What aspects indicate suicide/depression?

Lin

Well-known member
Of course it's not that simple.
A person has to have the potential for total hopelessness inherent in the chart....plus..the transits have to be hard and lengthy in the exact houses with the exact planets and lined up in a way that makes the person see NO light at the end of the tunnel.
This person would also be unconscious of the terrible legacy it would mean to anyone in his/her family....or just not care if the survivors are forever traumatized...because this is what happens.

Often suicide is something that has happened in the family in the past, with the person taking the position that suicide is the "way out" ....instead of fighting for life, just giving up.

It's very complicated. And in my opinion, usually preventable. At least in the cases I've seen through my practice.
LIN
 

Inline

Well-known member
A psychiatrist (my father) had to address this problem in his medical practice. He explained to my sisters and i when we were young, that someone who was suicidal was infact, very angry. The person's anger could be directed at themselves and they kill themselves, but it could just as easily be directed at someone else....

There is a fine line between suicide and murder.... both are the result of repressed anger, and one should never take a drive with a suicidal driver, because they may not want to die alone.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Not that simple. Lin has addressed the main points.

Sometimes a Mercury-Saturn conjunction or square indicates negative thinking. But oftentimes people have interior problems, which get pinged by some hard transits. However, there is no single signature for suicide or depression.
 

miquar

Well-known member
To answer the question a bit more fully, some charts show a greater propensity to depression and suicide than others, and Saturn, Chiron, Neptune and Pluto are the main planets to look for, plus the signs that they rule.

Sometimes a chart is very Jupiterian or Uranian, and difficult transits from the above planets are too much for such a free spirit to cope with.

Sometimes a Jupiter or Uranus transit can trigger suicide in someone with an innate tendency to suicide and depression, as they make a bid for freedom.

As had been mentioned, it is ultimately a violent act in many cases, fraught with anger, which suggests a Mars which is struggling to make the changes the native needs to make.

The statement that the native must have a potential for total hopelessness shown in the chart, and that certain houses must be involved, plus prolonged transits, doesn't make sense to me. Things like hopelessness can be felt no matter what time, day and place someone is born.

MsMadCat - why did you ask? Do you feel any more informed in the way you were hoping?
 

Lin

Well-known member
I want to add that there is such a thing as "passive suicide." This can be caused by depression...however, I also have to say that one can be depressed for long periods of time and not contemplate ending one's life.
This means a person can say, I wish I was dead; there's no point in living; i have nothing to live for; i'm so unhappy i could die....etc....and still not actually actively attempt ending their life.

But...I've seen many examples of people smoking after having lung cancer, drinking even after being diagnosed with liver disease, eating and smoking and doing other behaviors after being diagnosed with Diabetes.....not taking heart medication that was prescribed, being so obese it is uncomfortable to lay down in bed and must sleep sitting up, and so many other behaviors I've literally seen in people I know....and I think of THIS as passive suicide. I can't think of anything else it can be called.

In order to live well and keep "in the game, in the world of the living" you must follow the rules of living or else you will begin to die. You don't have to take a gun to your head or swallow 60 sleeping pills. When you don't 'care' ....you will leave...unless you have an epiphany....or a divine intervention.
LIN
 

Therese

Well-known member
I'd add that the chart would probably show a problem with "perspective", a lack of flexibility to change one's viewpoint either because they tend to become too overwhelmed by emotions, or they are too rigid in their thinking, or a number of other things. This could manifest in a chart in a lot of ways, and other factors should also lean towards "suicide", but I would put this as number one on my list.

I've grown up in a country that is in the top ten for suicide rate (over 20% of deaths are by suicide), in a region where the suicide rate is 2.5 times more than the national average. I could hardly point at a house in the street where I grew up where there wasn't at least one person who tried to commit suicide, and a lot of them succeeded (my father included).

Those who didn't succeed and talked about it afterwards named various things for doing it, being overriden by guilt and/or shame for something they had or hadn't done was number one, and then there was fear, pain, hopelessness... Everyone goes through these emotions, but for most people, total blackout, when nothing exists but the pain/guilt etc is rare. In most cases, suicide is kind of a total identification with a negative emotion, a loss of soul/self, they do not feel they have a choice because at that time they don't really exist, if you see what I mean. There's nothing but the guilt or there's nothing but the pain. The person is not facing a black hole, they are that black hole... a total loss of any kind of frame of refence, the "I" itself who could form any kind of perspective is lost.

Though there are other types of suicides, some are planned with a "cool" head, for example people with a terminal illness who don't want to go through it all... then there are those who don't really mean it but use it to control their environment (people with borderline personality disorder, for example) , sometimes they also succeed by accident.
 
Can you list them if you knew or is it not that simple?
Can you list them if you knew or is it not that simple?

In my experience with western natal astrology, whenever suicide is attempted, observe the ruler(s) of the natal 12th house (self undoing), 8th house (manner of death) and IC/4th house (i.e. the Imum coeli or "the lowest point") as THEY are almost always "active" at the time, either by transit or by SP or SA directions !

However, the SP's work MUCH better in my view; the Solar arcs can be horribly unreliable and let you down....

There are also outward signs of depression and suicidal tendencies, for which all astrologers should complete (in my opinion) some university level courses and training in basic psychology, to recognize those signs.

It is NOT a good idea, in my humble opinion, to narrow down suicide to one particular planet or sun sign. In doing so, you are travelling a very slippery slope, indeed ?

Did you know that ALL the planets can "kill"; even the good guys ...like the benefics ?

The SUN can "kill" through over ambition...ie Icarus flying too close to the Sun, the melting of wax and drowning in the sea, below ? or , through a heart attack or stroke !

The MOON can "kill" through over-eating and/or self-indulgence...or before the public. danger near water or drowning.

MERCURY can "kill" through car accidents, while travelling or through over work.

VENUS can "kill" through kindness ! Grammy award singer Roberta Flack once said: Killing me softly with his song, telling my whole life with his words, killing me softly with his song ?" LOL

So yeah, before you kick off and kill yourself, just whistle Roberta Flack on the way to the funeral home ! It also "helps" if you have the natal Moon in Pisces or anything in Pisces ! LOL (just kidding !)

MARS often "kills" through violence, haste, and bloodshed. He who lives by the SWORD, DIES by the sword !

I agree with the above post that suicide is a form of self-harm or aggression turned inward. Mars, in my view, likely figures prominently in suicides. Look at Robin Williams' recent (suicide) death, prominent Mars aspects and transits all over the place, but also, b/c Williams was "ruled" by Mars (n. scorpio rising) while Saturn (death) transited his 1st house.

JUPITER, the so-called GREATER BENEFIC, hastens, speeds up and encourages death, and welcomes suicide....

In many death event charts, Jupiter always figures prominently, isn't it true ?

SATURN IS the traditional ruler of DEATH, but don't forget that Saturn also delays the inevitable ! If Saturn in found in VIII house, natally, the death is never a suicide, but usually due to old age or some disease related to Saturn ?

URANUS "kills" accidentally, through an unforeseen event or action. That said, we must remember that the ultimate purpose of Uranus is not to shock or to startle, but to free the slaves.

The true son or daughter of Uranus thinks that everyone is equal...and therefore, there must be an equal playing field ?

Therefore, the only way to accomplish that equality... is to free all the prisoners from bondage !

Therefore, Uranus in the 8th house is about the freeing of the soul from all
material wants, restrictions and burdens, including financial. This could also explain why Uranus is said to be "exalted" in SCORPIO, the natural ruler of the 8th house !

Neptune "kills" in a typically mysterious, fated way; through self-deceit, poisons, such as drugs and alcohol, wasting diseases and sometimes, suicide and/or overdose.

Pluto "kills" silently, secretly, and serrupticiously. Pluto rules the eliminative and sex organs and also tends to magnify the intensity of normal strength transits and "normal" planetary activity. People who contract terminal illnesses to the extremities usually have Pluto either transiting the natal or some SP/SA in play ?

Finally, whenever any of the trans-Saturnian planets are involved, (by transit, SP or SA) the implications are not always one's OWN physical death, but intense psychological events and implications that change the person's landscape, forever.

Therefore, transformation and/or far-reaching changes to the personal life are often a marked development whenever Pluto, Neptune, and/or Uranus is involved.

This could range from a death of a loved one to some cataclysmic personal event like bankruptcy, relocation to other side of earth, to dealings with criminals and the like.

later,


HM
 
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Lin

Well-known member
Thanks Therese for your post....which you describe a first hand view....I don't know where you live but I'm wondering if you live in a high latitude where the nights are very long and there 's a lack of sunshine.....
I have seasonal affective disorder....I think that's the name for it. SAD.

And I live in an active, nice area in Long Island. But the weather really does a number on me.
It's harder as you get older because you find it harder to be impulsive in your actions. There are more responsibilities and money can be tight and if it's raining or snowing....who the heck wants to brave the weather ....as in last winter here in the northeast of the US, bitterly cold day after day, and a lot of snow....so you think twice about getting in the car....

I mean....last year I mentioned to several people that I understand why those Pioneer women died young....they died of depression and boredom and unending responsibility...LOL....

But these things are cyclicle....with the Spring comes better mental attitude if one's basic psyche is healthy.

But to live where suicide is common must be depressing in itself!
I'd really like to hear more about that....if not here on the forum maybe by personal message.
LIN
 

Therese

Well-known member
Hi Lin,

sure, you can pm me. I'm from Central Europe, so weather really doesn't have anything to do with it (hot summer, changeable spring and autumn, cold winter - typical continental weather).

Every culture has its bright and dark side. I like that we are mostly introverted (I was totally surprised when I learnt that in America, "introvert" is almost a swear word - in my culture, they often use "extrovert" for people they consider superficial, fake and/or noisy. stereotypes...sigh...). So, on the positive side, we are encouraged to discover and cultivate our inner world... but there's a negative side to introversion...

I'll tell two jokes, I think they will illustrate my point well.

It is winter, and father and son are out in the forest, cutting wood. They make a fire to warm themselves and their food. They stand by the fire, then they turn to warm their backs, too.
son: Father, I need to tell you something.
father: well, son, think about it, words are not to be wasted
the son nods, goes silent for a minute, then starts again:
son: Father, I still want to say it
father: think it over carefully, a man should not make an **** [rear end] of his mouth
The son nods, goes silent for a minute again.
son: Father, I will say it anyway
father sighs, shaking his head hopelessly.
son: Father, your coat is on fire.

---
Public opinion survey:
surveyor: could you describe your general mood?
man: good.
surveyor: in more detail, please
man: not good.

---
As my mother likes to say "keep your mouth shut, hold your head up high and get your job done". Which has always cracked me, my mother is strongly Gemini, can you imagine how good she is at point number one? She is quiet only when she is asleep... or sick. But she rarely ever talks about her feelings, and almost never shows them.

.
 

Therese

Well-known member
I think that the bottom line of our last posts is that isolation is a major player, too.

I am not sure what leads more frequently to suicide, an ongoing mental/emotional issue like depression, or a sudden crisis the native is totally unable to cope with, or a combination of both. But I think that if the native did not feel emotionally isolated from others, they would trust that whatever the issue, they are not on their own. Some people have an innate sense of connection with others while others tend to feel disconnected... etc.

If you are still interested in this topic, I think we should have a look at a few specific charts and see. composer Bernd Alois Zimmermann, for example, has an interesting chart on astro.com with AA Rodden rating... http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Zimmermann,_Bernd_Alois
 

Lin

Well-known member
I dont know that composer, but I liked the 2nd joke a lot.

I have never heard "introvert" and "extrovert" used to describe cultural characteristics.

In MY life I have been both. I was born with Scorpio rising (no planets anywhere near the asc). Now my progressed Asc is Capricorn, and people actually tell me that I'm not as much fun as I was earlier in my life.
YEAH>>>>my Asc. was Sagi for 30 years!! Of course I was fun. I'm a Leo with Moon in Gemini...lol
AND I had to learn to use FEWER words...I was a "nervous talker" for many years.

But I'm an astrologer....and you just can't talk for 3 hours when giving a reading. Believe me, you get hoarse. So I had to learn to concentrate the information into fewer words. This was a very good and important exercise that lasted many years. LOL

And your mother meant that YOU should keep your mouth shut...not necessarily HER.lol

My mother used to say, DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO. My mother always treated me like a child, never a friend....even when I became a mother.

OY....what a role model. I ended up doing the exact opposite to just about everything she did in raising me when I began raising my twin girls. And it actually worked out pretty well.

Anyway, I think it's important to NOT try to live your life through other people's eyes OR to live out values that are NOT your own. You have to be the judge of your life. You must never let anyone else judge you. It gives them too much power.

Active suicide of a person NOT terminally ill is something I find so mystifying. I mean I "know" that they must be feeling totally inundated by dark feelings of total helplessness and hopelessness. And if a transit is involved it is so sad that had they waited the worst of the feelings might have just dissolved.

But on the other hand they also must totally have released themselves from all responsibility. Think about this. It is saying, "I quit."
And it teaches others to be quitters too. It's almost contagious.
That is why often suicide runs in families.
And that is really sad.

I believe I was put here for some reason. I have survived and even had a couple of "close calls" when I could easily have died. But I survived. So if providence has seen fit to allow me to be here, I feel it's my responsibility to be here. MAybe I will be useful to someone who will go on to be important or to do something that will end up being vital in this world. Who knows? But I can't do ANYthing if I "quit."
LIN
 

Julian

Banned
Can you list them if you knew or is it not that simple?

Anything but Jupiter conjunct the Sun, Mars, MC, Ascendant, Moon, or the Descendant I think. I once did a psychological test and it said I was almost immune to depression. (Sun conjunct Jupiter in my case)
 

ScorpioCrow

Well-known member
I have Sun conjunct Jupiter and I had depression for like 3 years, but my Jupiter isn't very strong despite it being in Pisces (coruled). It's square Moon bringing emotional UNhappiness rather than good luck and joy?

Saturn in Aries, perhaps a limitation of the life-force?

Saturn square Ascendant exact. ASC= 17 Capricorn, Saturn at 17 Aries. I read that that aspect is a hint of 'death by suicide.'

But that was on some Indian astrology page and in my experience their interpretations tend toward the negative/fatalistic. Sure, I'm a happy camper now, but in 30 years who knows???
 

MissScorpio

Well-known member
I had a friend that sadly took his own life in November. I always look to Moons and Mercury. In his Case Mercury/Uranus opposition. More often than not the thinking is over dramatic - Leo and also Jupiter can give someone the courage to actually just get on and do it... Whereas sharp Mercury and Virgo/Saturn tends to earth things alongside allowing them to be more practical about the situation.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Maybe other ways around this are looking at transits and progressions during particularly rough periods, and then also, seeing what horoscope placements seem to confer an unbeatable optimism-- even for difficult times in the person's life.

Why does one person say, "Life isn't good and it's never going to feel better;" whereas another person says, "Life isn't good but it will get better," or "I'm learning to make the best of it"?

But I do think the moon is so important, due to its rulership of moods and emotions. However, it isn't the only factor, just as depression can have different causes. Sometimes a chart has little or no air, for example, and a lot of water, making it difficult for a person to "think" his way out of miserable feelings. Without much fire, it can be hard for a depressed person to take the initiative to seek help. Without much earth, it can be hard to feel "grounded."

I wonder what people would see in the chart of Robin Williams? http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Williams,_Robin

He struggled with depression during much of his life, notably prior to his suicide on August 11 (or 10th) 2014.
 

alexandre

Member
As am I concerned I have Saturn on the 12th cuspide in Libra (while my Sun in Libra and Ascendant either so Saturn in very important).

When Pluto did a square five years ago, to my Saturn, it wasn't a very hopefulness period and even a harsh period but when Mercur retrograde add with Mars to Pluto (all three squaring Saturn natal) it was the darkest period of my life. It's like a shock. I couldn't sleep during all this week because all negative points in my whole life (since I was a child) were in my head.
So I was really decided to commit suicide (it was the first time that I had really made the decision). I would say that it was so painful that you can think about your family you think at all but end up your life.
Then by good luck, I was in hollydays (christmas) and I decided to wait a bit and see (I'm definitely not impulsive - Saturn -) . Finally I did nothing, later in January I felt a little better.

So I can say that planets concerned (to my case) were Saturn, Pluto and Mercure (it was retrograde).
A few years later when Uranus squared natal Saturn, it was harsh and sudden (in particular when retrograde) but not as strong and violent.

I 'd add that the reason which has sparked my desire to commit suicide was completely false, that's the worst. It was an error of judgment (mercure retrograde) !!!

Now I am serene because I don't think I will have worse transits as those above. Thanks to astrology I can say that the worst is behind me !
 

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LyP

Well-known member
saturn and neptune is the main imho

Saturn is responsible for the feeling of frustration and hindrance, while Neptune confusion, and feel lost

Saturn or Neptune in difficult aspects may be the cause.
especially distressing personal planets like the sun

moon is important also
 

Julian

Banned
Can you list them if you knew or is it not that simple?

To give a few examples:

Moon in a hard aspect with Neptune
Pluto in a hard aspect with Neptune
A bad Uranus, Saturn and Neptune combination.
Saturn and Pluto in a hard aspect, especially if it's implying the first house/ascendant.
 
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