Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

tsmall, thanks for your kind words.

I think it is pretty well established that the principal ancient cultures that practiced some form of astrology had ideas about their gods in place before they ascribed planets to them.

A good example is ancient Greece. The planet we called Mercury was earlier called Stilbon, meaning gleaming or glittering. Pyeroeis, "the fiery one" was the planet Mars. The Greeks thought of them as minor gods, whose parents were Titans. https://www.greeklegendsandmyths.com/the-astra-planeta.html

The Greeks did not practice astrology until it was introduced by a Babylonian priest and historian, Berrosus, who lived in the early 3rd century BCE. It is well known that Greek and Roman mythology borrowed heavily from the Babylonians, so about this time, the planets took on the names and tutelage of the planetary gods familiar to us today.The attributes of the Babylonian planetary god Nabu (Nebo) were assimilated to Hermes/Mercury

Meanwhile, Homer and Hesiod (7th/8th century BCE) were writing about the Greek gods long prior to the introduction of astrology.

waybread said:

David, so how would you use mythological Urania

in traditional western astrology?
Note that it is absolutely forbidden to discuss asteroid Urania on the traditional astrology board. We don't want to upset JA.
Shhhh...

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Let's not distress WB by mentioning Vettius Valens delineation of AQUARIUS
meanwhile ****** is off-topic
this thread concerns MERCURY





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tsmall said:

Having conversation about the Greco-Roman origins
of the Gods/Planet names/constellations is useful.
As is conversation about which came first, the astrology, or
the mythology?

There are those who believe that the myths actually were allegories for astrology.

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Anyone who wishes to have that conversation
and wishes to include endless emphasis on *******

may do so on another thread
not this thread
it is off-topic for this thread

BECAUSE

This thread is specifically focused on PLANET MERCURY




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david starling said:

Actually "******" was never a Greek OR a Latin name for the god personifing the Heavens. The Greek name had an "os" (Ouranos), at the end, and the Roman name for that god was "Caelus", not "****", which is a modern invention. It was an attempt to make a Greek name sound Roman, so it would fit in with the Latin names of the other astrological planets. The Greek name for the goddess of the Heavens "Ourania" was known in Latin as "Urania".

**** wasn't about just inspiration. She was about the measuring of the Heavens for both astrology and astronomy.

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Fascinating repetition of ******
no mention of the PLANET MERCURY

off-topic for this thread
if a discussion on ****** is required
then do commence that on your own thread





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waybread said:

JA, you're missing the point.

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The point is that the SECT condition of MERCURY is foundational
BUT
you're missing that point

waybread said:

The only ancient text you cited in support of your proposition is Ptolemy,
whom you didn't even like a few years ago.
You somehow saw him as in competition
with his contemporary Vettius Valens.

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Siriusly WB - you detest VETTIUS VALENS
for daring to describe Aquarians
in a way you disapprove of
and also

you somehow feel a need as well to drag ******
into a discussion
that the OP has clearly stated
is
regarding the PLANET MERCURY

waybread said:

I've been doing the heavy lifting for you,

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since '...heavy lifting...'
consists of posting multiple comments on ******
it's of no use on this thread which concerns PLANET MERCURY

waybread said:

in noting texts that support Mercury

as ruling astrology or astrologers.
I can look up a few more in my book collection, if
anyone is in doubt about this.
Or you could.
I'll leave it at that.

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good
take your heavy lifting of ******
to your own thread on ******
on a more appropriate board

.

david starling said:

So, would it also affect the type of astrology one practices?
For example I have retrograde Mercury at 19 degrees Pisces, and
my Asc. is at 15 degrees Pisces.
So, that's 1st House Whole-sign or 12th House Placidus.
It's also conjunct Mars at 17 degrees Pisces, and
very wide orb to my M.C. in Sagittarius.
Maybe that's why I've avoided becoming a professional astrologer, but
am extremely involved with it on a personal level, and
in a person-to-person manner. (Whole-sign does fit me best.)

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since you are focusing on your natal MERCURY
THEN

because
MERCURY is the TRADITIONAL ruler of astrology
Whether the chart is a Day Chart or a Night Chart
is foundational for traditional astrological delineation of MERCURY
and furthermore
MERCURY requires a complicated analysis
in order to determine
whether, for each individual natal chart
Mercury is a Day planet
or a Night planet

waybread said:

Alas, David-- your Mercury is in the sign of its fall
and retrograde to boot.
But it is in its own terms and face
so it's not bereft of essential dignity.....

waybread said:

.....Astrology is a very mental exercise
at one time
astrologers had to do all of the chart construction
calculations by hand.

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that was before computer calculated online charts

HOWEVER

many astrologers prefer to do their own calculations even TODAY

in preference to using astrological software
simply because
software calculated charts often differ

waybread said:

In ancient Roman sources, astrologers were called "....mathematicians...."
Mercury seems like a fitting ruler
So the position and condition of one's Mercury should have a big effect.
Maybe not on whether or not you will do astrology, but
what type you will do
and how you would go about it.

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Oddity said:

Traditionally, the astrologers' aspect goes:
Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn all aspecting each other

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david starling said:

What about squaring, trining, conjunct or opposite?

Oddity said:

Those all count.
And yes, I've got that configuration myself, with three of those planets angular
- it's a ring of sextiles in my case, ending in an opposition.

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tsmall said:

I needed this laugh.
Yes Mercury is the traditional ruler of astrology.
I mean, messenger of the Gods?
Thanks waybread and Odds for doing the heavy lifting.
W, agreed that sect has nothing to do with the OP.
Saving for a different day a whole other conversation about it.
Just wanted to thank ALL of you for this gem of a thread. I needed it today.
xo
t

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Laughter is the best medicine
Disagree re: Sect and MERCURY
Sect condition of MERCURY
is foundational


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JUPITERASC said:

Let's not distress WB by mentioning Vettius Valens delineation of AQUARIUS]meanwhile ****** is off-topic this thread concerns MERCURY
.

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Um, um--smack-talking Aquarius is off topic, so far as that goes.

But actually, Valens was even harder on the sign of Capricorn. It had to do with these signs' Saturn rulership.

One thing to remember about the Hellenistic astrologers is that the sun wasn't so strongly identified with one's core identity: that was more like the ascendant, or the ascendant in combination with other factors.

Mercury rules liars and thieves, in addition to astrologers, because the young god Mercury was a real trickster in Greek mythology.

JUPITERASC said:

Anyone who wishes to have that conversationand wishes to include endless emphasis on *******

may do so on another thread not this thread it is off-topic for this thread
BECAUSE This thread is specifically focused on PLANET MERCURY

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tsmall is a moderator. She calls the shots here.

I am curious as to whether anyone knows of a traditional candidate for the rulership of astrology besides Mercury, perhaps mentioned in a more obscure traditional source.

waybread said:

tsmall is a moderator.

She calls the shots here.

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Indeed
- a moderators word is law




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JUPITERASC said:

The point is that the SECT condition of MERCURY is foundational]you're missing that point [

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Sect is an accidental [not essential] dignity in traditional astrology. Nobody is missing that point. As you apparently disliked in my previous post, sect is irrelevant to the rulership of astrology. All planets have sect in one form or another.

Siriusly WB - you detest VETTIUS VALENS
for daring to describe Aquarians
in a way you disapprove of and also
you somehow feel a need as well to drag ******
into a discussion[
that the OP has clearly stated is
regarding the PLANET MERCURY

]since '...heavy lifting...'
consists of posting multiple comments on ******it's of no use on this thread which concerns PLANET MERCURY
go take your heavy lifting of ******]to your own thread on ****** on a more appropriate board]

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LOL, JA. The planet that dare not speak its name.... I spoke about the ancient god Uranus, JA. Re-read my posts. He did have a prominent place in ancient Greek cultural astronomy.

I think Valens is great. He gives real insights into the practice of astrology in his day, notably the influence of the legendary Nechepso and Petosiris. I once worked out all of his charts, and concluded that despite his knowledge of other house systems, he sticks to whole signs.

I am not tribal about what someone in 150 CE said about signs. I got a chuckle out of Valens' delineation of Aquarius and Capricorn.

I mean nobody, not even me, could be that bad.

waybread said:

Sect is an accidental [not essential] dignity in traditional astrology.
Nobody is missing that point.
As you apparently disliked in my previous post,
sect is irrelevant to the rulership of astrology.
All planets have sect in one form or another.
I think Valens is great. He gives real insights into the practice of astrology in his day, notably the influence of the legendary Nechepso and Petosiris. I once worked out all of his charts, and concluded that despite his knowledge of other house systems, he sticks to whole signs.
I am not tribal about what someone in 150 CE said about signs. I got a chuckle out of Valens' delineation of Aquarius and Capricorn.

tsmall said:

P.S. As a traditional astrologer/moderator,
simply mentioning outer planets isn't prohibited on this board.
Contrary to what <some> may believe.

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Mentioning outers IS prohibited

on this thread

I quote the OP
which clearly focuses on the SEVEN CLASSICAL PLANETS

i.e.
clearly
that

excludes the outers

JUPITERASC said:

Ancient texts support MERCURY ruling astrology.
According to traditional astrology it's Mercurius
also
TRADITIONALLY
Only THE SEVEN ANCIENT CLASSICAL PLANETS can '..rule..' anything
by definition

.

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Furthermore
SECT is foundational




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JA, your frequent repetition looks like you're out of other ideas, or simply want to bump up your posts on this thread.

Let's look beyond your standard tidy tables for a moment, and see traditional astrological Mercury in a broader context.

Throughout its history, the god Mercury was the psychopomp, or conductor of souls.

Mythology, astrology, and alchemy, and even ancient Egyptian magic have a long intertwined association, probably starting with Hermes Trismegistus in late Antiquity.

"Mercury" is also the name for the element Mercury (Hg) which is nicknamed quicksilver. It is the only element known to be in a fluid state at room temperature, hence its earlier scientific name of hydrargyros, meaning "liquid silver." During the medieval and Renaissance periods, alchemists believed in the efficacy of seven metals, and affixed the name Mercury and its astrological symbol to quicksilver, due to the planet's and element's potential for rapid motion. Elemental Mercury represented transitions between life and death, in keeping with the god Mercury's role as one of the conductors of souls into the underworld, and the planet Mercury's relatively rapid movement.

Alchemy emphatically was not about actually turning real lead into real gold, but was a secretive esoteric system relying on symbols to convey metaphysical meanings at a time when the Church tortured heretics. Somehow a heretical belief system dressed up as a chemistry experiment worked as a subterfuge.

Alchemists described "three primes" indicating three major states of matter. One of these was elemental Mercury, which stood for fusibility and volatility.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemical_symbol

Alchemy itself has a lot of astrological symbolism in it, and many magi of those periods practiced both, notably Paracelsus, John Dee, Johann Georg Faust (prototype of the Faust legends,) and a little known fact: Isaac Newton.

This tells us something about a well-functioning astrological Mercury's nature. It is quick. It is nimble and supple. It traverses different realms with ease. It has a secretive esoteric component, as well as pragmatic components with its exaltation in earthy grain-goddess Virgo.

To say that the planet Mercury rules traditional astrology is accurate. But really that's only the half of it. A focus on the few extant written ancient astrology texts excludes its association with other disciplines that we separate out today; but that practitioners fused together in the past.

Hey waybread, what is your opinion on the founding fathers of the U.S. being into such practices?

Bunraku said:

Hey waybread, what is your opinion on the founding fathers of the U.S. being into such practices?

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There is some debate on this topic. Apparently some of them were freemasons, whose symbolism was based on the kabbalah. This was originally an esoteric Jewish practice intended to lead to enlightenment that got adopted by Christians in medieval times.

Kabbalah wasn't horoscopic astrology as we think of chart reading, but it did use astrological symbols and planets for other purposes-- which is comparable to what the alchemists were doing. The planet Mercury was associated with the divine spark "Hod." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hod_(Kabbalah)

The founding of the US occurred near the end of the traditional astrology period. You may be familiar with the Sibly chart on the founding of the US. Some people think it shows familiarity with astrology, but that is open for debate.

Masons today deny an association of their practices with astrology.

Bunraku said:

Hey waybread, what is your opinion
on the founding fathers of the U.S. being into such practices?

waybread said:

There is some debate on this topic.
Apparently some of them were freemasons, whose symbolism
was based on the kabbalah.

This was originally an esoteric Jewish practice
intended to lead to enlightenment
that got adopted by Christians in medieval times.
Kabbalah wasn't horoscopic astrology as we think of chart reading, but
it did use astrological symbols and planets for other purposes--
which is comparable to what the alchemists were doing.
The planet Mercury was associated with the divine spark "Hod." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hod_(Kabbalah)


The founding of the US
occurred near the end of the traditional astrology period.
You may be familiar with the Sibly chart on the founding of the US.

Some people think it shows familiarity with astrology, but
that is open for debate.
Masons today deny an association of their practices with astrology.

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Exellent idea for a masonic thread discussion
on a more appropriate board

meanwhile
the focus is on the visible planet MERCURY


.

Those hundreds of horoscopes...many of them preceded him & his time...

waybread said:

Since you're a big fan of Vettius Valens
you might have pointed out
what he says about Mercury in Book One of his Anthologies:
"It also rules those skilled interpreters of the
heavens."
https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/vettius valens entire.pdf

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So thoughtful of you WB to mention VETTIUS VALENS

because
Vettius Valens' ANTHOLOGY
which you might have pointed out
but did not

is the longest extant astrological work from antiquity
It is UNIQUE in several respects:
the author was a practicing astrologer
the work includes more than 100 authentic horoscopes
of Valens' clients or associates
including his own
which is used as an example many times throughout the work
the work also includes tables
and the description of algorithms used by astrologers and mathematicians.
Professor Mark T Riley




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waybread said:

Mercury rules liars and thieves
in addition to astrologers, because
the young god Mercury was a real trickster in Greek mythology.

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Mercury controls law, intelligence, speech, reason, commerce, youth, education, writing, games, disputation, brotherhood, interpretation, messengers, numbers, calculation, geometry, deception, theft, community, exercise, service, profit, inventions, attendance, athletics, wrestling, hearing, declamation, certification, supervision, weighing and measuring, testing coins, versatility, critical thinking, judgement, marketing, banking, temple builders, modelers, sculptors, doctors, teachers, lawyers, orators, philosophers, architects, musicians, diviners, dream interpreters, sacrificers and augurs, astrologers, prophets, braiders, weavers, weight lifters, gamblers, mimes, sleight of hand, methodical work, military strategy, labour contracting, rhythmic performance, authority, luxury, renting, display of public service, irregular and disturbed outcomes with malefics, the vestibular system, the gustatory system, the auditory system, currency, copper, varied colours and pungent tastes.


Bibliography:
Robbins, F. E. (1940). Ptolemy: Tetrabiblos. William Heinmann, London. Retrieved from
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/home.html


Valens, V. Anthologia. Translated by Mark Riley. Retrieved from https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf

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incidentally, for any beginners reading this thread


'....SATURN signifies fraud...'

Benjamin Dykes translation of Abu Mashars GREAT INTRODUCTION
http://theastrologypodcast.com/2019/...enjamin-dykes/

Fascinating about Saturn, JA. But irrelevant to a thread on Mercury as the traditional ruler of astrology?

Everyone has Saturn somewhere. You, too.