Backwards Engineer

Rayek

Rayek

Well-known member
This has been posted on more than one forum. The goal is not to accurately find the date but to actively discuss the key words, phrases, and information gathered in order to find the date. Any information or insights that you contribute will only serve to help.


[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]The test of an Astrologer is not in their ability to show people who they are, but in their ability to put their experience and knowledge to the test.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]I don't know how well this is going to go over, but I hope like heck that everyone latches on to it with the same ferocity that I would.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]Personally, I am less interested in what things mean and intensely more interested in figuring out ways to prove it. There are a ton of people out there with a ton more experience than I in what things mean, how things work together, and what it could show. For me, it's more important to learn how to find this stuff rather than learn how to read it myself (though I do still enjoy learning it myself).

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]So today I present you with a challenge.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]I asked for volunteers in my group of friends to send me their Birthdate, Time, and place... and had them fill out a set of questions. From these questions, I ask you as a community (not individuals), to discuss and find their date and time of birth.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]Since I am still a novice when it comes to Astrology, I understand that my questions may not be good ones. My attempt was to ask a question directly related to each planet, and hope that each of the answers would relate to the sign, any aspects, and the house it's situated. I ask you, that while you are attempting to find the date and time of birth to also discuss a series of 10 other questions you would like answered from the volunteer. These questions must be agreed on by the majority of the community before I send them to the volunteer... so please, don't waste them. Try and find the date/time, and use the questions to fill in the gaps.

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[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]I will consider it successful if you can find the date and the time within a 4 hour time frame.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]I choose this volunteer specifically because I do not know her personally and felt her answers had some key phrases that might make it easier. If this goes over well, I have a few others that people could play around with.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]These are the instructions I sent:
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana][FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]quote:[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]I understand that these can be some extremely personal questions to answer, but I need them all answered as honestly as possible. Basically it's an all or nothing type deal.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]In answering, you are agreeing that it is OK for me to post your answers on a public forum in order to continue with this project. You are also agreeing to answer follow up questions that I may send.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]Your name will never be revealed publicly, and after the project is completed I will send you a link to the forum with the information. Should you find it before then, I do ask that you do not participate in the project or that will just mess it all up. XD[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]After any question that doesn't specifically request an example, if you choose, a personal example would be helpful (but not necessary).[/FONT]
​
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]The questions and answers will be in the following post.[/FONT]
 
Rayek

Rayek

Well-known member
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]??, 1991. Dunedin, Florida. ?? EST. - Female

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]1. Describe yourself in any way you wish, at any length.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]Creative, cynical, witty, wise.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]2. Tell me about any emotional event in your life and how it effected you internally.
and
Do you find it easy or difficult to relate to your emotions?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]Today, my dad is coming home from prison. I haven't seen him in years. I'm aware that I should feel excited, or sad, or anything at all, but the truth is, I'm feigning any emotions. I know I definitely don't want him to stay, and I definitely would rather him be here, but my emotions work in a weird way. I know it's a positive feeling, but I'm numb. Unless it's a sense of complete urgency, where anger or fear would need to be an immediate response for a survivalist reason, I sometimes don't know how major events affect me until years down the line. So I would say I never really know how anything affects me internally until long after it's happened, and I'm quiet about it. The same thing happened when my mother had a heart attack just several days ago. I handled it the same way.
I would say it's neither easy nor difficult to relate to my emotions because it's an organic process that occurs essentially without my knowledge. I keep a cooler head no matter what, and automatically wind up in leadership roles based on my ability to do so.[/FONT]
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[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]3. Do you find it easy or difficult to communicate your thoughts and ideas to people?
and
Do you find it easy or difficult to understand complex concepts that people attempt to explain to you?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]Most often, I'm excellent at communicating my thoughts and ideas to people, but I won't even bother doing it unless my thought or idea is the most effective or has the most factual correctness and logic behind it. I don't find it difficult to understand complex concepts that people try to explain to me, as long as they're about sensical things. If someone tries to explain their own complex thought process to me, I become lost if it isn't an efficient way to think.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]4. What does love mean to you?
and
What types of things (objects or actions) do you like that is relatively unique to you?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]Love is the ultimate friendship with a member of the sex you find attractive. Love is NOT having to be up someone's *** constantly, or worrying about losing someone or being cheated on. Unless you have that ultimate comfortable state where you're not worried about loss, abuse, or infidelity, that's what love is.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]What types of things, objects or actions do I like that is relatively unique to me? Since this was under the love category, I'm going to assume it's intended to mean in a love situation. I would say that my perfect kind of date is Taco Bell and a movie in bed. Love should be an escape from your every day stresses and your partner should be able to see you both at your best and your worst and be accepting of you in both ways.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]If this doesn't have to do specifically with the love category, I like victorian medical antiques, collecting insects, coffee table sized art books, authentic foreign food, and unique literature.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]5. How motivated of a person are you?
and
When you become angry, how do you relate to that feeling?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]I'm very motivated as long as it's for an important reason.
Anger is usually an immediate response to something, and if it's a problem or something that needs to be fixed, I handle it on the spot so that I don't have to revisit the issue or situation.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]6. If you were to abbreviate your personal ethic system into a saying or thought, how would you do so?
and
Describe a situation where you felt a personal growth in yourself or your belief structure.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]Eat the rich. Art is a religion. First do no harm.
I can't isolate a single situation where I felt personal growth in my belief structure. It's evolved this way, and as time has passed without it ceasing to work for me, I've kept it.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]7. How would you define responsibility?
and
Do you consider yourself a responsible person?
and
How often do you suffer from depressive tendencies?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]I would define responsibility, essentially as independence. If you are irresponsible, you need to be codependent on someone who isn't.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]I do consider myself a responsible person.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]I only suffer from depressive tendencies related to hormones, but I'm able to rationalize them as they arise.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]8. If you were to describe one aspect of yourself that is different from what you view to be normal, what would it be?
and
What type of activities do you find to be the most thrilling, exciting, or reckless?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]I think that the least normal thing about me is my overwhelming desire to be inhuman. That sounds alarming at first. I don't want to be an animal, or a mythical creature. I just want to evolve into the next step above human, because I feel like staying here is weighing me down.
Here's where I start to sound boring. I find bargain hunting to be thrilling and exciting. I find exploring abandoned buildings with dark history behind them to be all three. Ultimately, as you can see, it varies across the board.[/FONT]
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[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]9. Describe briefly your idea of romance, and how important it is in your life?
and
Do you find yourself indulging in fantasies often (daydreams or actively)?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]Romance is not at all important to me. I would say that love is significant, but love and romance are significantly different concepts in my eyes. To me, romance is something unrealistic and childish. There are so many romance fiction novels because you'll never find a nonfiction situation in which "romance" has actually been the way that it's often portrayed to be. I think you would have to lack the ability to express emotions properly and effectively if you're a "hopeless romantic" type.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]I do find myself indulging in fantasies when I lay down to sleep or nap, but seldom to never do they involve love.[/FONT]
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[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]10. How easy or difficult is it for you to handle major change?
and
What is your personal definition of obsession?
and
Have you ever obsessed over something, if so, what?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]It depends on the change. If it's necessary than I absolutely embrace it. If there are other ways to effectively handle a situation that don't involve drastic measure, then I resent excessively wasting effort for an unnecessary change.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]An obsession is a strong preference about something that dictates how you live your life and what decisions you make.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]I have an obsessive tendency about the way things are packaged. If I feel they're packaged inefficiently, I will refuse to buy or use them. This is an obsession that effects my job, but not in a way that's difficult to work around.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]11. How do other people in general view you as a person?
and
What is your opinion of their view?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]Opinions of me are all across the board. Those who have negative views of me tend to be people that everyone would agree are not very good people, and they dislike me because if they try to become involved in my life, I don't hesitate to tell them that I want no part of what they're about.
People who have positive opinions of me tend to be generally good people with good intentions.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]I don't have an opinion of anyone's view. That's their view. If they don't like me, I don't care about them. If they do like me, then that's wonderful.[/FONT]
 
Rayek

Rayek

Well-known member
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]Aprox placements for 1991[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]Mercury
Jan 1 - Jan 13 - Sagittarius
Jan 14 - Feb 4 - Capricorn
Feb 5 - Feb 23 - Aquarius
Feb 24 - Mar 10 - Pisces
Mar 11 - May 15 - Aries
May 16 - Jun 4 - Taurus
Jun 5 - Jun 18 - Gemini
Jun 19 - Jul 3 - Cancer
Jul 4 - Jul 25 - Leo
Jul 26 - Aug 18 - Virgo
Aug 19 - Sep 9 - Leo
Sep 10 - Sep 27 - Virgo
Sep 28 - Oct 14 - Libra
Oct 15 - Nov 3 - Scorpio
Nov 4 - Dec 31 - Sagittarius[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]
Venus
Jan 1 - Jan 4 - Capricorn
Jan 5 - Jan 28 - Aquarius
Jan 29 - Feb 21 - Pisces
Feb 22 - Mar 17 - Aries
Mar 18 - Apr 12 - Taurus
Apr 13 - May 8 - Gemini
May 9 - Jun 5 - Cancer
Jun 6 - Jul 10 - Leo
Jul 11 - Aug 20 - Virgo
Nov 9 - Dec 5 - Libra
Dec 6 - Dec 30 - Scorpio
Dec 31 - Sagittarius[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]
Mars
Jan 1 - Jan 21 - Gemini
Jan 22 - Apr 3 - Cancer
April 4 - May 26 - Leo
July 16 - Sept 1 - Libra
Sept 2 - Oct 15 - Scorpio
Oct 16 - Nov 29 - Sagittarius
Nov 30 - Dec 31 - Capricorn[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]
Jupiter
Jan 1 - Sept 11 - Leo
Sept 12 - Dec 31 - Virgo[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]
Saturn
Jan 1 - Feb 7 - Capricorn
Feb 8 - Dec 31 - Aquarius[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]
Uranus
Capricorn[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]
Neptune
Capricorn[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]
Pluto
Scorpio[/FONT]
 
Moog

Moog

Well-known member
This is very interesting, but I think way too challenging for me, and probably most people on the board.

How about instead of giving us the whole year to drown in, you post a selection of possible charts (3 or 5 perhaps?), and we do the detective work to figure out which chart belongs to the questioned person?

Same thing, just not quite so difficult.
 
Rayek

Rayek

Well-known member
I'm hesitant about supplying charts, because it would narrow the selection down from 1/365 chance (for date) to a much smaller selection. It would put into question whether or not it was backwards engineered or simply a good guess and group think. That wouldn't accomplish what I need, even if it means failing to find people who can help. :(

What I'm interested in is to see if people as a community can take their combined knowledge and find pieces of the chart and work together to find the date. I'm not looking for any one person to find the date/time, but a group effort. But, because it seems like such a daunting task, it's been difficult to find people who are interested.

Every Astrologer has a strong suit. Some are good at determining signs, some are good at determining aspects, some are good at determining houses, etc. So, if it looks a little overwhelming... try instead to focus on something small, something that pops out at you, something that you would be confident in saying about what you read. Keep in mind, you may (as a group) ask the volunteer 10 more questions.

And explain your reasoning. (Most important part, because your reasoning could be the key to repeating the process effectively).

Like I said, I posted it somewhere else too awhile back. At least here I got a few people who thought it was an interesting idea. Thank you for that. <3
 
Rayek

Rayek

Well-known member
Although if this doesn't get enough interest, I might try posting a:

match these answers with their charts type thing since you've asked for a simpler version. I'd prefer this though... because it's more thorough.

You've already made my day!
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Rayek, there is a similar exercise over on skyscript forum where members are challenged to identify a "Mystery Chart" here is a link to a recent such 'exercise' http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6618:smile:
Rayek said:
I'm hesitant about supplying charts, because it would narrow the selection down from 1/365 chance (for date) to a much smaller selection. It would put into question whether or not it was backwards engineered or simply a good guess and group think. That wouldn't accomplish what I need, even if it means failing to find people who can help. :(

What I'm interested in is to see if people as a community can take their combined knowledge and find pieces of the chart and work together to find the date. I'm not looking for any one person to find the date/time, but a group effort. But, because it seems like such a daunting task, it's been difficult to find people who are interested.

Every Astrologer has a strong suit. Some are good at determining signs, some are good at determining aspects, some are good at determining houses, etc. So, if it looks a little overwhelming... try instead to focus on something small, something that pops out at you, something that you would be confident in saying about what you read. Keep in mind, you may (as a group) ask the volunteer 10 more questions.

And explain your reasoning. (Most important part, because your reasoning could be the key to repeating the process effectively).

Like I said, I posted it somewhere else too awhile back. At least here I got a few people who thought it was an interesting idea. Thank you for that. <3
Click to expand...
 
Rayek

Rayek

Well-known member
Astrologers know how to make A+B=C A=Chart B=What people say C=What Astrologers know about Astrology. It stands to reason that Astrologers can make C-B=A. You just need to not get overwhelmed, and learn to ask the right questions. So, if you're willing to do an easier experiment... then bare with me to answer simplified questions.

Each question represents a planet.

Because this is text, Mercury is most prominent. It may be easier to start there, but then again, Jupiter and Saturn only have two options, so it might be easier to start there.

Pick one of the three, Mercury, Jupiter (as represented by question 6) or Saturn (as represented by question 7).

1. Is the planet that you picked represented by masculine energy (positive) or feminine energy (negative)?
2. Is the planet that you picked represented by Cardinal, Fixed or Mutable? (Leader, organizer, communicator).
3. Is the planet that you picked represented by Fire, Earth, Air, Water?

For Saturn, based on the answers to those three questions. Is her Saturn: Capricorn or Aquarius

For Jupiter, based on the answers to those three questions. Is her Jupiter: Leo or Virgo.

If you did both Saturn and Jupiter, look at the dates for your answers, is it possible that your answers are correct?
___
For the people who did Mercury rather than Saturn or Jupiter. Find the sign that fits the answers to your three questions.

From the key words you know about that sign, have you seen those same key words (or similar) in her answers?

Find the dates that your chosen Mercury is possible.
 
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Rayek

Rayek

Well-known member
sandstone said:
hi rayek,

i think i see what you are trying to do.. correct me if i am wrong.. you appear to be trying to find the essence of those 3 categories you listed in a persons words. mostly you appear to be looking for planet in a sign connections.. when someone who has been into astrology for a long time looks at a chart they make all kinds of considerations, with planets in signs being only 1 part - an important part) but only 1 of many considerations.. planets in houses will change the nature of the way the energy gets expressed as will planets in aspect to other planets..

i think you might get further exploring an approach similar to the one that jupiterasc shared with you from skyscript... that said, i continue to be curious to see where you go with this!
Click to expand...

Please forgive me, I like to talk. :love:

You are absolutely correct on both accounts (my attempt and the problem with the approach). But the reasoning behind why I wish to stay away from the approach that was shared is the reasoning behind my motives. If I can find a way to get this to work, then it will set the stage for more efficient ways to backwards engineer astrology in a solid and repeatable manner using a wide variety of information (not just words/questions/etc).

If we can achieve that, then it could change the face of... well... the world.

The future steps in determining the date will address the problem of aspects and houses. There are a ton of considerations to take into account, but when working like this you have start by ignoring those considerations and look at the data that you do have... then work your way up from there, apply each consideration as it comes. While the houses and aspect do change the nature of the planet/sign configuration, it doesn't change it's core essence... so the information is still valid to a varying degree.

The next steps would be to look for Mars, then Venus based on the questions. Each time looking to see if the dates that are provided fall within the correct parameters.

Understanding that with each piece of information you find, all prior information must be examined and possibly changed. All the while writing out your "proof", or explaining why you assume the information.

If certain information proves to not be valid, then your explanation could very well point to a house or aspect that you will discover in the next steps.

From there, you should have narrowed down a few possible month or so long dates. They may be completely off base, but it's a start.

Skip the moon for the moment, the moon confines those dates too much at this point.

Now you look for possible connections, specifically conjunctions. Do key words or phrases pop up in certain questions that apply to a different planet? If so, what are they? These may not be conjunctions, but clues to the houses or other aspects, but they're easier to find if you are searching for conjunctions.

Do those markers apply to the information you have already gathered? For example, since you were looking for conjunctions, does the assumptions you've made about the signs reflect the fact that they may be conjunctions? If yes, then you are probably correct... if not, then what alternative could those patterns relate to? Don't go too in to depth with the later question or you will risk getting bogged down.

Moving on.

At this point you should have a basic idea of when you think they were born, based on your idea of what their Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto is... as well as some possible aspects (though what those aspects are could still be in question).

Based on what you think her Mercury is, you should have a pretty good idea of her Sun sign (within three signs). Based on the other information, you should be able to narrow that Sun sign down to one sign which in turn should narrow the date down even further.

Now that you've narrowed it down, your list of possible Moons should be shortened. Look at the answer from question 2 and at your possible Moon selections. Repeat step 1 with the Moon selections.

Now you should have a date (or a few possible dates) that are between 1 and three days long. And that's a huge step considering you started from 365 days.

This is where it gets tricky, and this is where at this moment I personally can't figure out how to get further in narrowing down the date. Although once the date is narrowed down to one day the steps to finding a time is relatively easy.


To being finding the time, don't start by trying to find the ASC.

Since you should know the date, or at least the date your working with, find patterns and key phrases that relate to the houses. If you find a key phrase that relates to a house, determine if that key phrase indicates that the planet falls in that house or if it is aspected to a planet that falls into that house.

Look back over your previous information, specifically the areas that you determined were wrong. Is it possible that your assumptions could be pointing to houses? If so, use that information.

If at any time you find something that could relate to two or possibly three different things and you are unable to determine which one could be true, form a question that you would like to ask in a way that should clarify which of your assumptions is true.

Last step; make a reasonable guess.

Even if you are wrong in any of your assumptions, the information that you used to come to those assumptions could be beneficial to others also attempting to find the information. And at the very least, you've honestly tried and thought about it in a new way.

It's win-win.
 
Rayek

Rayek

Well-known member
The above post was suppose to come in pieces, slowly, as people took on each step. Rather than all at once in such an overwhelming manner.

The difference between doing it this way and doing it by choosing charts, or working directly with charts is huge. But it can be done and not only can it be done but this is the only way the scientific community will take it seriously. The odds of a "guess" are so astronomical that if it can be done once this way and repeated with relative accuracy... well, I assume you can understand the implications.

The main problem that I've ran into is:

People aren't interested because it seems too difficult. - But it's not... not if you realize how to break it down into tiny steps. And not if you realize, this is just the beginning, errors will happen. It won't be right the first few times people try it, but each try you will learn how to do it better the next time.

People aren't interested because of the way I present it. - I'm a thinker not a public speaker.

But it's important. It is really really really important. I figured people would just automatically understand that and it would be enough to gain interest. It's disheartening to realize that isn't the case.

I know how to do it, but I need more information... information that I can only get from other people, but I can't get that information because they're off adding A+B. I can teach people how to do it, but I need people willing to try and willing to fail before they succeed.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
IMO Rayek this requires basic insight relating to personal characteristics combined with a facility for communicating those adequately to others... You may find it easy to complete the questionnaire with accuracy - but could everyone?? How reliable is the questionnaire in terms of getting correct/realistic responses to the kinds of questions you asked? :smile:
Rayek said:
The above post was suppose to come in pieces, slowly, as people took on each step. Rather than all at once in such an overwhelming manner.

The difference between doing it this way and doing it by choosing charts, or working directly with charts is huge. But it can be done and not only can it be done but this is the only way the scientific community will take it seriously. The odds of a "guess" are so astronomical that if it can be done once this way and repeated with relative accuracy... well, I assume you can understand the implications.

The main problem that I've ran into is:

People aren't interested because it seems too difficult. - But it's not... not if you realize how to break it down into tiny steps. And not if you realize, this is just the beginning, errors will happen. It won't be right the first few times people try it, but each try you will learn how to do it better the next time.

People aren't interested because of the way I present it. - I'm a thinker not a public speaker.

But it's important. It is really really really important. I figured people would just automatically understand that and it would be enough to gain interest. It's disheartening to realize that isn't the case.

I know how to do it, but I need more information... information that I can only get from other people, but I can't get that information because they're off adding A+B. I can teach people how to do it, but I need people willing to try and willing to fail before they succeed.
Click to expand...
 
Rayek

Rayek

Well-known member
Ok, my Natal Mercury Retrograde is kicking my behind right now. People seem to be having difficulty understanding a concept, therefore I am not explaining it correctly.

JUPITERASC said:
IMO Rayek this requires basic insight relating to personal characteristics combined with a facility for communicating those adequately to others... You may find it easy to complete the questionnaire with accuracy - but could everyone?? How reliable is the questionnaire in terms of getting correct/realistic responses to the kinds of questions you asked? :smile:
Click to expand...

You are completely correct, as of right now the likelyhood of anyone being able to come up with a date and time of birth with accuracy, regardless of the questions or the answers that are given and/or why. Once the system becomes streamlined and enough people insert enough information and get use to the process of thinking backwards, this will not be the case. Rather, once this part of Astrology is implimented by enough people, you should be able to take any information (from answers to any questions to what car they drive) and be able to backwards engineer that information down to their birthdate and time. It's just a matter of practice, not of the individual but of the community as a whole. And when I talk about the future, I'm not talking about next year... quite possibly I'm talking tens to hundreds of years in the future.

But it has to start somewhere.

The best to worst you can do in order:

The Best - Net Positive Benefit
1. Get it right for the correct reasons.
2. Get it wrong but state your reasons for your assumptions.
3. Get it right for the wrong reasons.
4. Get it wrong for the wrong reasons.
5. Get it right but not state your reasons.
6. Get it wrong but not state your reasons.

Stagnation
7. Not try.

Worst - Net Negative Benefit
8. Believe that it can't be done.
9. Believe that it can't be done and perpetuate your belief by stating the reasons why.

It can be done. Maybe not yet, but it can be done. And this is literally the only way that people without the assistance of a supercomputer can suspend reasonable doubt on Astrology for the scientific community as a whole.

The question is, are you willing to help?
Because right now, all I've ran into is Astrologers with a defeatist attitude hovering between 7-9. (With the exception of one insightful woman who hit a 5 on choosing signs but failed to explain why she thought what she did).

So I ask again, based on this:

[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]7. How would you define responsibility?
and
Do you consider yourself a responsible person?
and
How often do you suffer from depressive tendencies?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]I would define responsibility, essentially as independence. If you are irresponsible, you need to be codependent on someone who isn't.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]I do consider myself a responsible person.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]I only suffer from depressive tendencies related to hormones, but I'm able to rationalize them as they arise.[/FONT]
Click to expand...
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]

Do you believe her Saturn is:[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]
Jan 1 - Feb 7 - Capricorn
or
Feb 8 - Dec 31 - Aquarius[/FONT]

Why?
[FONT=Arial, Sans, Verdana]
[/FONT]
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Rayek said:
Ok, my Natal Mercury Retrograde is kicking my behind right now. People seem to be having difficulty understanding a concept, therefore I am not explaining it correctly.
Click to expand...
Rayek this is all too general!

What I think is most interesting regarding your ideas is that you have just said you have a natal Mercury Retrograde...

IMO "Backwards Engineer" is clearly an inspired way of describing the particular way your own natal Mercury Retrograde works for you in your life! Perhaps it is how you yourself are best advised to approach analysis because that is what works for you and that is what is easy for you! :smile:
 
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Rayek

Rayek

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
Rayek this is all too general!

What I think is most interesting regarding your ideas is that you have just said you have a natal Mercury Retrograde...

IMO "Backwards Engineer" is clearly an inspired way of describing the particular way your own natal Mercury Retrograde works for you in your life! Perhaps it is how you yourself are best advised to approach analysis because that is what works for you and that is what is easy for you! :smile:
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I see what you're saying, but I am having a difficult time actually understanding it. And my frustration on the topic is coming out through my writing which is a bit off putting for people too.

The reason I have a hard time is, if there is no consequence for being wrong, why not try? From my point of view, I see excuses (in general where ever I've tried this), but a lack of trying. Obviously when you first started learning Astrology and reading charts there was a ton of information that you didn't take into account... but you kept trying. You may still get it wrong, but you use the information provided plus what you learned to come up with an an idea.

Using the example:

The question asked was related to Saturn. Saturn rules a lot of different things, but the main is responsibility and depression. So the question asked was for information on that subject.

The answer given includes words like "independence" and "rationalize" which are key phrases for Aquarius. Pair that with the fact that out of 365 days, Capricorn is in Saturn for only 38 days in 1991, the chances are this person's Saturn is in Aquarius are expounded.

If Saturn = Aquarius then the dob = (Feb 8 - Dec 31).
The "If" statement may prove to be false as you get more involved, but it's a starting place.

I just cannot comprehend how this is not easy for people, it's just a math problem involving words. I don't think I have the ability to fathom it, but since people seem to say it's difficult, then I need to figure out a way to teach it to people... and I need people to understand how/why it's important so they will be excited to learn and help me learn how to teach it.

But I keep running into walls because I don't know how to do that and my reaction to that is to visualize myself reaching through the computer and shaking some sense into people... which does NOT help. XD It's so frustrating to be able to see how to fix a problem but being helpless to actually do anything about it.
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Rayek said:
The question asked was related to Saturn. Saturn rules a lot of different things, but the main is responsibility and depression. So the question asked was for information on that subject.
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My interest is Hellenistic astrology Rayek and your reduction of Saturn to "ruling mainly responsibility and depression" is unrealistic IMO. :smile: I say that because Vettius Valens has the following comments to make regarding Saturn:

 QUOTE

"Saturn makes serfs and farmers because of its rule over the land, and it causes men to be renters of property, tax farmers, and violent in action. It puts into one’s hands great ranks and distinguished positions, supervisions, management of others’ property, and the fathership of others’ children. Saturn makes bachelors and widows, bereavements, and childlessness."


And that's far from all Vettius Valens has to say re: Saturn!
 
Rayek

Rayek

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
My interest is Hellenistic astrology Rayek and your reduction of Saturn to "ruling mainly responsibility and depression" is unrealistic IMO. :smile: I say that because Vettius Valens has the following comments to make regarding Saturn:

 QUOTE

"Saturn makes serfs and farmers because of its rule over the land, and it causes men to be renters of property, tax farmers, and violent in action. It puts into one’s hands great ranks and distinguished positions, supervisions, management of others’ property, and the fathership of others’ children. Saturn makes bachelors and widows, bereavements, and childlessness."


And that's far from all Vettius Valens has to say re: Saturn!
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I find your definition of Saturn as equally as puzzling and confusing. Are your key words and descriptions of the attributes for signs as unusually different? If you were to ask a question to get an extremely generalized idea of where a person's Saturn is... what question would you ask?

Since you study a different branch of Astrology, I can understand what you're trying to say. But, basing my judgment solely on the above quote (read as: incredibly bias), you're way seems very inefficient. Or maybe just like a different language. I wouldn't be able to expect someone who speaks Spanish to take a test written in English.

The thing is, most of the Astrology websites that I've went through... as well as the books... use the system that I based the questions off of. So, while I can now understand why you personally wouldn't see the patterns (it's a different language)... I still don't see why people who learned via most main stream education purposes wouldn't be able to see.

Differing Astrological styles are the exception, but Astrological styles are not differing per individual, rather groups of people. The way people learn is individualized... some people will be better at seeing aspects, some better at seeing houses, some better at seeing signs... but, that's also why one person alone (at least for now) shouldn't be able to find the entire date.

...man, and even when I TRY to write a short post it turns into a book. lol
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Rayek said:
I find your definition of Saturn as equally as puzzling and confusing. Are your key words and descriptions of the attributes for signs as unusually different? If you were to ask a question to get an extremely generalized idea of where a person's Saturn is... what question would you ask?

...man, and even when I TRY to write a short post it turns into a book. lol
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My personal understand of astrology means I would not approach that question in the way that you have Rayek.

As I have mentioned, IMO its related to your natal Mercury Retrograde and your being absorbed by the idea of "Backwards Engineering" working in this particular way.

IMO also, your reliance on all individuals automatically having the requisite self-understanding to choose accurately from minimal keywords is optimistic - but that's just my opinion :smile:
 
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