Mars in detriment?

TamaraL · Nov 26, 2013

Whats your experience, with Mars in Taurus (detriment)?
Also my Mars is conjunct Jupiter in 11th house.I 've been told that this aspect needs balance in terms of being a workaholic :pinched:

(physically exhausting your self).
Thank you!
Tam,

Clinton Soule · Nov 26, 2013

TamaraL,

Remember the horoscope you helped me post?

Well the style you have posted is very difficult to read by most, The WEBB BASED style on astro.com or Liz green style is easy to read.

ALSO, though I initially like many started with PLACIDUS, many astrologers like Lilly of the historic past used REGIOMONTANUS and I personally for natal work love KOCH, so you might re-consider the HOUSE SYSTEM to utilize.

Usually it's a dead give away that an astrologer posts in PLACIDUS as it tells all what a NEWBIE they are! I can hear the newbies steaming, some can't seem to leave the newbie category as they are truly STUCK:

KOCH

(Frances Sakoian and Louis Acker)

Since Mars in the sign Taurus shows a strong desire for money, much energy is exerted to acquire money and material possessions. This position of Mars indicates practicality, so that the energy is channeled into useful tasks that will produce concrete results.

Mars in Taurus is the sign of its detriment, being opposite the sign Scorpio, which Mars rules. The energy and action of Mars, therefore, will be slowed down by material obstacles and limitations. As Taurus is an Earth sign, the dense material plane does not respond as quickly as Mars would like to. People with this Mars position are slow to act, but possess great determination and perseverance once a course of action has been chosen. Although they are not especially aggressive, if they are forced to fight then this position will make them strong and unyielding.

Mars in Taurus can produce craftsmen and skilled artisans capable of great patience and precision in the use of words. They create objects that are lovely and durable. Often they use solid, permanent materials such as metal and stone.

If Mars in Taurus is afflicted, there can be a preoccupation with sex and sensuality and an excessive attachment to money and material goods. These people can be jealous and possessive, especially where love and sex are concerned. The violence arising from sexual jealousy with Mars in Taurus can be just as intense as with Mars in Scorpio.

.

mdinaz · Nov 26, 2013

Um - I use Placidus.

I never found Mars in Taurus to be so bad. Yeah it slows down the energy of Mars but allows for great stability, determination, and constitution. I find Mars in Cancer or Pisces or even Libra to be worse, at least for man.

And BTW Tam - I like the chart you posted, that is form I like personally.

Drsendero · Nov 26, 2013

My Mars is in Taurus also. I credit it for giving me a great deal of patience (enough to drive my former wife nuts), perseverance, and stamina. I guess it's a bad position for Mars because Mars' energy is reigned in, focused, less spontaneous, less excitable. So, it's not a positive position from Mars' perspective but it does have some useful qualities, in my humble (and biased) opinion.

Drsendero

Clinton Soule · Nov 26, 2013

MdInez,

I started out using Placidus in the first course I took and that order still teaches with that as a founder wrote the course that way.

http://www.gobookee.org/junior-astrology/

I also started out using outers as co-house rulers in horary which a few are still stuck there! :sad:

The more I study astrology the more I realize how much there is to grow from to nourish our minds of the astro frontier!

The jury of astrologers is still out on the best house to use, it would make a great thread, but it is truly scarry doing a few horaries where the different house systems yield a different cusp when you have a traumatic horary to answer!

I DO NOT wish to be as Lilly's friend, Henry Coley stated in:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/clavis.html

One grand Reason (I suppose) that hath occasioned many ingenious persons to have but low and mean thoughts of Astrology, is this; Viz. There are (and hath been) many ignorant and illiterate Professors of both Sex) in, and about this famous and Flourishing City of London, (whose names I shall not mention) that too confidently adventure to set up with a very small stock of Knowledg in Astrology, for the sake of Gain, and profess themselves Artists, but are not able to perform anything therein according to Art; only stuff their Clyents with many Impertinencies, under pretence of the Language of the Stars, thereby abusing their Querents, and consequently bring a Scandal upon this so excellent and useful a piece of Learning, and the more noble Professors thereof; which hath deterred many persons from the Study of Astrology, that otherwise (perhaps) might have proved good Proficients therein. I speak not this out of any prejudice I have to their Persons, nor in the least to advantage my own Interest, for I am a lover of Art, and those that (without abuse) do use it.

.

mdinaz · Nov 26, 2013

I started in Koch but eventually moved to Placidus. I don't do horary but if I did I would likely use Regiomontanus just because that is the traditional system for horary (I have two of Lilly's astrological almanacs BTW - dated 1672 and 1673). The few times I've done horary that is what I have used. But so far for my charts and transits particularly, Placidus has worked best for me.

I don't use the outer planets for sign rulers, I stick with the traditional and use the outers only for additional information or if I think it is relevant. I appear to be one of the few who makes extensive use the vertex and the four main asteroids, and I have found them incredibly useful and insightful.

Some people like Rahu make extensive use of midpoints - I generally don't except for when delineating Yods or when there are major aspects going on and several important planets are fairly close together but not conjunct. My half cents.

Clinton Soule · Nov 26, 2013

(Julia and Derek Parker)

There is plenty of passion here, and an abundant sex-drive will be expressed with Taurean warmth. Here is a sensuous and affectionate lover who is sometimes possessive. If Mars is unafflicted, there will be plenty of energy, used in a controlled, steady way.

Once anger is aroused, the rage of these subjects is only too obvious. It will take much provocation to reach this state, for Taurean patience will steady the Martian influence; but, because Mars quickens action, once their adrenalin is flowing those angry and heated feelings will be shown in no uncertain terms. These people must understand that, while such outbursts may be justified, they can cause great damage to those on the receiving end, for their feelings may be expressed far more passionately than they realize.

At its best, this placing adds determination, firmness and the ability to work very hard and tenaciously at both career and spare-time interests. Sometimes these qualities can develop into stubbornness; and Mars will definitely increase it if this trait is indicated elsewhere. In a chart dominated by Earth signs, the more adventurous side of Mars is slowed down, so it is important to look out for any tendency to get stuck in a rut. Overadherence to routine (even with a lively planet such as this) and a Taurean need for emotional and financial security will both be evident. A great deal of energy will be spent in making and spending money.

This is a marvellous placing for those who participate in heavy team games or the heavier sports in general - boxing, wrestling or weightlifting, for instance. Thinking of the Venus influence on Taurus, this will be a good, strong placing for a dancer, since discipline and routine are essential for such a profession; and, for the men, a great deal of weightlifting is involved - ballerinas are, after all, very much flesh and blood! The effect on health will be a tendency to feverishness and a vulnerability to throat infections.

mdinaz:

I started in Koch but eventually moved to Placidus. I don't do horary but if I did I would likely use Regiomontanus just because that is the traditional system for horary (I have two of Lilly's astrological almanacs BTW - dated 1672 and 1673). The few times I've done horary that is what I have used. But so far for my charts and transits particularly, Placidus has worked best for me.

Well it's good to hear one has tested the house controversy, and gone back to placidus, interesting, it would or will be an interesting thread when Luna waxes.

It's the tough decision like which USA horoscope is the true one, wish I could find her site where those whith their theories could post why they believe what USA horoscope is true by progressions, but it seemed to disappear. What was her name that had that marvelous website on this years ago!

And you are not going to hear this astrologer claim he knows all the reasoning behind why William F. Lilly didn't buy into PLACIDUS, that is a book in itself! :rightful:

JUPITERASC · Nov 27, 2013

TamaraL said:
Whats your experience, with Mars in Taurus (detriment)?
Also my Mars is conjunct Jupiter in 11th house.I 've been told that this aspect needs balance in terms of being a workaholic (physically exhausting your self).
Thank you!
Tam,

A planet in detriment can be seen as self destructive. For example, Ibn Ezra describes a planet in detriment as like a person fighting with himself/herself

fullmoonlibra · Nov 27, 2013

My Mars is exalted, being in capricorn. With sextile to Pluto Scorpio and sextile to Jupiter Pisces. And conjunct Neptune, plus apex of moon mercury T square.
Also my north node ruler.

But I like Mars Taurus people, they are so relaxed and not easy getting angry.
I know two Mars Taurus people. One of them is too relaxed, so he can't get things fixed.. And has indeed material onstructions.
The other one prefers his comfortzone even when he was offered great opportunities to make it big in his career.

Lucid · Nov 27, 2013

Can someone explain how a planet can be both in detriment, yet at the same time make a trine to an exalted planet? I mean, taurus is detriment to scorpio, mars' ruler, but it trines capricorn, it's exaltation. What determines its "weakness" in the sign then?

I think a mars in taurus is just as hard-working, stubborn, persistent mars as cap. The same thing goes for virgo; all mars in earth signs make practical mission-achievers. Conjuncting with jupiter adds an even more energetic vibe to this mars, and the greater the ambition and drive. This is a good position

fullmoonlibra · Nov 27, 2013

I believe that a malefic planet being exalted or dominant only feeds the malefic position..
A violent planet can only do good if it's in peaceful libra or taurus.

I really really like mars libra and taurus people.
And that's not because I have moon libra and sun and venus in taurus, and people with mars libra or taurus make conjunctions to it, but it's because of their peaceful nature.
I find it so sweet that when I get angry a libra mars tries to keep me calm, even if he or she is in her his right..

Blacknight · Nov 27, 2013

Placidus seems like a good system. It's used as the standard anyway. I like whole sign because it's very simple. Each sign is its own house.

Aspects are equally important to sign placements. You might have a weak mars with aspects that help it or the opposite.

I'm still learning a lot. Good luck!!

TamaraL · Nov 27, 2013

Zarathu said:
OK... Mars in in a little bit of detriment. But compared to Saturn and Neptune, its not even close. Saturn is three times more in detriment and Neptune almost twice as much more in detriment.

I'd work on those first, if I were you.

I wasn't aware that Saturn was in detriment (is it Scorpio & Pisces right?)
I am researching it now because its a tricky one.Also I 've been told recently that Neptune & the transpersonal planets do not have detriment or fall etc.
I don't know what to believe. It will take a while to come into a conclusion.

TamaraL · Nov 27, 2013

Zarathu said:
I use the most extensively researched astrological system ever done that goes several orders of magnitude beyond classical debilities and dignities.

Zarathu I don't doubt you or your conclusions. I am just saying that I don't know what to believe at this point. Maybe I should go back to check my chart as a whole before making specific questions on aspects..Thank you for your comments.

JUPITERASC · Nov 27, 2013

Zarathu said:
OK... Mars in in a little bit of detriment

Mars in Taurus is most definitely completely in detriment
and therefore DEBILITATED

As clearly illustrated on the TABLE OF ESSENTIAL DIGNITIES AND DEBILITIES

Zarathu said:
But compared to Saturn and Neptune, its not even close. Saturn is three times more in detriment

Saturn is NOT in detriment

Saturn in Capricorn is in DOMICILE and therefore ESSENTIALLY DIGNIFIED

as clearly illustrated on the TABLE OF ESSENTIAL DIGNITIES AND DEBILITIES

Zarathu said:
...and Neptune almost twice as much more in detriment.

I'd work on those first, if I were you.

A planet is
either
in detriment
or
not in detriment

Neptune is not mentioned in the table of Essential Dignity and Debility

JUPITERASC · Nov 27, 2013

TamaraL said:
Zarathu I don't doubt you or your conclusions. I am just saying that I don't know what to believe at this point. Maybe I should go back to check my chart as a whole before making specific questions on aspects..Thank you for your comments.

TamaraL I have checked your chart

Mars in Taurus is in Detriment
Saturn in Capricorn is in Domicile - i.e. Saturn is at home in Saturn's home Sign, Capricorn

Check the TABLE OF ESSENTIAL DIGNITY AND DEBILITY

Neptune is excluded from THE TABLE OF ESSENTIAL DIGNITY AND DEBILITY AS SHOWN

JUPITERASC · Nov 27, 2013

The Ram said:
Of course it's excluded: that table was created long before Neptune was even discovered.

And astrologers made predictions just fine without it :smile:

Paul_ said:
I'm of the opinion that unless the pre-existing schema for assignation of exaltation is fully understood, we have no reason to 'tinker' by adding in newer planets: On what grounds would we do so if we do not understand its current logic?

Clearly the current logic was not based upon "this planet really really suits this sign" kind of mentality. Therefore I would encourage Element to move away from his rationale.

I agree with whomever mentioned the aversions of the Thema Mundi. But really I'd be inclined to not see Neptune as ruling Pisces either so I'm not sure how popular that theory would be. I think I'm saying the same thing as Dr Farr (if I understand him properly) and would say that the modern planets may have some affinity with certain signs - I just do not think that the affinity is to rule over the sign, and to have domicile dignity therefore in that sign.

I see some connections with Neptune and Pisces, it is true, and also see some with Pluto and Scorpio. I tend to see more connections with Uranus and Aries tbh, but I'm not advocating anyone else follow that mentality of course. It is just that I see Neptune as a 'blending' quality, and Uranus as having an 'individuating' or 'separative' quality that suits my understanding of Aries.

TamaraL · Nov 27, 2013

Thanks Jupiterasc & The Ram, for your comments.

I started the thread wanted to discuss Mars in detriment & actually I realized Neptune could be in detriment as well. (Its always interesting to read everyone's opinion, thats the whole point of starting a thread & being in forum basically!)

I searched a bit on the forum and I found some relevant threads on Neptune's debility:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=519189&posted=1#post519189

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52655

So from what I read online Neptune is in detriment in Virgo & some also consider Neptune in Capricorn as fall.
So probably maybe this is the topic for a new thread because there are many opinions on this one...

Clinton Soule · Nov 27, 2013

TamaraL, try this style with fewer aspect lines the other is just toooo hard to read with so many lines: can't understand why astro.com even has it there as it so hard to read for some of us, just preference!

Someone may have tried to enlarge the below horoscope example, which if NO ONE enlarges it or tries to calculate another chart it stays indefinitely; and the ADDDITIONAL TABLES(PDF) and Ephemerides from this page is needed in many threads for planetary speeds!

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?c...fix=1;ast=2063&nhor=1&cid=obdfileq0CIJr-u1385597928

See how easy it is to NOTE the main aspect lines without millions of lines hitting our brains like we were viewing a Picasso or Van Gough painting?

I mean look how scrambled up this horoscope is in that unlike the planets in inner wheel the planets are outside the wheel, soooo amateurish, why and who is doing this! ARGGGGHH!!!!!!!!!! :w00t:

I realize there are those who relish modern art but this classic painter will always be remembered for the beauty of his work:

My point is the first horoscope is easier to read by most of us, yet some may like others, but it is so much more a horoscope of clarity and beauty unlike the Chart Lilly used in the 1600s below, that most consider hard to read today,.... or it may have been a preference today which it is NOT!

(Robert Hand)

You work carefully and rather slowly; but your results are almost always good, because your thoroughness makes up for lack of speed. You are also quite stubborn, and will resist anyone's efforts to speed you up or change your direction. You are not a quitter, and will stick to any task until it is done.

You have a strong desire to own things; and your possessions are very important to you. if you decide you want something, you will work very hard to get it. The only problem is that you may acquire so much stuff that your possessions get in your way. Your room may look like a packrat's nest.

You may have a problem with jealousy, tending to be very possessive of the people you love. You have to allow your friends some independence, or you will lose them. People cannot be owned like objects.

Whenever you work on something creative, you may be rather slow, but your taste and concern with craftsmanship are better than average. Even if you cannot do beautiful work yourself, you will respect others' work.

Anger can be a problem for you, because you have difficulty expressing it until it builds to the point that you lose control. It is all right to express this anger as long as you don't hurt anyone in the process. The problem is that other people may try to take advantage of your apparent patience, not realizing that you are really angry. It is up to you to let them know how you feel.

.

JUPITERASC · Nov 27, 2013

TamaraL said:
Thanks Jupiterasc & The Ram, for your comments.

I started the thread wanted to discuss Mars in detriment & actually I realized Neptune could be in detriment as well. (Its always interesting to read everyone's opinion, thats the whole point of starting a thread & being in forum basically!)

As a beginner you are clearly unaware that detriment is a traditional concept
Furthermore,
on the subject of specifically 'detriment'
there ARE no 'opinions' in Traditional astrology

Planets are in detriment according to Traditional Rules

For comparison
let's take an example from the realm of mathematics,
mathematicians do not have 'opinions' as to whether 1 + 1 = 2

Quite simply for Traditional Astrologers planets are considered in detriment only as shown on a Traditional Table of Dignities and Debilities

Detriment is a Debility

TABLE OF DIGNITY AND DEBILITY

Mars in detriment?

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