uses alchemy to transcend patterns that do not serve us.

Y

sadge said:

But how is that an enigma? You just defined it. Or at least one purpose of it.

To understand any phenomena, you have to consider alternative angles, right? So let's think of the people who may have a strong Pluto that is not harmoniously integrated into their inner makeup. (Again, think of Saturn or Jupiter if it makes it easier.)

For example, if one has a strong square to Pluto, then that tension will be present in the native because of the challenge of not being able to easily or harmoniously integrate the two energies, whatever the square may be. An example might be the inherent tension in a person with his/her sun or mars square Pluto (anger problem? High blood pressure? Possible manifestations depending on the exact placements) or sun opposition Pluto (a need to control others or control one's environment -- or to be controlled -- that polarization between one's sun and the force of destruction and/or regeneration being in opposition to it).

Pluto can take many different shapes and forms in one's life, just like Neptune and Uranus. We can't try to create cookie-cutter molds for it. There are higher, more evolved manifestations of it and very low manifestations of it too. Just like all the signs and planets.

I think part of the problem here is that the discussion is talking about all of the outers as though they are the same. That would be like trying to have a discussion about all of the inners in the same generic way. Not possible. They each have a different function and effect.

For example, I think someone above mentioned how Marilyn Monroe had Neptune conjunct her ascendant. This is a good example for this point. Now it was that Neptune on her asc that made her so susceptible to receiving a certain kind of Neptunian projection onto her from everyone in her generation. But personally, that Neptune on her asc did not mean she WAS everyone's Neptune dream. Neptune, in the watery and boundary-less way that it functions, shaped how she met the world through her asc. The asc is a point where we receive energies. So look at what happens when we put something like Neptune on it. That woman was the living sex fantasy for men in her time, but inside, she suffered greatly and had all sorts of addictions. Had a different planet been placed on her asc, perhaps she could have the strength to live a life that was driven more by her own authentic vision or drive, and perhaps she may not have been so susceptible to being shaped by the Neptunian dreams of her time.

Now if we place p!uto on the asc, or Uranus, are the effects the same? No. Those planets carry tota!ly different energies and thus shape planets and points in totally different ways.

In research, sometimes the problem is not that you haven't found the answer, but how you are asking the question. We can't take a cookie cutter approach to defining the outers such as pluto. You understand the energy, and then begin the process of understanding how it is (or isn't) integrated into a chart. The impact of outers in a natal chart is still deeply personal, just like what happened to Marilyn Monroe. And they all carry totally different functions.

Sadge.

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I agree that outer planets heavily influence people in different and personal ways depending on what they touch/what aspects they make. Why i call Pluto an enigma in general is because i have Observed this energy when it makes the most intense aspects to very personal points/ planets in people and what I have found is that even though you can define that a river is deep you cant truly Grasp the true depth of it in terms of the vast and hidden resources that can be tapped into underneath even for the people wielding this energy.

Y

Hmmm. Maybe I just don't understand your question then. I can't quantify planetary energy. I don't know if there's even a point? (Just thinking out loud here....)

It's just about levels of intensity based on aspects and points. And the way it takes shape for each individual. For me, anyway. It's like trying to quantify Neptune. Is that even possible? Nevertheless, thank you for the thoughtful questions. I will continue thinking about it.

sadge said:

Thank you for the interesting post. A couple of things:

1) ive noticed that generational planets in angular houses can also manifest as external events/people impacting the natal person. So it can go both ways. As always, house rulership says a lot.

2) do you have some more specific examples to share? Charts? I saw the one on Kim above. It'd be nice to see more.

Sadge

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As to the bolded above:

I have seen that phenomenon with angular oppositions to the outer planets too.

----for example= Pluto Oppositions

Many times I have seen Pluto conjunct an angle,[ but even from the mutable house, like 6th or 12th]
and being opposed by one of the lights [or the ruler of the 4th or 10th]

and the native lost a parent at a young age or in a very tragic way.


So 1 example:
Moon in 6th opposed Pluto in 12th/conjunct Ascendant==mother died when native was a young and was an invalid for many years before that

or Sun opposed Pluto in 4th conjunct IC ====Father abandoned family or died a sudden tragic death


I have seen angular Pluto oppositions in natal charts signify loss and death and abandonment which then impact the natives future trust in relationships and love


I have seen angular Pluto oppositions to Venus/Mars/Mercury bring partners into the natives life who can be obsessive, stalkerish, and controlling.



Then again, the oppositions can be projections, as much as they can be considered other people....

sadge said:

Hmmm. Maybe I just don't understand your question then. I can't quantify planetary energy. I don't know if there's even a point? (Just thinking out loud here....)

It's just about levels of intensity based on aspects and points. And the way it takes shape for each individual. For me, anyway. It's like trying to quantify Neptune. Is that even possible? Nevertheless, thank you for the thoughtful questions. I will continue thinking about it.

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I dont think its about quantifying, i believe its about understanding the energy that we are dealing with in its purest form and then observing how it applies through different aspects. From my point of view conjunctions/ parallells to vital points like the ascendant creates an intense blend that makes it easier to discern/understand this pure form more easily.

Y