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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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Unread 12-18-2019, 11:28 AM
Tiarus Tiarus is offline
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Puzzling interpretation - Johannes Angelus and Firmicus

Hi!
For some time one particular interpretation from Johanes' Astrological Optics bothers me a lot. Similar can be found in Mathesis.

Quote:
(Astrological optics) If the Horoscope be found in Leo, he that has this ascendant shall be subject to much labour and many dangers, well known, alwayes ingenious, one having free power; not expressing his malice in all things, desirous to live and Rule; and getting the Substance of his estate by his own endeavours; but if Mars be partilely placed in the ascendant, or the Sun behold him with a square or opposition, he denies having any children, but if Jupiter be found so placed, he gives one daughter.
Quote:
(Mathesis book V ch. I.13 ) But if Mars is found partilely in this same house, or if the Sun with Saturn aspects it by square or opposition, it altogether denies children. But if Jupiter is found in a similar manner, it will give one daughter.
Jupiter is a male planet, Leo is a male sign. If Sun is in opposition to Leo ascendant and Jupiter in it, it will be in Aq which is also a male sign. So what's the logic behind this: male planet + male sign = daughter, how can it be?
Ibn Ezra (Nativites, III v) mentioned that Jupiter can produce female child if is occidental of the Sun and in occidental quadrant and in feminine sign. But this is not the case.


Any ideas?


Last edited by Tiarus; 12-18-2019 at 11:31 AM.
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Unread 12-18-2019, 11:38 AM
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Re: Puzzling interpretation - Johannes Angelus and Firmicus

Leo is an infertile constellation, so Firmicus' source probably thought it removed the possibility of a son.
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Unread 12-18-2019, 11:41 AM
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Re: Puzzling interpretation - Johannes Angelus and Firmicus

1st, 2nd and 3rd houses are western relative to the horizon and feminine though.
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Unread 12-18-2019, 11:46 AM
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Re: Puzzling interpretation - Johannes Angelus and Firmicus

The Saturn, Mars and Sun configuration means no children probably by disharmonious aspect to the 10th (which is the Hellenistic house of children) equal house, as Ptolemy probably meant in his chapter. - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...los/4B*.html#6

Jupiter will give a daughter in this situation, because it is a fertile planet among infertile ones.
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Unread 12-18-2019, 12:01 PM
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Re: Puzzling interpretation - Johannes Angelus and Firmicus

Hi, Petosiris!
Thank you for your answers.

Just wondering if sign genders are a little bit overestimating according to this?
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Unread 12-18-2019, 12:05 PM
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Re: Puzzling interpretation - Johannes Angelus and Firmicus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiarus View Post
Hi, Petosiris!
Thank you for your answers.

Just wondering if sign genders are a little bit overestimating according to this?
Well from what I understand while reading Ptolemy, the natural gender of the planets, the gender of the sign, the gender of the quadrant, and the gender of the phase (for the five planets) are all equal considerations to take into account. So the sign would be 1/3 consideration in case of the luminaries, and 1/4 consideration in case of the five planets. But I would judge occidental Jupiter by phase and quadrant in masculine sign as a common planet, neither masculine nor feminine, because he is masculine by nature (even though he is moderately moistening?).

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...los/1B*.html#6
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...los/3A*.html#6

Last edited by petosiris; 12-18-2019 at 12:10 PM.
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