Court continuance?

KayBug

Well-known member
A person I know well has an upcoming cout date in October. He and his attorney are hoping for a continuance. My question is, will a continuance be granted?

I am asking the question for and about him so I would say he is the ascendant. Ruler of the ascendant is the moon in the 12th house. I know the 12th house is about secret things and hidden enemies but I don't know how that plays into this if it does. I believe the 10th house represents the judge and the 4th house represents the verdict of the question.

Moon is square to Jupiter and Uranus in the 10th house. Jupiter may give him the luck he needs to get it continued but Uranus usually upsets the apple cart so I don't know about this. Moon is square Mercury in the 4th but I don't see any other aspects between the moon and planets in the 4th house

Jupiter and Uranus in the 10th are both opposing the Sun and Mercury in the 4th. I am going to say that he will not get the continuance and that the judge will have some strong words for him and I also think he may end up going to jail which would be a probability with his record in relooking at the Moon in the 12th house.

Any help with this will be greatly appreciated. :smile:
 
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BobZemco

Well-known member
A person I know well has an upcoming cout date in October. He and his attorney are hoping for a continuance. My question is, will a continuance be granted?

You should really use the actual date/time/location and construct an Electional/Event Chart for those.

Legal Horary Charts are best suited for other issues you see in the Electional/Event Chart but might not be very clear. (questions about witnesses, evidence etc).

For Horary we should use a "drill-down" procedure to make sure we don't overlook anything (it's a good practice).

Since we aren't doing this for money we can sort of ignore whether the chart is radical and fit to be judged and just jump straight to the strictures/warnings/considerations (which have nothing to do with a chart being radical).

We look at the Ascendant first. It isn't in an early degree, and it is not in a late degree and the Ascendant isn't Via Combusta.

If the Ascendant were in an early degree, that would tell us the question is a little premature. It doesn't prevent us from judging the chart, because we can see what will happen eventually, but if the Ascendant was also Via Combusta, that would tell us things might change unexpectedly so we need to be very careful.

If the Ascendant were in a late degree, then that tells us it's over, and the Querent is pleading with you out of sheer desperation and wants you tell them what they want to hear. That's when you look at the 7th House for Saturn, because if Saturn is there, and you don't tell them what they want to hear, they'll get nasty with you.

The Ascendant is good here.

I am asking the question for and about him so I would say he is the ascendant.

Generally for all conflicts and competitions or adversarial actions between any two parties the 1st/7th House are used. There are some exceptions. Bankruptcy, foreclosure and child custody issues are 1st/4th, and when an individual or team is the reigning Belt, Cup, Trophy, Champion or Title Holder, they are the 4th House (not the 7th).

When you ask on behalf of someone and they have no knowledge you're asking, they are often the 1st House. That's especially true of missing persons or absent parties etc.

Ruler of the ascendant is the moon in the 12th house. I know the 12th house is about secret things and hidden enemies but I don't know how that plays into this if it does.

Houses have a lot of meanings and still more meanings from derived Houses.

It is the House of Confinement. That would include banishment, exile, admittance to a mental facility, being in hospital, in hospice, as a POW during war (check John McCain's Chart) and as a prisoner. It is also the House of Sorrow, Separation and Fear.

I believe the 10th house represents the judge

The 9th House is laws, and the rule of law and legal issues and matters, but those are carried out, enforced or executed through the second house from the 9th House, ie the 10th House. So, yes, the 10th is the Judge/Court.

The Adversary, whether it's the Plaintiff, Defendant or State (in a criminal matter) is the 7th House (again for certain specific issues they would be the 1st House and the Querent the 4th House).

Moon is square...

Before we get that far, we need to assess the strengths and weaknesses of the Significators, which are Moon, Saturn and Jupiter.

The Moon is in Gemini, which is a neutral Sign for the Moon, but the Moon is Cadent and Peregrine. It is in the Term of Saturn and the Face of the Sun.

Since the Sun is Below Horizon, this is a Night Chart and the Triplicity Ruler of Air Signs at Night is Mercury. The Moon is in a Masculine Sign in a Feminie House Above Horizon in a Night Chart and being in its 3rd Quarter is moving toward a conjunction of the Sun so it is Decreasing in Light (Waning).

Overall, the Moon is weak and not in very good shape, and that is probably very descriptive of Querent.

Saturn rules the 7th House, plus the 8th and 9th Houses. That would be the support, finances, documents and evidence of either the prosecutor in a criminal case or the other party in a civil matter.

Saturn is Exalted in Libra, in his own Term and in the Face of the Moon.

Here's where we have a problem that demonstrates why Electional/Event Charts are superior to Horary in certain instances. Saturn is Combust, but the Sun is applying.

What if at the time of the hearing Saturn is Cazimi?

That would effectively make Saturn the most powerful Planet in the Chart and completely change the interpretation.

In fact, dr. farr and I are discussing that now on another thread about conjunctions in horaries because there is an oblivious misinterpretation or mistranslation by later Astrologers of early texts and concepts related to Combustion/Under Beams.

Jupiter is in Rulership in Pisces, Angular and Retrograde.

Moon is square to Jupiter and Uranus in the 10th house. Jupiter may give him the luck he needs to get it continued but Uranus usually upsets the apple cart so I don't know about this. Moon is square Mercury in the 4th but I don't see any other aspects between the moon and planets in the 4th house

Jupiter and Uranus in the 10th are both opposing the Sun and Mercury in the 4th. I am going to say that he will not get the continuance and that the judge will have some strong words for him and I also think he may end up going to jail which would be a probability with his record in relooking at the Moon in the 12th house.

Any help with this will be greatly appreciated. :smile:

Well, we don't use the Outers in Horary because they aren't necessary and the tend to cloud the issue when the other significators are ignored.

The solution here is simple, and I'll use both approaches to the Combust Saturn.

Also, here's where knowledge in the field of law helps.

Only the Judge can grant a continuance. It is not within the power of either party to do so.

No continuance will be granted.

The Moon (Querent) is in an applying square to Jupiter (Judge) without Reception. That is a clear "no."

Saturn Combust is descriptive of the other party, ie prosecutor or Plaintiff/Defendant.

They have no power, no say in the matter.

If we take dr. farr's approach using the Ankara Tradition, then we simply ignore Saturn and use the Sun, which is in a partile square with the Ascendant. Note that the Sun rules the Querent's 3rd House which would be the Motion for Continuance, the Memorandum in Support of the Motion for Continuance and any attached affidavits.

There's no Reception between the Ascendant and Sun, and the Sun has no Dignity in the Ascendant, indicating the Querent's Motion will be denied.

At 7° Libra Saturn is in the Term of Mercury who is in opposition by Mutual Application to Jupiter without any Reception. Remember, Mercury is the Night Triplicity Ruler of Air Signs where the Moon is located.

The Part of Fortune here is no help as it is in the Term of Jupiter, disposited by Saturn and the Sun is applying to Combust and it is currently Under Beams so overall it is weak and of little benefit to the Querent. The signification is take from Sun/Moon cast out from the Ascendant and you see the Sun square Ascendant.

In adversarial questions when the Moon is a primary significator, we don't use it as a co-significator. Also, when the Moon is a primary significator or Void of Course, we don't use it to assign secondary significators (if the Moon were not a primary significator then Mercury being the last Planet aspected by the Moon would be a secondary significator for the Querent and Jupiter being the next applying aspect of the Moon would be a secondary significator for the 7th House people).

I don't see the Querent being granted his motion here.
 

KayBug

Well-known member
Sorry it's been a few days before getting back to my thread. I haven't felt well but better now.

Bob....Thank you so much for all the info. Alot there I can study on. Will keep you informed about how this turns out.
 

starlink

Well-known member
Hello you two! I have not been attending this forum for a few month now, except in answering PM's once in a while. But this horary and the very helpful step by step explanation by Bob got my attention. I am intrigued now, because Bob gave it a "no" and the reality is a "yes".

Could it be that a square between Jupiter, a benific, and the Moon can work out less problematic? Then maybe the fact that the ruler of the Moon (Merc.) and the ruler of the judge (Jupiter) will oppose one another, but in this case that could not be so negative as both planets act from Angles and both planets are equally strong in own sign. I think William Lilly somewhere mentioned that in such a case, there could still be a "yes" outcome, but that the situation wont really be satisfying eventually. Am I right here Bob?
I also noted that the lawyer, Saturn, is exalted in Libra and that the Part of fortune is in the querents 4th house. Especially in lawcases, the part of fortune seems to play an important role.

Modern astrologers would maybe have seen that the Moon will trine Neptune, the ruler of the Judge. Sometimes those outer planets do seem to work....



In the "yes or no" technique of Marc Edmund Jones, we only have to look at the 9th house (courtcase) and the opposite house, the 3rd. 9th is ruled by Saturn, 3rd by the Sun and the Sun is going to make a conjunction with Saturn, so the answer, according to Jones, would have been a "yes".

Just a different look from my side, after the fact. I must admit that I would also probably have judged this chart like Bob did. Sometimes we probably must dig a bit deeper:)

Cheers to both of you, Starlink
 

KayBug

Well-known member
I am attaching a new chart. This is an event chart for Dec. 9th, 2010, the court date, at 9:00 AM which is what time court starts, in Bolivia, NC, which is the location town of the courthouse. I had to make the time at 9 AM as we would not know exactly what time that morning the judge would hear the case.

Can we tell from this chart what the outcome of that hearing will be? Will this man go to jail, have another continuance, case be dismissed, be found guilty, be found guilty without going to jail but other punishment?

I really don't know where to go with this. I am assuming he would be the ascendant, which is ruled by Mars and in the 12th house. After that I'm really lost with this. :unsure:

Any help greatly appreciated.
 
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Aquarius358

Well-known member
Event chart 9 Dec 2010, 9am Bolivia, NC : Court case hearing.

Hi there Kaybug - 1 ruler here is Saturn, in the 9th of Court - where he logically would be at this event/hearing.

10 ruler is the judgment given to him at this event and is Mars.
You'd think that with Mars in the 12th of prison that, yes, he will go to prison and especially since Mars is disposed by Saturn. But looking further ...

I would take the Moon to represent the action and her first square is to Venus / 4 ruler outcome, then trine Saturn. It's a good aspect, not a nasty one, so this suggests he won't go to prison.

Furthermore, Saturn is very strong and well dignified in this chart - he is exalted and in his own Triplicity - something I would suggest does not indicate that he will be locked up. If his significator were in the 12th, I'd say yes, he'll go to prison but it's not. Saturn has just separated by 3deg from an application to the Ascendant - back to his 'life' - NOT to the 12th House cusp or to a planet in the 12th House.

I mentioned that Moon was first square Venus and Venus rules the final outcome (as well as the 9th of Court/law). Venus is, of course, in her Detriment being in Scorpio, but is in the 10th - not in the 12th. Also, Venus in her own Triplicity which offsets the Detriment status somewhat and being located in the 'top spot' up there in the 10th suggests a reasonably good final outcome.

Moon is also 7 ruler, Saturn's opponent here, but does not apply to Saturn and in fact is in Saturn's sign of domicile, Aquarius, as if Moon has 'gone over' to Saturn in some sort of conciliatory effort. (Since we don't know the details of the legal matters here, it would be silly to speculate about what this might ... so I won't!)

With nothing other than Mars/judgment dispositing Saturn and Mars being in the 12th, I'd say this event chart shows that your original querent won't be going to prison. It's possible that his pocket might be 'punished' a bit though - with Fortuna in the 2nd being disposed by Saturn and Jupiter, 12 ruler, in his 2nd House, in this 9am chart. As if to confirm this, Mars is exalted in Capricorn - Saturn's sign - which means the judgment exalts and he wouldn't be doing this if Saturn were going to prison I don't think.

Of course, we could do an event chart for later in the day, say 5pm - which I looked at briefly. The whole matter would be over by then - yes? If that's the case, then 1 ruler in that chart is nowhere near the 12th of prison either. ___
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
I did not respond to the continuance chart because of Dragon's Tail in the ascendant: as I have posted here on AW several times (and previously on skyscript) I follow old Gerard of Cremona's advice, that when the Tail is in the ascendant the chart (somehow) too often leads to misinterpretation. I don't know how true that stricture is (statistically)-to my knowledge no one has ever researched it-but I do know that IT SEEMS (from many charts I've looked at) to at least approach being "true": certainly enough so, at least for me, to use it as a guide as to when NOT to attempt making a horary prediction!

Regarding the newly posted chart, I agree with Aquarius358 outlook regarding the timing of the anticipated event chart: I think that setting the time for when the event will have occured and be over (say 4 or 5 pm) might give a more reliable indication of the outcome than setting a chart for just or just at the moment when, the event is anticipated to begin.
 

starlink

Well-known member
Good day Dr.Farr, yes I also saw that Dragons Tail near the Asc. and therefore almost immediately thought (like Bob) that the answer would be a "no". I had not heard about your interpretation which seems to work in this chart as well, so I will keep this in mind for future horaries. Thanks for mentioning it. Also have not heard about Gerard of Cremona. Must look that up.

Starlink
 

KayBug

Well-known member
Thank you aquarius, dr. farr and star for replying to my thread.

Attached is an event chart for the court date and place with a new time of 5 PM when the case will have been ruled on.

Specifics of the case given to me to relay:

Case is a DUI (Driving under the Influence)
8 is the legal limit of intoxication in this state. He blew a 14, almost twice the legal limit.
Person has a court appointed attorney.
Attorney never returned his calls until a couple of days before the case went to court. Attorney told him he was going to ask for a dismissal or continuance.
Continuance is suppose to be so he and the attorney can sit down and talk.
Attorney did make the statement to him that he was afraid they (Law Enforcement) had him on this one.
As I understand it from him, he has served some time over 6 years ago for a DUI.
As I understand it from him, he also has other things on his record, supposedly misdemeanors.

In this chart he would be Mercury in the 7th ruled by Mars. Judge would be Neptune in the 9th ruled by Uranus. I believe I have the people in the chart identified correctly but don't know where to go from there.

I appreciate all your help, all replies are greatly appreciated. :smile:
 
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starlink

Well-known member
Kay-bug, you said:

Judge would be Neptune in the 9th ruled by Uranus.

The lawyer is 9th house, the judge is the 10th. In this case the lawyer and the judge are both ruled by Saturn (Aquarius in horary astrology is traditionally ruled by Saturn, not Uranus). As you can see the 10th house has an intercepted sign, Pisces, in it which makes me think that there could be an assistant judge or maybe two different judges looking at this case.

The fact that judge and lawyer both are ruled by Saturn in Libra could show that these are high court lawyer and judges or well known . Saturn is exalted in Libra.

The man is signified by Mercury, ruler of the 1st house and the Moon (1st house always also has the Moon as signifier unless Moon is quisited. Mars therefore is not the man. Mercury is under the power of Saturn as it is placed in Capricorn and Mercury is practically placed in the 8th house, which is showing how worried he is. It is not a good house to be in. Mercury, on top of that, is also going to square Saturn which is even less favorable.
The Moon however, also showing the querent, will make a trine to Saturn. Now as we have both lawyer and judge ruled by Saturn, it could be that with one of them, presumably the lawyer, querent has a good rapport (Moon-Saturn trine), but with the judge a difficult nut to crack (Moon-Saturn square). It is also the latter of the two aspects.
A jailsentence I dont think he will get. Jail is Venus in this chart (12th house ruler) and Mercury just about escaped that one and so does the Moon. Both planets left their aspects to Venus.

Moon will sextile the Sun which is very fortunate of course and semi-sextiles Jupiter, the other judge, before leaving her sign. I only occasionally use minor aspects only when it involves the Moon.(Derek Appleby).

So it is possible that he will come off this trial less severely then he thought. His 4th house (end of the matter) is ruled by the Sun in his 6th. Maybe he has to do community service as punishment which he probably can thank the Jupiter ruled judge for. (Sun is ruled by Jupiter).

Let us know what happens as this one is really not an easy one.

Of course, again we have the Dragons head in the 1st house, but the Part of Fortune in the fortunate 11th. I am curious to know how this one will pan out.

Cheers, Starlink
 
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KayBug

Well-known member
star, since you brought up 2 judges this leads me to another possibility. In this county we have another Superior Court Judge, not the one that will hear this case first I don't believe, that has in the last 2 years brought about 2 other different types of court which has been sorely needed in the county. She rules over the newly created Substance Abuse Court and A Mental Issues/Illness court.

Perhpas his attorney will try to get him in her Substance Abuse Court. This judge is a tough cookie to handle, a no nonsense lady. She sets the rules, which are almost unbearable, you follow them to the letter or you serve what would have been your sentence.

Could this be a possibility?

Will keep you informed on the outcome.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Just wanted to say HI! to Starlink-you've been missed! Glad to see you back on AW and hope you will continue to bless us with your insightful postings!
 

starlink

Well-known member
Thanks dr.Farr, I know I should have come in earlier, but I am doing lots of new things and time for the Forum is limited at the moment, but I will try:).

See you around!

Starlink
 

BobZemco

Well-known member
Could it be that a square between Jupiter, a benific, and the Moon can work out less problematic?

The Moon Cadent in an applying square would unfortunate Jupiter and since Jupiter is Retrograde, he would be an Infortune. That would make Jupiter more or less a Malefic.

Then maybe the fact that the ruler of the Moon (Merc.) and the ruler of the judge (Jupiter) will oppose one another, but in this case that could not be so negative as both planets act from Angles and both planets are equally strong in own sign.

I saw that too, but the Moon actually cuts off the light from Mercury because Moon will perfect the square with Jupiter before Mercury perfects the opposition.

I think William Lilly somewhere mentioned that in such a case, there could still be a "yes" outcome, but that the situation wont really be satisfying eventually. Am I right here Bob?

Squares and oppositions with Reception are what I call "Yes, but...." It is a positive answer, but the outcome will ultimately be negative or destroy itself.

There's no Reception between Mercury/Jupiter and that wouldn't matter since Moon cuts off the light.

I also noted that the lawyer, Saturn, is exalted in Libra and that the Part of fortune is in the querents 4th house. Especially in lawcases, the part of fortune seems to play an important role.

Sun rules Querent's 3rd House which would be all court documents, evidence and filings, just as the 9th House is the prosecution's (or Plaintiff/Defendant's) evidence, motions and briefings.

Sun is in Detriment and Saturn in Exaltation, but Saturn is Combust and Sun is applying, so Defendant's Motion to Continue would be marginally stronger than the prosecution's response to it.

That's good for the Querent, but I wouldn't judge a chart based on that alone.

Maybe we should look at it more like a job horary.

"Will I keep my job?"
This chart shows a "Yes" and "Will I be fired?" is "No" because the Ascendant Ruler (Moon) aspects the 10th House Ruler (Jupiter). The type of aspect is irrelevant and so is Reception for those two specific questions.

I suppose here, we could look at as "Will the Motion be Granted?" and the answer would be "Yes" because the Ascendant Ruler aspects the 10th House Ruler. No aspect would indicate the Motion would be denied.

dr. farr said:
I did not respond to the continuance chart because of Dragon's Tail in the ascendant: as I have posted here on AW several times (and previously on skyscript) I follow old Gerard of Cremona's advice, that when the Tail is in the ascendant the chart (somehow) too often leads to misinterpretation. I don't know how true that stricture is (statistically)-to my knowledge no one has ever researched it-but I do know that IT SEEMS (from many charts I've looked at) to at least approach being "true": certainly enough so, at least for me, to use it as a guide as to when NOT to attempt making a horary prediction!

This is the 4th or 5th chart to have South Node in the Ascendant and the result was FUBAR. I don't think that is coincidence.

Kaybug said:
Case is a DUI (Driving under the Influence)

The 4th House is the event that leads to incarceration, the 8th House is the act of imprisoning and the 12th House is where the prison or prisoner is located.

Because Mercury is the general significator of transportation, and Mercury is in the 4th House and Virgo is Mutable, we can infer it was a vehicle/driving offense. A Cardinal Sign would suggest theft, since Mercury is the general significator for thieves. A Fixed Sign would imply passing bad checks, check kiting, credit card fraud or something similar related to documents.
 

starlink

Well-known member
Thanks so very much for your extensive explanations Bob. I must print this whole thread out as it is a really interesting one. My horary knowledge is a bit rusty. One should do these things on a daily basis and that is far from what I am doing these days, so I learned a lot from you. Much appreciated.

Starlink
 

BobZemco

Well-known member
Thanks so very much for your extensive explanations Bob.

Lily says to write out your judgments to the fullest. I've always done that and try to do it here (time permitting).

It reinforces your memory and you learn faster, plus you can sometimes catch minor errors and then of course if the ending is contrary, you can go back and try to see what you missed (and you learn from that too).

I went back and checked Bonatti. He's quoting Zael and says if the 1st House Ruler aspects the 10th House Ruler then that makes the 1st House Ruler stronger, if either the 1st or 10th House Ruler are Angular or Succedent (that applies to "things adversarial" like lawsuits). Again, the aspect doesn't matter in this type of Horary.

The Cadent Moon squares Jupiter posited in the 10th House. Jupiter is Angular and that would have made the Querent's position stronger and showed that he might have prevailed on the Motion.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
So, just to clarify, KayBug, this means he did not go to prison - yes?

Not intending to answer for KayBug-who is quite capable of answering this question for herself- but FYI, when you get a continuance it means the matter has not yet come up to be decided by the Court-they give the defendant a new time to come back for the Court hearing. So, no this person has not gone to jail. I notice in your (Aquarius358) delineation you repeat several times about the defendant not going to jail; your delineation I believe has proven accurate relative to the horary questions about the continuances. so as we go into the new year the defendant remains out of jail, consistent with your delineation of October 14th...
 
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