Out of sign aspects

What's your say on aspects where, due to the allowed orb, the planets are in "wrong" signs for the aspect? For example, a trine where planets are in different elements: Scorpio/Leo, for instance, instead of Scorpio/Cancer.

What about an out of sign conjunction? I read it doesn't count. But why? Sign borders are symbolic, but position of planets is real - they are standing close to each other.

So how would you approach an out of sign aspect, given that the orb is reasonable for the planets involved? Would you further shrink the orb? What about interpreting? Easy flow of energy that is happening with ordinary trines is probably not so easy when the next sign is involved. Conjunction must also be different when energies of different signs are involved.

iwonder, i would treat an out of sign aspect almost the same way as same sign/triplicity aspect. the interpretation would be different, the planets are in good relationship but in the incompatible elements and that adds complexity to the interpretation, i would suspect that such complexity manifests in some psychologically unique/unusual behavior, but i would not ignore it. i agree with you that the planets are real bodies; they emit certain energy and they interact with each other when they are within the orb, especailly if it is conjunction. I would not change the orb much. But if the Sun for e.g is at 23* Cancer and the Moon at 2* Leo, the conjunction would not be as intense as the closer one. I am talking about natal astrology, in horary astrology that would be different, out of sign aspect would not count.

What about an out of sign conjunction? I read it doesn't count.

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Never heard of that Iwonder. It most certainly does count. The difference is just the background, the elements these planets are in. This can change their energy according to that element (like you also mentioned). If a trine would have been between Water and Water, now you see a trine between Water and Fire or Water and Air. This will influence the "easy flow" of the trine of course, because Water and Air are not really compatible. Water and Fire are so-so together, can becone a bit too emotional maybe.

I agree there are lots of things to take into consideration, the signs influence how the planet reacts, the house is where and the aspects can be either good or challenging.

For example, my sun and moon are wide orb conjuction Aries moon 28' and taurus sun 8'30" basically my parents did get on, but mother was quite fiery (aries, soon to flare up and down) and dad was placid laid back but did enjoy pressing a few buttons (sun conj uranus in pisces).

Now moon is also opposed to neptune in scorpio again different element (not libra) and aries and scorpio are quincunxed signs, still means emotional disillusionment, plus houses involved of course. Maybe when I try to be sympathetic,(Neptune) and spiritual and daydreaming even, my emotions say snap out of it, get over it, move on. empathising espec when younger I found very hard, cos of 4fire, 4earth and only 1water ie; neptune. Also there are few personal things that I could never quite understand about mother and her character or behaviour........ but that's another story. Both sun signs are quincunxed anyway.

So, I digress, when oppositions like mine, and out of element, back to basics and use keywords for each planet, then see which other houses rule, in my example moon ruling 6th house

So, even a trine would be a quincunx cos it's out of element. Then on the other hand a square, could turn into a trine which would obviously be much easier to handle.

I would treat out-of-sign aspects the same way I would treat in-sign aspects. Be particular about how wide an orb you allow; and recognize that there will be harmony, but the modality and means of operation of the planets will be different than expected. For example, with a Taurus/Capricorn trine, both planets understand the material world. With a Taurus/Sagittarius trine, you have to account for the Sag planet being much more invested in initiative and activity (fire).

iwonder said:

....how would you approach an out of sign aspect, given that the orb is reasonable for the planets involved?...

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Hi all,

I agree with everything that has so far been said........and recommend Bil Tierney's book "Dynamics of Aspect Analysis"......whose 9 page chapter on dissociate aspects (plus additional paragraphs on specific dissociate configurations) cannot be adequately explained within a copyright limitation of 100 words.

However, my own approach to interpretation is to picture/imagine each planet as a person sharing a harmonious/inharmonious relationship which reflects the nature of the aspect involved.

For example, I have Uranus at 29+ Gemini/9th opposing Jupiter at 0+ Capricorn/4th.........(a dissociate aspect with an orb of only 1.2 degrees)........So, Uranus likes to shock others with what he says whilst Jupiter strives to always be a respected pillar of the community......a personality clash which is then compounded by a relationship (opposition) between two individual from "opposite sides of the track".

But, if Jupiter was in outspoken Sagittarius, he would "push Uranus' buttons" rather than try to avoid a scene (as Capricorn does).......so this in-sign opposition becomes even more apparent to others (and therefore seems "stronger").......which would also be the case if Uranus behaved with the emotions of Cancer rather than the airy curiousity of Gemini (since he would be more inclined to "cause a scene").

EJ

I would also agree with everyone on here. I have a number of out-of-sign aspects that show every evidence of working in my chart, even with wide-ish orbs:

Moon 28' Aries conjunct Saturn 2' Taurus

Mars 2' Pisces sextile Moon 28' Aries (you might say Mars has a dual influence over the Moon/Saturn conjunction)

Moon 28' Aries opposing Jupiter 0' Scorpio (Jupiter also serves the dual function)

Sun 26' Sagittarius sextile Mars 2' Pisces

Mars 2' Pisces square Neptune 29' Scorpio

As others have mentioned, I think the out-of-sign aspects make it harder for the aspect to function correctly because the energies are more unsettled by being partile as opposed to platick aspects. The energy is available for use due to the aspectual connection, but how it is expressed can be...interesting. Certainly not dull!

AG

I agree that a conjunction is a conjunction whether in one sign or two but what the effects are with a dissociate or out of sign conjunction is, I dont know whether it is weakened. I guess the aspects coming from elsewhere to that conjunction would have to be considered. The elements would be different also and I guess whether in fall or dignity, etc would count.

Welcome others opinions and experiences.

archergirl said:

I would also agree with everyone on here. I have a number of out-of-sign aspects that show every evidence of working in my chart, even with wide-ish orbs:

Moon 28' Aries conjunct Saturn 2' Taurus

Mars 2' Pisces sextile Moon 28' Aries (you might say Mars has a dual influence over the Moon/Saturn conjunction)

Moon 28' Aries opposing Jupiter 0' Scorpio (Jupiter also serves the dual function)

Sun 26' Sagittarius sextile Mars 2' Pisces

Mars 2' Pisces square Neptune 29' Scorpio

As others have mentioned, I think the out-of-sign aspects make it harder for the aspect to function correctly because the energies are more unsettled by being partile as opposed to platick aspects. The energy is available for use due to the aspectual connection, but how it is expressed can be...interesting. Certainly not dull!

AG

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I agree that the Sun takes wider orbs of aspects so that 6 degrees with Mars and Sun is valid but weak especially with a sextile. THe other orbs you note are also valid. For instance the square from Pisces Mars to Neptune Scorpio are strongly water so even though there may be emotional conflicts they can be overcome.

Yeah, the Mars/Sun sextile is probably the weakest aspect and only lends a 'twinkle', especially since Mars has other stronger aspects. It touches a lot of planets in my chart so I am generally 'Martial' even without the sextile to the Sun.

AG

What about an out of sign conjunction? I read it doesn't count.

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Bil Tierney writes :-

"While standard conjunctions imply a single-minded concentration and focus of energies, dissociate conjunctions are less unified and one-tracked on the psychological level. Since there are now two different signs involved that have dissimilar motivations, the urges shown by the planets do not blend or merge together as easily (and especially if the planets themselves have contrasting tempraments). Thus, dissociate conjunctions may express with less co-ordination or strength of purpose. The individual may not feel as motivated to assert himself in the direct, spontaneous, head-strong manner of the standard conjunction.................."

(Thus confirming what has already been said in previous thread comments.)

EJ

archergirl,
could you elaborate on how your out-of-sign aspects manifest in your life? that would be so interesting...

Everyone. Please look at my T-square and my mars trine pluto. My Venus square moon is 9 degrees apart plus they are in sextiling houses, althought I dont know what that means specifically because that square is part of my t-square, plus my saturn in the ninth squares venus in the first, mabie my wondering what is the point of life is getting in the way of expressing my venus?

Also my pluto trine mars is a 2 degree orb but it is pluto in the 8th and mars in the first. That is a tight trine between 1st and 8th. I guess when im talking about 8 house stuff and my pluto is going it can activate my mars and I start going passive agressive or I can offer some good but subtle advice (pisces)?

Your thoughts

I have an out of sign conjunction that I know still operates in my life.

Saturn 20 Libra, Neptune 23 Libra, and the Sun @ 0 Scorpio


I know that I have Neptune conjunct Sun and have always had lots of effects from the conjunction, even though it is wide and out of sign.
I have almost no other aspects to the Sun, just sextile to Cap Moon, and semisextile to Venus. Thus the Neptune conjunction has more room to operate imo.

Hi elumen,

I won't take up too much space explaining my chart here, but take my Mars at 2' Pisces. It sits in my 1st house. As explained earlier it makes aspects to the following planets:

OOS sextile to Moon 28' Aries
OOS sextile to Sun 26 ' Sag

Platick square to Neptune 29' Scorpio
Partile trine to Jupiter 0' Scorpio
Partile sextile to Saturn 2' Taurus

Both of the OOS sextiles work, in that Mars supports the energy of the other two planets, sort of like a small rocket booster. I have, shall we say, a lot of 'spare' energy. Because Mars is in my 1st and touches the two Lights, I have more energy than most.

However, the out-of-sign aspects with Mars help to soften its energies and diffuses the sextile energy somewhat. If my Mars were only three degrees earlier (in late Aquarius) and making contact with my Moon and Sun, I would be far less mellow and possibly far more 'prickly' (hard to imagine, I know.:38: ). It makes it more uncomfortable for me to be 'fiery' because the fire is cooled somewhat by the watery Mars...not a bad thing, but occasionally the wateriness of it dampens my fire a little too much...hence the discomfort of the out-of-sign energies. Hence, Sun/Moon are 'supported' by Mars due to the sextiles (and the rest of the planets given a boost, apart from Neptune, but that's a different thread and give me loads and loads of energy...but not always consistently or in a way that I, as a fire sign, might 'prefer' it.

That's how I see it, anyhow.
AG

JayM said:

Everyone. Please look at my T-square and my mars trine pluto. My Venus square moon is 9 degrees apart plus they are in sextiling houses, althought I dont know what that means specifically because that square is part of my t-square, plus my saturn in the ninth squares venus in the first, mabie my wondering what is the point of life is getting in the way of expressing my venus?

Also my pluto trine mars is a 2 degree orb but it is pluto in the 8th and mars in the first. That is a tight trine between 1st and 8th. I guess when im talking about 8 house stuff and my pluto is going it can activate my mars and I start going passive agressive or I can offer some good but subtle advice (pisces)?

Your thoughts

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Pluto is strong in his own sign and "natural" house: the 8th. He makes an out-of-sign trine to Venus in Aquarius, which then conjuncts Mars in Pisces, making an in-sign trine to Pluto. so I would imagine that sexuality on a profound level is important to you.

I have been following this thread closely all these days, but didn't have time to reply.

starlink said:

Never heard of that Iwonder.

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Starlink, I don't remember where I read it, but sure read about this. Maybe some very traditional view. I didn't believe it anyway

The thought of out-of-sign aspects being different sort of dawned on me and I decided to ask what other people think about them.

I have been puzzled with my own stellium with Sun at 28 Virgo, Mars 6 Libra and Pluto 7 Libra. Then I saw my son has an opposition between Cap Moon and Leo Sun. I know a couple of people with out-of-sign Sun/Mercury conjunction - and they are not exactly what you'd expect from a classical Sun/Mercury fusion.

Here is an article I found about out-of-sign conjunctions, and this is what I thought about them myself:
http://www.astrostar.com/Astrology-Aspects-Conjunctions.htm

Now I just need to apply the principles to actual aspects...

I also think it is notable that out-of sign aspects can be formed by planets that are either about to change sign or just entered a new sign. Not every chart has such planets. There must be something special about it

Archergirl -- thank you for sharing. I find it very helpful to learn from people how they actually experience these aspects.

iWonder -- what do you think of your own stellium? I imagine it just blends the Sun with Mars and Pluto together -- which makes one to be more energetic, powerful, domineering, but given that Sun in Virgo is modest, and Mars in Libra is in fall and not very strong, I'd imagine that it moderates that energy quite a bit. So you probably still have a good deal of energy but it is not expressive and intense, as if this combo was in a fire sign. I think Mars Pluto gives one a way to energetically impact others but again it would be more moderate than in fire element.

Starlink, I don't remember where I read it, but sure read about this.

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Hello Iwonder, you might be very right indeed. I was enlightened in the meantime about this by Joseph who told me that in traditional astrology that out of orb aspects do not exist. Modern astrology uses it but "is not following the rules", I believe he means traditional rules.

Although Lilly does use out of sign aspects, especially with VOC moons.

AG