Natal rulers vs. Natural Rulers

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Well, There's no such thing as a perfect Zodiac :D
Anyway conserning the outer Planets, I've noticed the big discussion around here :whistling: and tell me what's so wrong in studing/recording/associating events from this Planets in Zodiacal Charts?
Shouldn't we be furthering the studies of the ancient Astrologers and honer them by studing the skies for further generations as they did for us?
What are we contributing for the future then?
Einstein quoted: If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts.
And truth is that nothing remains the same, everything transforms...That calls for constant devellopment! Isn't that what the Nodes tell us to do? Astrology shouldn't be exception...no excuses!

Ps= Pluto was sent out to the underworld again coz it's where it belongs... But this time he was tricked by Neptune!:wink:

Nothing 'wrong' studying the outer planets. Just do not attempt to cram them into an existing ancient astrological system - i.e. planetary dignity and debility - that is working fine and has worked fine without them for at least two thousand years :smile:

Its quite refreshing to encounter such a positive response! Thank you!

Edit: jupasc and waybread: thanks for a brief history lesson.. not my strong suit of astrological knowledge.

I'm only mentioning that Robert Powell's book explains the key differences between the Sidereal and Tropical Zodiacs and their origins. It is clear that the two Zodiacs were once in synch but "drifted apart" - that's all! As for people getting the cold shoulder for disagreeing with the Establishment well that's nothing new either!:smile:
 
Last edited:

waybread

Well-known member
JupiterAsc, I have no idea what has been your level of education, notably in the discipline of history; but you seem to have invented or seized upon a theory of religious persecution that has no basis in historical fact. If your idea of making a point is insisting upon pure fabrications of history, I see no point in continuing this discussion.

There is no need to repeat your points verbatim and ad nauseum. I digested them the first time. You seem to feel that repetition strengthens your argument. It does not. It simply gives it yet another time.

Trust me that I truly understand the difference between sidereal and tropical astrology.

Trust me that Powell's credentials are noted, but so what? The author is a mathemetician/statistician, not a historian. Nicholas Campion has a Ph. D. Do you want the rest of his credentials? The credentials of the other authors I cited, and more that I haven't cited?

If you find sidereal astrology more suited to your needs, I wish you all the best with it. You might enjoy studying Vedic astrology, or the work of western astrologer Cyril Fagan, if you have not done so already.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
The sidereal zodiac sort of keeps pace with the precession of the equinoxes, but it can't do this completely with regard to fixed stars, because most sidereal systems still use 30-degree signs, and the constellations have widely varying widths along the ecliptic. Also, some constellations (such as Capricorn and Aquarius) overlap.

(a) You have previously agreed that the Tropical Zodiac is totally out of pace with and/or completely out of synch with the precession of the equinoxes because at the Spring Equinox when the Sun is actually at 6[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] Pisces, the Tropical Zodiac claims that the Spring Equinox Sun is at 0[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] Aries a.k.a. the Aries Point which is a mathematical abstraction divorced from reality - except for once every approximately twenty five thousand nine hundred years when the Vernal Point briefly aligns with 0º Aries before precession sends it gradually westward towards Pisces for another approximately twenty five thousand nine hundred years Cycle of A Great Year. The Spring Equinox Sun 'rises' at 0º Aries once every approximately twenty five thousand nine hundred and years

(b) When the Age of Aquarius ends, it shall be the Age of Capricorn, however, since Capricorn and Aquarius overlap (as dr. farr has often explained elsewhere) I look forward to interesting debates discussing the distinguishing the Age of Capricorn from the Age of Aquarius.

(c ) “The Tropical Zodiac” uses twelve 30º degree demarcations of each of the twelve 'Houses' of the astrological chart which is totally out of synch with the actual 365.256363 days that it takes Earth to orbit the Sun.

The Sidereal Zodiac also has twelve 30º degree demarcations of each of the twelve 'Houses' of the astrological chart but although also out of synch with the actual 365.256363 days that it takes Earth to orbit the Sun, the Sidereal Zodiac is closely connected to the constellations after which the Sidereal Signs are named.

historical note: The Gregorian calendar modified the Julian calendar's regular cycle of leap years (years exactly divisible by four including all centurial years) as follows: Every year that is exactly divisible by four is a leap year, except for years that are exactly divisible by 100; the centurial years that are exactly divisible by 400 are still leap years. So the year 1900 is not a leap year but the year 2000 is a leap year. In addition to the change in the mean length of the calendar year from 365.25 days (365 days 6 hours) to 365.2425 days (365 days 5 hours 49 minutes 12 seconds), a reduction of 10 minutes 48 seconds per year, the Gregorian calendar reform also dealt with the past accumulated difference between these lengths. Between when the Roman Catholic Church had been under the mistaken impression that the First Council of Nicaea AD 325 had fixed the vernal equinox to occur always on 21 March, and the time of Pope Gregory's Bull in 1582, the vernal equinox had moved backward in the calendar until it was occurring on about 11 March - ten days earlier. The Gregorian calendar therefore began by skipping ten calendar days, to restore March 21 as the date of the vernal equinox.

The tropical zodiac is a sun-based system. You can fix your starting point anywhere you like. Our convention is to place it at 0 degrees Aries, at the spring equinox. While this unhinges signs from the constellations pretty much completely, It does a decent job of marking the sun's (geocentric) passage between equinox and solstice points. Maybe it would be more helpful just to ignore the signs, and to think of the sun's passage in terms of degrees out of a total of 360.
The so-called Tropical Zodiac “does a decent job of marking the sun's (geocentric) passage between equinox and solstice points” because it is actually Ectemon's Calendar of the Seasons in disguise - but with 'Signs' substituted for months of the year. Furthermore the Tropical 'Signs' are rather obviously named after the twelve Sidereal constellations on which they are based.

Euctemon's tropical Calendar of Seasons (432 B.C.) predates the days of Ptolemaeus by over five hundred years. Euctemon's tropical Calendar of Seasons (432 B.C.) observed the Sun at the Spring Equinox, using it as a marker to track the duration of one year. Under the influence of Ptolemaeus - who was himself influenced by Aristotle - astrologers morphed the original sun-based annual calendar of Euctemon into the 'Tropical zodiac' when they began substituting 'Signs' for months

“History of the Zodiac” originally a 2004 Ph.D. thesis now in book form is an in-depth exploration of the origins of the Babylonian Zodiac and its location in the ecliptic: the book informs us that the division of the ecliptic into tropical astrological signs was originally a derivation of Euctemon's tropical Calendar of Seasons (432 B.C.); "...dividing the solar year into twelve equal months commencing with the vernal equinox, in which each solar (tropical) month is named after one of each of the twelve signs..." (Dr. Robert Powell 2007)

Some modern astrologers do work with fixed stars. A very few work with actual constellations instead of signs.

How can modern astrologers using the Tropical Zodiac "work with fixed stars" and/or "actual constellations" when the Tropical Zodiac is demonstrably totally out of synch with the constellations?

For example, the alleged "shift of the fixed Star Regulus from Leo to Virgo" is only a theoretical construct of the out-of-synch "Tropical Zodiac" because Sidereally the fixed Star Regulus is in early Leo and nowhere near Virgo.

Obviously, it is modern Sidereal astrologers who when working with the Sidereal Zodiac are able to work with the fixed stars and/or actual constellations which are closely connected to Sidereal Signs :smile:
Trust me that Powell's credentials are noted, but so what? The author is a mathemetician/statistician, not a historian.
Claudius Ptolemaeus author of "Almagest" was a mathematician - not an astrologer :smile:
[B said:
waybread;[/B]325975]This is why I suggested, above, that it might make more sense to stop calling signs after constellations, and just identify them as sectors of the sky falling within specific degree ranges. Taurus, for example, becomes merely 30 to 60 degrees.
This would mean returning to Euctemon's tropical Calendar of Seasons (432 B.C.) which did not morph "Signs" with constellations but simply observed the Sun on its yearly apparent journey along Seasonal markers - good idea - especially if we take note of precession as well and link the Vernal Point to the constellations - thus creating a system exactly the same as Sidereal Astrology :smile:
 

waybread

Well-known member
JupiterAsc, let me try once more to make some sense out of this muddle. But I am fast losing patience.

1. Nobody disputes that the tropical zodiac is only loosely hinged to the constellations today. Just as nobody argues that sidereal astrology is closely linked to the solar year. I have seen both types of astrologers produce good results. To each her own.

2. A sidereal zodiac is no guarantee, ipso facto, that the astrologer using it will produce more accurate results than an astrologer using a tropical zodiac. Whatever accuracy we might glimpse in the last 2000 years of the history of western astrology, most of it was done with the tropical zodiac.

3. Modern astrologers who use both the tropical zodiac and fixed stars (check out Bernadette Brady) don't see a problem. Neither did the traditional western astrologers. (Check out lots of them.) This is because, even back in antiquity, the qualities of many of the fixed stars were only loosely linked to the descriptions of the constellations in which they were located. For example, if a star is seen as having a malevolent influence, it would be expected to have it regardless of the tropical or sidereal zodiac.

4. In terms of Ptolemy's occupational status, you have to keep in mind that the branches of knowledge in antiquity (indeed, till modern times) were not divided up the way they are today, but were far more eclectic and inclusive (for example, the field termed natural philosophy). Anyone doing original astronomical and astrological calculations, let alone horoscope construction, would have to be a good mathematician. The math background just goes without saying: have you ever constructed a horoscope by hand?

For sure, some of Ptolemy's "knowledge" was erroneous, pretty far-fetched, or plain goofy. It is in the nature of the scientific enterprise for scholars to adopt the work of their predessors if they find it useful. It is the nature of the scientific enterprise that older work gets superceded by more recent and accurate work. Ptolemy made signal contributions to a variety of disciplines. His map of the known world was the gold standard prior to the Age of Discovery. Building on the work of previous scholars, he developed the system of latitude and longitude. He described the known world's cultures.

5. Since the Age of Capricorn will begin roughly 2000 years from now, you will not be around to enjoy any "interesting debates."
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
For sure, some of Ptolemy's "knowledge" was erroneous, pretty far-fetched, or plain goofy.
That's an understatement :smile:

5. Since the Age of Capricorn will begin roughly 2000 years from now, you will not be around to enjoy any "interesting debates."
So? Neither shall you nor any of the seven billion plus humans currently alive on planet Earth - although in view of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF3KqGpxXvo&feature=share originally posted by piercethevale one never knows :smile:
 
Last edited:

Clair Y

Active member
Hi everybody,

I've been studying astrology for a couple of years but I'm still very unsure.

I read a lot of books and I attended a course... to make a long story short, I was taught in the course to look almost only at natural rulers but I know most astrologers look at natal rulers.

For ex. if second house is in Capricorn, Ii consider it to be in Capricorn and then I look to Venus and Jupiter, natural rulers of the second house and not Saturn (natal ruler of 2nd since it is in Capricorn).

I'm wondering if you also look at natural rulers and in case you look at both (natal and natural) how you manage data.

Sorry for my English :crying:

I would use the natal ruler whilst interpreting a house and finding out how an individual connects with the house. As for the house itself, I would say the interpretation of its meaning could be aided with regards to the natural ruler of that house.

That which is personal is the natal (within his/ her chart) and that which is natural is the universal/ external (of a chart structure and pertaining to houses 1 - 12 in meaning).

That's my take on it.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
....For ex. if second house is in Capricorn, Ii consider it to be in Capricorn and then I look to Venus and Jupiter, natural rulers of the second house and not Saturn (natal ruler of 2nd since it is in Capricorn).

I'm wondering if you also look at natural rulers and in case you look at both (natal and natural) how you manage data.

An alternative to natural house rulers :smile:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52099

http://www.azastrologers.org/Articles/NoblehorseThemaMundi.pdf

And here is one picture I found that graphically shows the Thema from the same pdf.

So, let's consider. Most astrologers (as far as I know both traditional and modern) consider Aries to be the "natural" first house. Why? Especially if Cancer rises in the Thema, that would make Cancer the real "natural" first house, ruled by the Moon, and when we think of people...how we evolved out of the sea (water), how we have always considered the Moon as the mother...this makes sense to me. Leo as the natural second house? What does the second signify? The resources that support the body (ASC/1st?) Further, ancient astrology considered that the Moon did represent the body...again this makes sense if cancer rises.
illustration sourced from douglas Noblehorse

attachment.php
 

waybread

Well-known member
I mostly look at the planet that rules the sign on the house cusp, both modern and traditional. For Aquarius, for example, I would look at both Uranus and Saturn.

I can understand the logic behind seeing Venus as the "natural ruler" of the second house, in the sense that if the second house is set equal to the second sign (which I personally don't think it is), and Venus is the ruler of Taurus, then you end up with Venus as the "natural house ruler" of the second house.

However, I really don't think astrology works this way because houses and signs mean different things. A house shows you "where" or in what domain of life a planet operates. A sign shows you "how" or in what manner a planet operates; its style of operation. These are important differences.

Also, I don't see the connection with Jupiter and the second house unless you happen to have Sagittarius or Pisces on the cusp.
 

tsmall

Premium Member
according to my teacher, Venus has its domicile in Taurus, but Jupiter is exalted in Taurus, that's why :)

Jupiter is exalted in Taurus now? I thought the Moon was exalted there, and Jupiter was exalted in Cancer. All these changes, I can't keep up. :andy:
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
If you are referring to the picture posted above, Jupiter is listed in the outer ring in its Hellenist "Joy" in the 11th (whole sign) house, not as being exalted in Taurus (notice that in the picture the Moon is listed as exalted in that sign)
 

greybeard

Well-known member
Just an opinion...

Use the lords of the houses in preference to natural rulers.

Natural rulers have their place and use, but the planet determined toward a specific trait or type of thing is specific.

That is why you take the trouble to get an exact birth time.
 

tsmall

Premium Member
If you are referring to the picture posted above, Jupiter is listed in the outer ring in its Hellenist "Joy" in the 11th (whole sign) house, not as being exalted in Taurus (notice that in the picture the Moon is listed as exalted in that sign)


lol, I was refering to the OP, with tongue in cheek. :lol: Because so often I see the exaltations get shuffled around. Like Mercury in Aquarius (I think that's what it was..)
 

Claire19

Well-known member
Hi everybody,

I've been studying astrology for a couple of years but I'm still very unsure.

I read a lot of books and I attended a course... to make a long story short, I was taught in the course to look almost only at natural rulers but I know most astrologers look at natal rulers.

For ex. if second house is in Capricorn, Ii consider it to be in Capricorn and then I look to Venus and Jupiter, natural rulers of the second house and not Saturn (natal ruler of 2nd since it is in Capricorn).

I'm wondering if you also look at natural rulers and in case you look at both (natal and natural) how you manage data.

Sorry for my English :crying:
If your second house cusp is Capricorn then you look at what your Saturn is doing, as it rules that house. You dont look at the natural rulers. The whole point of having a correct time of birth is that you have a unique chart with all sorts of diffeent rulers on the house cusps. If you have Aries rising, the natural ascendant, then that is an exception. The natural ruler of the 2nd house is Venus only but that is because Taurus is on the cusp. It may be that Earth is the proper ruler really, but that is a whole other story. I digress.
 

Claire19

Well-known member
Just an opinion...

Use the lords of the houses in preference to natural rulers.

Natural rulers have their place and use, but the planet determined toward a specific trait or type of thing is specific.

That is why you take the trouble to get an exact birth time.
Exactly right. No ifs or buts with this principle. The sign on the cusp of any house is individual according to the time of birth calculated for the place and time of year. .
 

Claire19

Well-known member
JupiterAsc, perhaps we can agree on the historical facts. Check out Wikipedia for corroboration. I have to stress that there is a way that the past happened: we don't get to make it up to suit our rhetorical purposes.

1. There was no "church" 2000 years ago, when Jesus presumably was alive. He lived and died a Jew, and the concept of a new religion took root only after his death.

2. Christians were a perseceuted minority until the reign of the emperor Constantine in the 5th century.

3. The difference of a few centuries is not neglible.

4. Judaism was a tiny persecuted minority under the Roman empire and subsequently. Its priests and rabbis had no power to enforce anything beyond their small group. They appear to have practiced some astrology but its details are sketchy.

5. The development of the tropical zodiac took place over several centuries; namely because during the Age of Aries (BC) the differences between the sidereal and tropical zodiacs were negligible given the imprecision of astrological/astronomical calculations. An astrological interpretation offered at the cruder level of a planet in a sign affords a lot of wiggle room that an astrology based upon a planet at a particular degree does not. Ptolemy, for example, based his aspects upon the position of signs, not degrees.

6. As the discrepancy bectween the tropical and sidereal zodiacs became increasingly apparent, western astrologers used the tropical zodiac because it (a) more closely approximated their seasons in the northern hemisphere; and (b) enabled them to retain their astrological lore derived from assuming zero degrees Aries as the vernal equinox point.

7. Scholars of antiquity freely borrowed from one another, with or without attribution. When one scholar was aware of the works of another, he was free to discard it, use it or build upon it.

8. Ptolemy was a Roman citizen living Egypt and a pagan. He wrote at a time (2nd century AD) when the influence of the infant, persecuted Christian church was negligible. Moreover, corrections to his work started immediately and notably among Arab astronomers of the early middle ages. (Hey, he wrote in the 2nd century AD, a period of fairly primitive astronomical instrumentation.) The idea that he faced punishment for his work has zero basis in historical evidence.

9. Astrology flourished under early Islam, as these scholars translated the Greek texts, made more detailed star catalogues, and added their own insights to the classical works. Islamic astrologers were not living in Christendom and the influence of Christianity on their astrology was neglible. During the Middle Ages and Renaissance, western astrologers obtained classical pagan astrological works via the Arab world.

7. By late antiquity, the tropical zodiac was the normal one used in the West. (See also Rhetorius The Egyptian, Astrological Compendium, early 6th century, who starts out his book with the rationale for the tropical zodiac.)

8. Astrologers use the geocentric solar system, not because they don't know about the heliocentric solar system, but because of the rationale of the geocentric system for astrological purposes. Astrology looks at the influence of heavenly bodies on earth-people.

9. We are all clear on the differences between the sidereal and tropical zodiacs, signs vs. constellations, and on the precession of the equinox.

10. 30 degree signs in the sidereal system do not coincide sufficientlyclosely with constellations to argue that the sidereal system is purely constellation-based. The constellation Virgo occupies portions of 3 signs. Aries doesn't touch the ecliptic and occupies much less than 30 degrees. Portions of the ecliptic have no zodiacal constellations covering them. Several constellations overlap, such as Capricorn and Aquarius, and Scorpio and Sagittarius.

11. Right now, tropical signs are about 27 degrees out of synch with sidereal signs. If you have planets in the first three degrees of a tropical sign, it will be in that sign in the sidereal system.

12. As the church did become powerful in Europe, it exhibited an on-again, off-again relationship with astrology. Many astrologers were members of the clergy, as they were among the few people who were literate and could do the math. See Nicholas Campions' books here. The church did not persecute anybody for believing in a heliocentric solar system prior to the Renaissance, because it took the work of Nicholas Copernicus in the early 16th century to make this case.

13. The Powell book looks interesting, but it is not the only work on this subject. The Gleadow book, BTW is titled The Origins of the Zodiac. See also David Ovason, The History of the Horoscope.
spot on as usual. Jesus in fact would be less than pleased about any church being founded in his name or indeed Mary's. He wa an Essene
and had his own beliefs really which was why he was seen as a rebel and was rather an outcast for many years. There was,more than 2000 years ago, in fact probably eons, knowledge of the stars and planets that we have yet to rediscover and yes they had telescopes powerful enough to observe the heavens not mention being able to travel back and forth amongst the stars. Whole other story..

The clergy kept astrology closely guarded as well as being the only ones educated enough to read and write. It gave them power and knowledge and wanted to keep the masses dumbed down and fearful and hence have power over them.
 
Last edited:

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
spot on as usual. Jesus in fact would be less than pleased about any church being founded in his name or indeed Mary's. He wa an Essene
and had his own beliefs really which was why he was seen as a rebel and was rather an outcast for many years. There was,more than 2000 years ago, in fact probably eons, knowledge of the stars and planets that we have yet to rediscover and yes they had telescopes powerful enough to observe the heavens not mention being able to travel back and forth amongst the stars. Whole other story..

The clergy kept astrology closely guarded as well as being the only ones educated enough to read and write. It gave them power and knowledge and wanted to keep the masses dumbed down and fearful and hence have power over them
.
fwiw the comments I posted earlier on this thread ARE historically accurate :smile:

Early Christians suffered sporadic persecution because they refused to pay homage to the emperor as divine. Persecution was on the rise in Asia Minor towards the end of the 1st century,[6] as well as in Rome in the aftermath of the Great Fire of Rome in AD 64 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity


"....By the Middle Ages, such ideas took on a new power as the philosophy of Aristotle (newly rediscovered in Europe) was wedded to Medieval theology in the great synthesis of Christianity and Reason undertaken by philsopher-theologians such as Thomas Aquinas. The Prime Mover of Aristotle's universe became the God of Christian theology, the outermost sphere of the Prime Mover became identified with the Christian Heaven, and the position of the Earth at the center of it all was understood in terms of the concern that the Christian God had for the affairs of mankind...."

"....Thus, the ideas largely originating with pagan Greek philosophers were baptized into the Catholic church and eventually assumed the power of religious dogma: to challenge this view of the Universe was not merely a scientific issue; it became a theological one as well, and subjected dissenters to the considerable and not always benevolent power of the Church....."
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/retrograde/aristotle.html

......as a matter of fact, it was one thousand nine hundred and twenty five years to be exact, which is indeed approximately two thousand years ago since the current year is 2011 when Claudius Ptolemaeus was alive i.e. 85-165 AD, born when the 'Christian' Church was in its infancy and also when members of the Early Christian Church were being persecuted by the Roman State.
Religious ideas and texts influenced astronomer-astrologers. That is because the earliest theories on the cosmos placed the earth at the centre of the universe: sun, moon, planets and stars all circled the earth. The Mesopotamians taught this theory centuries before either Aristotle or Ptolemaeus (who was strongly influenced by Aristotle).

Although there were dissenters such as Greek astronomer Aristarchus who in 270 BC taught that the earth circled the sun, Aristotle who lived 384 – 322 BC carried more clout than Aristarchus and so the debate was silenced for generations and then around 150 AD, Claudius Ptolemaeus elaborated Aristotle's influential ideas into a complete cosmological geocentric model of the cosmos in a book called “Almagest” in which Ptolemaeus declared the Earth was stationary in space and that the Sun, the stars, and all planets revolve around it in circular orbits

During the following centuries the Roman Church grew very powerful, becoming the spiritual and political authority in the "civilized" world. Because of this the 'scientists' of that day had to answer to Rome for their discoveries and were often forced to conform their discoveries to religious policy. It was believed by the church that the universe was perfectly ordered, this meant not only was the earth the center of the universe but the universe must rotate around the earth in perfect circles. Since observations by astronomers did not collaborate this simple view of perfection the Ptolomic model of the universe became very complex, with planets circling on circles around circles

Clearly then, Old Testament religious texts and practices were sufficiently powerful to influence Ptolemaeus to disagree with Hipparchus whose writings demonstrating precession - ie that the Vernal point is drifting westwards – were known to Ptolemaeus .

Ptolemaeus did not precisely say why he disagreed with Hipparchus instead Ptolemaeus simply devised a complex system of "epicycles" to account for the apparent retrograde motion of the planets. In Ptolemaeus epicycle system, each planet revolved around the earth in a large circle by making a series of smaller circles, to account for this effect.
The motives for attempting to harmonize astronomy and Old Testament/Biblical texts are complex. A common one is to unify ethical and scientific systems of "truth." The desire to validate the social and ethical policies of the Biblical/religious texts is clearly at the heart of some attempts to show that the Bible/religious texts are reliable in all that they teach. Probably the most disturbing accusation against Ptolemaeus is that his figures were intentionally skewed and doctored to fit his hypotheses. A study of Ptolemaeus figures was done in 1977, and the findings were that most of his data was fraudulent. For more on this subject, one should refer to the book by R. Newton, The Crime of Claudius Ptolemy. If Ptolemaeus had used correct numbers in his work, it might not have taken future scholars 1400 more years to correct wrong ideas concerning the universe.

Ptolemaeus geocentric system of the universe was the result of making scientific observations and offering scientific theories to explain those observations. That is, Ptolemaeus made up stories that were consistent with what could be observed. Why did he do that? Probably because he was living during a time when "politically incorrect" beliefs could be grounds for punishment. It actually may not have been safe for him to expose the truth; instead he may have been forced to make his numbers fit into incorrect theories.

Ptolemaeus knew enough about the truth...the precession of the equinoxes and the theories that postulated that the earth, in fact, revolved around the sun to have said so. Clearly Ptolemaeus bowed to the powerful influence that Biblical texts had on the prevailing official Establishment view.

Because biblical passages suggested the sun was in constant motion while Earth remained in one place, the prevailing Establishment Religious view accepted the Ptolemaic theory and when the Roman Catholic Church was in control, anyone who did not believe in the Ptolemaic theory would be punished, to begin with, by house arrest.
In any event, due to threat of punishment, astronomers were often forced to conform their discoveries to prevailing religious Establishment dogma. It was believed by religious leaders that the universe was perfectly ordered - this meant not only was the earth the center of the universe but the universe must rotate around the earth in perfect circles. Since observations by astronomers did not collaborate this simple view of perfection the Ptolemaeus model of the universe became very complex, with planets circling on circles around circles

Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity and as the years passed dissenters to the idea that the Sun orbits earth were burnt alive while tied to a stake of wood by the powerful Church State. :smile:
 
Top