What planet as natural signifier of children?

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Drsendero

Well-known member
I am wondering if there is a planet that is traditionally used as the natural signifier of children. The Moon is taken to signify mothers, the Sun (and sometimes Saturn) as fathers, but what about children? I've checked Ben Dyke's Introductions to Astrology, and Ribeiro & Avelar's book, but I haven't found any mention of a planet signifying children, other than the lord of the fifth house, of course. Does anyone know?

Thanks!
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Moon was frequently used as general significator for children (especially for infants) among the ancients; some also used Moon for little girls and Mercury for little boys. In my opinion it is more specific(and therefore more practically effective) to use lord of the 5th house (natal, or horary) rather than attempt a generic planetary significator for "children in general"...
 
Culpeper

Culpeper

Premium Member
Use Jupiter for this especially if they are school children. This is from Christian Astrology page 63. The key word is scholars as used in England.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Drsendero said:
I am wondering if there is a planet that is traditionally used as the natural signifier of children.
The Moon is taken to signify mothers, the Sun (and sometimes Saturn) as fathers, but what about children?
I've checked Ben Dyke's Introductions to Astrology, and Ribeiro & Avelar's book
but I haven't found any mention of a planet signifying children, other than the lord of the fifth house, of course.
Does anyone know?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
refer to THE ANTHOLOGY Vettius Valens :smile:
written in Ancient Greek near enough two thousand years ago
translated by Professor Riley CSU and free to read and download
in pdf form http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/vettius%20valens%20entire.pdf

QUOTES FROM THE ANTHOLOGY by Vettius Valens:


 '... Jupiter rules childbearing... of the internal parts Jupiter rules the sperm, the uterus....'

'....Venus indicates the mother and nurture....'

'... Mercury is the lord of brothers and of younger children....'

'... the Moon in a nativity indicates life, body, the mother, nurture, conception.....'

'....Mars rules the sperm ducts.... also indicates abortions....'

'...Saturn signifies the fathership of the children of others....'


keep in mind that
any of the aforementioned planets may rule 5th house
and/or may be located in 5th house


dr. farr said:
Moon was frequently used as general significator for children (especially for infants) among the ancients;
some also used Moon for little girls and Mercury for little boys.
In my opinion it is more specific(and therefore more practically effective) to use lord of the 5th house (natal, or horary)
rather than attempt a generic planetary significator for "children in general"...
Click to expand...
Good point, thanks dr. farr
 
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icequeen

icequeen

Well-known member
I would take a look at Lord of the fifth and see the sign he is posited and which other planets that sign is hosting..
 
D

Drsendero

Well-known member
Thanks all of you for your quick and enlightening responses! I appreciate it. Yes, I know that the lord of the 5th is definitely relevant, but I have recently become interested in also checking out natural signifiers and it occurred to me that I hadn't come across one for children.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Drsendero said:
Thanks all of you for your quick and enlightening responses! I appreciate it.
Yes, I know that the lord of the 5th is definitely relevant
but I have recently become interested in also checking out natural signifiers
and it occurred to me that I hadn't come across one for children.
Click to expand...
good that you found this thread useful and
as dr. farr has wisely remarked earlier, it is counter productive to attempt
a generic planetary significator for "children in general" :smile:
 
tsmall

tsmall

Premium Member
The short answer to the OP is that while each chart will be different, leading to the need to look at the ruler of the 5th, etc, traditionally Jupiter is the general significator of children.

Keeping it simple,
Tamara
 
tsmall

tsmall

Premium Member
All, I have deleted a post that did not pertain to traditional astrology. As a reminder, please make sure you read board headers before you post to threads.

Keeping the tradition,
Tamara
 
Dirius

Dirius

Well-known member
moonris3 said:
I've never heard of a traditional Jupiter associated to childhood, and being it mythologically the God of the gods, indeed it better fits in the characters of "expansion" and "knowledge" that it assumes in Sagittarius and Pisces, two sage, mystic-like signs; then we could as well analyze the Sun and Venus and Saturn and Uranus and what not. Analyzing the entire chart is always better eheh.

I'd like to be told where tradition does associate Jupiter to children as well because I'm really missing it!
Click to expand...

Jupiter is the bringer of good fortune, and is associated with offspring and bearing children (JUPASC already wrote this).

Some authors identify Jupiter as associated with "children", but they are never specific if they are describing him as the planet that beggets children or as a natural ruler for them. There may be authors that identify as ruling young children though.

So the point of Jupiter is up to interpretation.
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
moonris3 said:
Let me write it all again,
just for the sake of making it clear that I wasn't defying any rules.

First of all we need to understand... which children do you mean to analyze?

-Mercury is traditionally the planet associated to children, because of its very myth
(Mercury was the kid of the gods, and always remained a child-like divinity)
and because it rules the fastest and somehow "teen" signs of the zodiac:
Virgo, the name reminds us of the virgin-like condition of puberty,
and Gemini, the symbolical teen of all the signs.

-The Moon, because it rules over the memory and the "subconscious" life
(but we can say that it rules over "dreams" if you have any problem with modern terms; but it's the same thing)
is supposed to symbolize childhood as well; the way we'll remember and think of our childhood will be indicated by the Moon.

-The 5th house, house of creativity, as in reproduction.

I've never heard of a traditional Jupiter associated to childhood,
and being it mythologically the God of the gods,
indeed it better fits in the characters of "expansion" and "knowledge"
that it assumes in Sagittarius and Pisces, two sage, mystic-like signs;
then we could as well analyze the Sun and Venus
and Saturn and Uranus and what not.
Analyzing the entire chart is always better eheh.

I'd like to be told
where tradition does associate Jupiter to children as well
because I'm really missing it!
Click to expand...
refer to THE ANTHOLOGY Vettius Valens :smile:
written in Ancient Greek near enough two thousand years ago
translated by Professor Riley CSU and free to read and download
in pdf form http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/vettius valens entire.pdf

QUOTE FROM THE ANTHOLOGY
by Vettius Valens:


 '... Jupiter rules childbearing...
of the internal parts Jupiter rules the sperm, the uterus....'
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
moonris3 said:

Thanks for this.

Vettius calls Jupiter the child-bearer though,
so it doesn't symbolize children, but the opposite.
It educates.

It makes even more sense because the children are Mercury according to him, opposed to Jupiter.
Click to expand...
Vettius Valens says :smile:

'... Jupiter rules childbearing...
of the internal parts Jupiter rules the sperm, the uterus....'

clearly
childbearing involves bearing a child, children

in contrast

'... Mercury is the lord of brothers and of younger children....'


refer to THE ANTHOLOGY Vettius Valens
written in Ancient Greek near enough two thousand years ago
translated by Professor Riley CSU and free to read and download
in pdf form http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
 
D

Drsendero

Well-known member
Hello,
It's good to keep in mind that in "traditional astrology" there hasn't always been just one planet or house to signify a given topic. For example, keeping with the theme of children, according to Robert Schmidt's article "The Facets of Fate: The Rationale Underlying the Hellenistic System of Houses," he notes that the fourth, eleventh and tenth houses have also signified children for the ancient Greeks, apparently depending upon the situation. (The article can be found online for those interested).

So, I can accept that Mercury, the Moon, and even Jupiter could all have something to say about children, depending upon the situation. I guess we should all take a look at the 4th, 11th, and 10th houses according to Schmidt's article, as appropriate.

While my asking about a "general signifier for children" could be considered inappropriate, by casting the net wide the question allowed people to answer with all that they knew about the topic, and even to engage in further discussion. To that end, it would be nice to know if Jupiter is mentioned by other Hellenistic astrologers, or if this signification is due to Valens - as Dirius notes, the quote supplied does seem a bit off the mark. To me it focuses more on the creation of a fetus (fertilization?) than on children (which I'm thinking of here as a young and separate human being in relationship to parents).

Drsendero
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Drsendero said:
Hello,
It's good to keep in mind that in "traditional astrology" there hasn't always been just one planet or house to signify a given topic. For example, keeping with the theme of children, according to Robert Schmidt's article "The Facets of Fate: The Rationale Underlying the Hellenistic System of Houses," he notes that the fourth, eleventh and tenth houses have also signified children for the ancient Greeks, apparently depending upon the situation. (The article can be found online for those interested).

So, I can accept that Mercury, the Moon, and even Jupiter could all have something to say about children, depending upon the situation. I guess we should all take a look at the 4th, 11th, and 10th houses according to Schmidt's article, as appropriate.

While my asking about a "general signifier for children" could be considered inappropriate, by casting the net wide the question allowed people to answer with all that they knew about the topic, and even to engage in further discussion. To that end, it would be nice to know if Jupiter is mentioned by other Hellenistic astrologers, or if this signification is due to Valens - as Dirius notes, the quote supplied does seem a bit off the mark.
To me it focuses more on the creation of a fetus (fertilization?)
Click to expand...

Vettius Valens clearly states

 '... the Moon in a nativity indicates life, body, the mother, nurture, conception.....'


Drsendero said:

than on children
(which I'm thinking of here as a young and separate human being in relationship to parents).

Drsendero
Click to expand...
Vettius Valens refers to childbearing :smile:
and not foetus bearing
 
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tsmall

tsmall

Premium Member
moonris3 said:
Let me write it all again, just for the sake of making it clear that I wasn't defying any rules.

First of all we need to understand... which children do you mean to analyze?

-Mercury is traditionally the planet associated to children, because of its very myth (Mercury was the kid of the gods, and always remained a child-like divinity) and because it rules the fastest and somehow "teen" signs of the zodiac: Virgo, the name reminds us of the virgin-like condition of puberty, and Gemini, the symbolical teen of all the signs.

-The Moon, because it rules over the memory and the "subconscious" life (but we can say that it rules over "dreams" if you have any problem with modern terms; but it's the same thing) is supposed to symbolize childhood as well; the way we'll remember and think of our childhood will be indicated by the Moon.

-The 5th house, house of creativity, as in reproduction.

I've never heard of a traditional Jupiter associated to childhood, and being it mythologically the God of the gods, indeed it better fits in the characters of "expansion" and "knowledge" that it assumes in Sagittarius and Pisces, two sage, mystic-like signs; then we could as well analyze the Sun and Venus and Saturn and Uranus and what not. Analyzing the entire chart is always better eheh.

I'd like to be told where tradition does associate Jupiter to children as well because I'm really missing it!
Click to expand...

Let me go over it again, and at least this time you actually made an attempt to correlate it to traditional astrology.

You are mixing a few things up. Jupiter's firdaria does not correspond to childhood, correct. That doesn't change his natural significations. Mythology has not a single thing to do with traditional astrology. That's a modern concept. Weeeel...it's made more important in modern astrology. Uranus has no place on this forum. Do not further tempt me to delete your posts.

Since you'd like to be told,

Jupiter however, is a prosperous one, of a hot and moist nature, airy, moderate, life bringing, powerful in signifying children and philosophy and teachers..
Click to expand...
~Abu Ma'shar, The Abbriviation of the Introduction to Astrology

And he signifies the nutrutive sould and life and ensouled bodies. Also children and the children of children
Click to expand...

~Abu Ma'shar, Great Introduction to the knowledge of the Judgements of the Stars

Ezra, Lilly, Sahl, Masha'Allah. Jupiter is widely known to be the traditional general significator of children.

This forum is for the discussion of traditional methodology. I'm not one to shut down conversation, but I will shut down condescension and a deliberate attempt to skirt the forum guidelines.

Keeping it traditional,
Tamara
 
tsmall

tsmall

Premium Member
Drsendero said:
Hello,
It's good to keep in mind that in "traditional astrology" there hasn't always been just one planet or house to signify a given topic. For example, keeping with the theme of children, according to Robert Schmidt's article "The Facets of Fate: The Rationale Underlying the Hellenistic System of Houses," he notes that the fourth, eleventh and tenth houses have also signified children for the ancient Greeks, apparently depending upon the situation. (The article can be found online for those interested).

So, I can accept that Mercury, the Moon, and even Jupiter could all have something to say about children, depending upon the situation. I guess we should all take a look at the 4th, 11th, and 10th houses according to Schmidt's article, as appropriate.

While my asking about a "general signifier for children" could be considered inappropriate, by casting the net wide the question allowed people to answer with all that they knew about the topic, and even to engage in further discussion. To that end, it would be nice to know if Jupiter is mentioned by other Hellenistic astrologers, or if this signification is due to Valens - as Dirius notes, the quote supplied does seem a bit off the mark. To me it focuses more on the creation of a fetus (fertilization?) than on children (which I'm thinking of here as a young and separate human being in relationship to parents).

Drsendero
Click to expand...

"General significators" do have their place in traditional astrology, which is why they are given to us. Of course, it is essential to read charts and use the methods we are more familiar with, but the planets themselves do generally signify certain things. To discard that is to miss, and misread many nuances in a chart. The actual quotes I posted, in answer to your OP, come directly from Dykes' Introductions to Traditional Astrology.

Generally,
Tamara
 
tsmall

tsmall

Premium Member
moonris3 said:
Lol.

I'll remember to forget of Uranus and Neptune and Pluto when coming here next time, thank you for censoring me!

Anyway I just copy pasted the very same post you had deleted, and I just deleted Uranus from the list of "random" influences, lol. Dear Uranus, always putting me in troubles!

Anyway. Going back to tradition, I think we can discuss it here, right? We can make confrontations or start analyzes, uh?

If that's legit, then, I'd like you to explain me how would you relate a teacher and a child?
How can Jupiter both symbolize teachers and children? They're very much opposite.

I very much agree with Jupiter being luck, expansion, optimism, a "jovial" character is always fresh, but it's no child-like. It's wise, a funny teacher. Not a student. Jupiter can bring good things and lots of things, children too. Why not. But it doesn't symbolize children. In fact that's Mercury. Why are you always leaving Mercury out? Uh. Tradition talks of it too. Don't forget tradition.

In the quotes you refer there's a first valid analysis and a second one which is just a list of more or less accurate things.

Can we find weird things out of tradition or do we have to consider them like Bible? Cause I don't believe in God, js.
Click to expand...

I'm not terribly interested in arguing with you or changing your mind about what you believe. I am terribly interested in making sure that the conversations occur in the right place. I don't appreciate being trolled.

To that end, I challenge you to try to figure out, all on your own, why tradition has Jupiter as the natural significator of children. It's not my job to spoon feed answers to you. As a moderator, it IS my job to make sure that agreeable conversations happen in the appropriate places.
 
M

muchacho

Well-known member
On the matter of children, Jupiter plays an important role. Here's a list of quotes from the classics:


Ptolemy on children:
"We must take the Moon, Jupiter and Venus to portend the giving of children, the Sun, Mars and Saturn to indicate few or no children..." (Tetrabiblos IV-6)


Dorotheus on children:
"Look at the first and second lord of Jupiter's triplicity, if they are both together in a good place departing from the Sun's rays, then the two of them indicated children and benefit from them... the lord of Jupiter's triplicity, which is the indicator of the matter of children..." (Book II-9)

"The lot of children: count from Jupiter to Saturn... Jupiter and Mercury indicate children if they are in good places, but deny it if they are in sterile signs..." (Book II-10)


Paul of Alexandria on children:
"It will be necessary to lok at the 5th and the 11th from the ASC and the top house and the one lying opposite it, which is the IMC, and the lot of children, and also, in addition to these, the star of Jupiter, the ruler of its triplicity, and the star of Venus and the star of Mercury..." (Chapter 25)


Umar Al-Tabari on children:
"Look at the fifth sign and its lord, also Venus and Jupiter and the lot of children, and its lord..." (Book III-9)


Abu Bakr on children:
"The sages looked in the matters of children from many things: namely from the 5th house and its lord, from the lot of children and its lord, from Jupiter and the lords of his triplicity, from Mercury and Venus and also from the planets appearing in the house of children" (Book II-6)


Masha'Allah on children:
"Consult the lords of the Jovial triplicity... the lot of children - it being taken up from Jupiter to Saturn..." (Book III-5)


Abu'Ali on children:
"Look at the house of children and its lord, and at Venus and Jupiter, an likewise the lot of children and its lord, and the lord of Jupiter's triplicity... and state the multitude of children from Jupiter and Venus, and their scarcity from Saturn and Mars and their middling amount from the Sun, Moon and Mercury." (Chapter 20)


Firmicus on children:
"If the Moon is in a masculine sign [...] and the Sun is also in a masculine sign, but Saturn is on the angles or in the twelfth house, children are indicated neither for a young girl nor a women. But if Jupiter is on the first angles and in favorable aspect, one child is allotted..." (Book 7-19)
"If Jupiter and Mercury are in conjunction on the ascendant but ascendant itself is in a double sign, with Moon on the angle and the Sun in a sign in which it has another planet with it, either that chart is that of twins or the native will have twin children." (Book 7-3)


Al Biruni on indications of Jupiter:
"Vital, growing nutritive faculties and the air in the heart." (414)
"Arteries, sperm and bone marrow." (419)
"Thighs and intestines, womb and throat." (423)
"Children and grandchildren." (427)


Parashara on houses and their meanings and significators:
"I now narrate the significance of the houses. The first house denotes the soul... the 5th progeny... The significators of the houses in order are: Sun, Jupiter, Mars, Moon, Jupiter, Mars, Venus, Saturn, Jupiter, Mercury, Jupiter, Saturn.... The 5th from Jupiter denotes sons..." (BPHS Chapter 32)
 
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