Astrology says that woman are submissive!?

I have read wonderfull articles about the signs on scribd.
It was not about aspects between planets, planets in houses,...

But about the deep meaning of a sign in a planet.

For example:

People with sun in aries have troubles with their father.
So actually the sun in aries works like sun square mars.

Mars in gemini (in womens chart): feeling attracted to men with gemini qualities or having fights with gemini -people.

Moon in cancer (in mens chart): marrying to a cancerian woman or having a cancerian mother.


After reading these kind of stuff, (especially the last moon example) I was thinking about what the meaning of the Sun in womens chart is...

Following this method to look at astrology, women are submissive to their fathers and husbands.
Because when having their sun sign in any sign, they relate to their fathers and husbands with their whole personality..
So even not submissive, they identify themself with their husband..
Think about the fact that women want to change their husbands personality.
Or about women who want to clothe like twins.


So for example, a woman who has her sun sign in capricorn has a father who has capricorn qualities and she looks for these qualities in his husband too (nice to know that this is scientifical prooven!)
But because it is the sun in this sign, she wants to fuse with his husband, she can't see herself disconnected. And that's the reason why woman have more difficulties then a man when seperating. Because men go further with their lives (their wifes are moon - related, so their personality is not affected), but women suffer more, loosing the sun is like loosing a father, loosing herself. Not knowing what is going to happen to her after the separation..

This is just my theory. I like to hear your comments.
I think this is worth a discussion.

Your analysis has a lot of validity to it (in my opinion) However, a woman COULD be signified by the Sun, or by Mars, or by Jupiter, and/or influenced by a potent fixed star such as Bellatrix; these situations-not uncommon by the way-can override the "general" or "usual" significance/significator indications as you have outlined them in your above post.

fullmoonlibra said:

I have read wonderfull articles about the signs on scribd.
It was not about aspects between planets, planets in houses,...

But about the deep meaning of a sign in a planet.

For example:

People with sun in aries have troubles with their father.
So actually the sun in aries works like sun square mars.

Mars in gemini (in womens chart): feeling attracted to men with gemini qualities or having fights with gemini -people.

Moon in cancer (in mens chart): marrying to a cancerian woman or having a cancerian mother.


After reading these kind of stuff, (especially the last moon example) I was thinking about what the meaning of the Sun in womens chart is...

Following this method to look at astrology, women are submissive to their fathers and husbands.
Because when having their sun sign in any sign, they relate to their fathers and husbands with their whole personality..
So even not submissive, they identify themself with their husband..
Think about the fact that women want to change their husbands personality.
Or about women who want to clothe like twins.


So for example, a woman who has her sun sign in capricorn has a father who has capricorn qualities and she looks for these qualities in his husband too (nice to know that this is scientifical prooven!)
But because it is the sun in this sign, she wants to fuse with his husband, she can't see herself disconnected. And that's the reason why woman have more difficulties then a man when seperating. Because men go further with their lives (their wifes are moon - related, so their personality is not affected), but women suffer more, loosing the sun is like loosing a father, loosing herself. Not knowing what is going to happen to her after the separation..

This is just my theory. I like to hear your comments.
I think this is worth a discussion.

Click to expand...

That's interesting... I have Libra Sun, and my Father has Libra Moon. I also have Leo rising, and my father has Leo sun
My moon in Pisces and my sister's are from my mother's rising (Pisces).

About guys I don't know... My man has Sun in Sag/ Venus, As, jupiter in Scorpio... Moon in Cancer, and Mars in Libra... I have venus in SAG, Moon in Pisces, Mars and Sun in Libra, Jupiter in Cancer... and I have leo rising So I don't know...

Whatever psychologists, sociologists and biologists, etc say, astrology says that women and men have access to the same archetypal energies, because we all have the same planets and signs, and there isn't to my knowledge a tendency for particular chart placements in the charts of either gender.

Although I'm male, but I know women are not entirely submissive and can be independent people whom aren't relying on anyone, especially males. Some women may feel more feminine (I read the astrological data known to impact women's relationships with males in family and marriage), but other women take pride of their womanhood without subjecting to gender roles or what traditional but not accurate belief systems on where women should be in "their place" of society.

My own mother, female relatives and a few friends I had dislike the idea a woman must depend on men or others for emotional or economic support, and anybody reminding them to be "stay at home wives/moms" is taken to be offensive and insensitive. They happen to be center-left in the political spectrum and/or registered Democrats, even they are professing Christian but not in a dogmatic sense to be reminded on women's role made by God to be mothers, but no woman should be denied their civil rights as people, regardless of their natural gender identity.

Modern day feminism objects to stereotypes, social engineered gender roles or the use of religion in many women's cultures they're brought up in to determine their personal lives and fates based on gender discrimination, not because of the gender they were born to. An oppressive system not just astrological influences can limit a woman's life: she can't pursue a career outside the home, and must marry or stay married to a man who promise to "protect her" from the outside world, are messages propagated to women without question and based on falsehoods from ancient times.

Not so fast!

Astrology developed in ancient times, on up through today. During most of its history (except in a few cultures) women in a given social class were expected to be submissive to men of the same or higher social class. So, for example, a woman from a royal family didn't have to be submissive to men who were not her social equals. But for a poor woman throughout most of recorded history, the cost of not staying "in her place" could be physical violence or the threat of violence. You still see this in some countries today, where "honour killings" still happen; or where women do not have the right to initiate a divorce even if the husband beats her.

Astrology is a product of human culture so we shouldn't expect it to be radically different from the societies in which it develops. As recently as the early 20th century, astrologers were writing about the sun in a woman's chart indicating the kind of man she hoped to marry!!

But this cuts several ways. The sun would also indicate the ruler or one's father in a man's chart. Does this make him submissive? This might have made sense in a patriarchal, tribal sort of society. If a girl's father dies and she is on her own at an early age as a single, how would the sun stand for her father? He's not there for her to submit to.

Thankfully fewer and fewer women have to operate submissively today. Since the 2nd-wave feminist revolution of ca. 1970,moreover, we find astrology adapting to new social realities and also indicating equality for men and women. (Apparently true even of neo-traditional astrology.)

Astrology has changed accordingly. Certainly one could look at the sun in a woman's chart (day birth) to learn something about her father. But today, a modern astrologer would also see the sun as the woman's own identity, not a family member's. A woman who has just successfully climbed Mount Everest, managed a Fortune 500 comany, or gotten re-elected as a US Senator probably does not have "submission" on her priority list.

I think your astrological delineations are OK, yet each of them is subject to question.

The sun is exalted in Aries. If it is well aspected, why would it indicate father-difficulties? Moreover, a sun square Mars operates differently than a sun opposite Mars. A woman with Mars in Gemini might get along just fine with men and enjoy cross-training and pentathalons if her Mars is well-situated. My ex-husband's moon is in Cancer, yet I have no planets or sensitive points in Cancer; and his mother's sun is in Pisces.

I should also point out that a horoscope, strictly speaking, is neither male nor female. You don't know whether it belongs to a man or a woman unless you have collateral information about the person. That says a lot to me about how astrologers should think about gender roles.

Also, you can look at the MC/IC axis and/or Saturn (night birth) for further information about Dad. These are not such key personal identity points. Then traditional astrology took your ascendant to be "the real you" (or a Asc/moon blend) not the sun.

miquar said:

Whatever psychologists, sociologists and biologists, etc say, astrology says that women and men have access to the same archetypal energies, because we all have the same planets and signs, and there isn't to my knowledge a tendency for particular chart placements in the charts of either gender.

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Agreed. This is misogynistic BS. Also I'm a Libra Sun and despite having Mars in Libra, my dad is as far away from Libra as you can get.

I do have Sun square Uranus though, and using Sun as a symbol for the father, I've read that it can indicate a strict father and a person who wants to rebel and be the exact opposite of who their father is - which is true in my case. I generally think 10th house is a better indicator of the father though or even Saturn - my Saturn is in the 10th house which I think gives me a very strict father

Hi craft94. Keep in mind though that you are predisposed to look for differences between you and your father because of the Sun Uranus square, and also because Saturn is an energy which ultimtely needs to establish it's own standards rather than conform. You may find that your father does display Libran traits and that you there are some similarities between his and your expression of Libra.

This is partly why astrology can be so useful- it raises these pertinent questions which can lead to the arising of unexpected awareness.

Libra can try to achieve shared understanding with others by trying to impose its personal viewpoint on people, rather than by genuinely trying to reach a concensus. The Saturn and Uranus energies in your father, when operating from a position of insecurity, may tend to cling to a particular notion of a 'higher order' of one sort or another, rather than allowing the feelings of vulnerability which come with the acknowledgement that the notion is incomplete. And it is likely that you inherited some of this type of insecurity.

Anyway, these are just some thoughts that may be worth reflecting on...

Best wishes

Miquar

I don't know what kind of sites you've been checking. Sun in Aries = Bad relationship with the father is one of the weirdest things I've ever read

miquar said:

Hi craft94. Keep in mind though that you are predisposed to look for differences between you and your father because of the Sun Uranus square, and also because Saturn is an energy which ultimtely needs to establish it's own standards rather than conform. You may find that your father does display Libran traits and that you there are some similarities between his and your expression of Libra.

This is partly why astrology can be so useful- it raises these pertinent questions which can lead to the arising of unexpected awareness.

Libra can try to achieve shared understanding with others by trying to impose its personal viewpoint on people, rather than by genuinely trying to reach a concensus. The Saturn and Uranus energies in your father, when operating from a position of insecurity, may tend to cling to a particular notion of a 'higher order' of one sort or another, rather than allowing the feelings of vulnerability which come with the acknowledgement that the notion is incomplete. And it is likely that you inherited some of this type of insecurity.

Anyway, these are just some thoughts that may be worth reflecting on...

Best wishes

Miquar

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My father is a Leo with a Cap Moon and I feel like I always have to try really hard to get him to see another person's point of view. He acts as if he's incapable of empathy (but say that to him and Leo he is he'll get defensive and yell at you, "I'm very empathetic.") Good example: he believes that people who don't follow his religion are sinners...which even at 4 years old did not make sense to me, because people are born into different cultures and taught different things - why would God put them on another part of the planet if that alone would make them "sin"? Doesn't make sense.

However, even if he did act like a Libra, I disagree with the fundamental principle that "women are submissive" and that the Sun represents the father and husband as opposed to the individual personality.

We can't be certain about the reason for the Traditional Sign-rulerships. Ptolemy was speculating when he designed his version, and it's a neat, compelling pattern. Unfortunately, he relied VERY heavily on gender differences. I discerned Traditional rulership-patterns before I became aware of Ptolemy, and it didn't even occur to me to use gender for that purpose. Cultural factors are why gender appears to matter in Astrology. I don't believe it's woven into the warp and woof of Astrology itself.

craft94 said:

My father is a Leo with a Cap Moon and I feel like I always have to try really hard to get him to see another person's point of view. He acts as if he's incapable of empathy (but say that to him and Leo he is he'll get defensive and yell at you, "I'm very empathetic.") Good example: he believes that people who don't follow his religion are sinners...which even at 4 years old did not make sense to me, because people are born into different cultures and taught different things - why would God put them on another part of the planet if that alone would make them "sin"? Doesn't make sense.

However, even if he did act like a Libra, I disagree with the fundamental principle that "women are submissive" and that the Sun represents the father and husband as opposed to the individual personality.

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Hi. Would be interesting to see yours and your father's charts (and also your mother's) and to know more about your relationship with - and psychological inheritance from - him, but this is probably too involved to attempt on a forum.

Best wishes

Mike

miquar said:

Hi. Would be interesting to see yours and your father's charts (and also your mother's) and to know more about your relationship with - and psychological inheritance from - him, but this is probably too involved to attempt on a forum.

Best wishes

Mike

Click to expand...

Well, there's always PM

Good timing too because I've decided that after today, I'm not going to talk to my family anymore.

fullmoonlibra said:

After reading these kind of stuff, (especially the last moon example) I was thinking about what the meaning of the Sun in womens chart is...

Following this method to look at astrology, women are submissive to their fathers and husbands.
Because when having their sun sign in any sign, they relate to their fathers and husbands with their whole personality..

Click to expand...

I don't see it that way talking about general theory. And I don't see it in the connection with the Sun and the Moon archetype.

But I am sure and it is also my experience that astrological interpretations reflect individual personal beliefs and this personal beliefs can be sometimes very patriarchal, they can reflect even mysoginy.

Sigh.....

Or, we could just see people as people. Minus binaries like benefic and malefic.

In astrology, Jupiter as the greater benefic was named for the very masculine king of the gods. The benefic part also had to do with a planet's perceived qualities of heat and moisture. Mars was malefic, for example, because it was excessively hot and dry, and thus inimical to plant growth.

But people are highly complex and complicated. As is a horoscope. Astrology is systematic but you don't have to do it in a binary way that obscures more than it explains.

The world isn't just black-and-white. We have all sorts of colours.

Gender has no place in true Astrology, except as it applies to cultural norms. Yin and Yang is about darkness and light and sending and receiving, not female and male. It's possible to both oversimplify and overcomplicate.

Alimal said:

Ying and Yang simply represents duality, the one division.

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The first division, not the only division. Start with the basics, and build on that. Yin and Yang are also about the uniting of opposites. Astrology involves the Magnetic field, wherein opposite poles attract.

Alimal said:

Ying/Yang does stand for one division.

You can build on abstract divisions all you want, but that doesn't change the basis - which is the one.

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Yin/Yang stands for the uniting of opposites.

Since G*d is ever-Present, they are always united. Separation from G*d causes the illusion of division.