The Twelfth House

RaptInReverie said:

Sandstone,

I stand by what I said above: self-undoing tendencies can manifest anywhere in a natal chart, and that’s pretty self-explanatory.

The Sun and Saturn should not be taken to represent strength and weakness, as dignity and debility determine strength and weakness. The Sun represents the native and Saturn represents discipline and restriction, or even wisdom in certain instances.

If you view the twelfth house as the final house in the social hemisphere and you also consider it to be weak, then you must also view the culmination of everything acquired throughout the preceding five houses to be weak. Why does completion have to imply that something is weakened? One could certainly view the twelfth as a graduation or an attainment, and in that sense it makes no sense to consider it weak.

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A graduation or culmination would actually (in my mind's eye) point towards something weakening in strength. You are done, you have nothing left to do in regards to it, thus it doesn't take up a ton of mental space ( 12th subconscious).

I also disagree that Saturn and the Sun should not be viewed in terms of strength and weakness without looking at dignity. It's about breaking the planet down to its fundamental and essential nature.

The sun is strength. It is the reason we are even here. It is life force and what could be stronger than a force that creates all that you see?

Saturn is weakness because it shows where we ourselves are weak. It shows the place where we need the most work. With time we can strengthen the area that Saturn rules or governs, but at its fundamental level, Saturn represents our weaknesses.

Just my opinion. I know it sounds very much like I see no room for another view, but that's just how it came out and I am too lazy at the moment to retype.

Munch,

The knowledge you gain from experience in a particular field is not obliterated because you graduate from it. We take what we’ve learned here with us just as a student who graduates takes what he’s acquired from school with him into the “real world”.

The fundamental symbolism behind the Sun is presence. It is simply being: “I AM’, “I exist”. Just as the Sun is the center of the solar system, you are the center of your natal chart and life. Strength is a condition that is determined by other factors, like how one thing compares to another. A thing is not strong simply because it exists.

Weakness is also a condition determined by other factors. Saturn itself does not represent weakness, but weakness can be determined by the condition Saturn is in. Saturn in my chart shows where I am most disciplined and controlled--these I hardly consider to be weak.

You should be very careful about what you allow yourself to believe, for belief in something strongly enough will manifest it in your own life, not others.

raptinreverie,

thanks for your comments.. i am not interested in creating a situation of only one of us is right and the other is wrong( which happens too much in so many areas including astrology!) so much as continuing to have what i consider a worthwhile and interesting conversation.. so thanks for the ongoing comments here..

i think the idea of "self undoing" can come out of different parts of the chart (planetary combos in midpoint structures is the first thing that comes to my mind), but if the idea of the 12th house as having a connection to this idea of 'self undoing' is going to have any significance to the 12th house and not all the other houses, then it either does, or it doesn't.. the idea of a planet ruling a house then becomes a critical consideration in this as does a particular house system one might use.. my understanding of the word house as used down into the deep past is that it was essentially the same as the 'sign' word.. it was only much later that a distinction was made between signs and houses.. this is also why some use a system of houses called 'whole-sign houses' too as i understand it.. if we are going to carry over an idea from the distant past i think it is helpful to understand the context the idea was operating within and especially if we want to apply it in the present..

i thought of one example where i believe a fair bit of 'self undoing' was on display - the life of bernie madoff.. without remembering the astro set up, i took a look to see what shape his 12th house is in and whether this could apply.. as it turns out madoff's chart has pluto in the late degrees of cancer in the 11th or 12th depending on the house system of your choice, with either cancer or leo on the cusp of the 12th again dependent on your preferred house system. leaving aside whether one uses pluto or not, i think pluto has a natural association with issues associated with the 8th house - working with others money being one of the themes drawn into this.. as it turns out the moon ruler of the 12th - (equal whole-sign houses) is in the sign taurus in a conjunction to the sun (ruler of the 12th using placidus and some other house systems).. that madoff was involved in a ponzi scheme to such a phenomenal extent which when uncovered resulted in many disturbing dynamics to his immediate family and beyond is without question.. whether one can pick this up from the ruler of the moon or sun - venus in taurus at the south node and conjunction the midheaven, or not doesn't change the fact this person led a life that clearly came undone at a moment in time not all that long ago.. how much of it is based on the position of pluto being squared by mercury retrograde- 2nd and 11th house ruler, or moon in taurus which in turn is ruled by venus in what many would consider in inauspicious position on the south node will hinge heavily on what astrologer is doing the reading.. one could also suggest the jupiter position created a too much of a good thing, up until it didn't anymore too..jupiter is the 8th house ruler of others finances. the saturn position in the 8th or 9th could also be factored into this, so yes - 'self undoing' can be seen a few different ways in astrology, but i think in terms of houses - the 12th is the first place many would look..

another person who comes to mind, also with a sun in taurus is dominque strauss kahn.. let me grab his chart and take a look.. perhaps he isn't near as good an example of the idea of 'self undoing' in relation to the 12th house, as the sex allegations have subsided, in spite of other women coming forward more recently in france. strauss-kahn is/was involved in finance - head of the imf, and possibly interested in running for the presidency of france.. the background stories on his sexual involvement can be taken a few ways, but apparently this story plays differently in the french culture then in the usa culture according to what i recall reading about this.. interestingly dsk also has jupiter closely conjunction his descendant in aquarius and squaring onto a venus in taurus, although not as close.. jupiter in both cases is the traditional ruler of the 8th house again having an association with issues to do with the resources of others and while it appears he has escaped the damaging sounds of what put him in jail temporarily, i am not sure how it affects his chances politically at this point..

ruler of the 12th is the moon is in aries and fairly close to conjunct the midheaven.. neptune is in opposition to these 2 points and is a planet having a connection to the ideas of 'self undoing' as well, but overall i am not so sure i would bring it back to the 12th house as being the basis for what may or may not be a form of 'self undoing' given he is still carrying on in his role, with the events of his past throwing a cloud that is very much in the eye of the beholder at this point.. perhaps more will emerge, or perhaps he will run for the president of france and we will be hearing more about him in the news. i suppose i have gotten carried away in a diversion of my own making to a degree with going over dsk's chart..

regarding saturn as symbol for weakness and sun as symbol for strength - it is an idea based on stripping away all the many other considerations astrologers give to the sign, house and relationship of these planets towards the rest of the chart.. sign position and house position will modify these comments, but i think they still have much relevance generally and an obvious association with the idea of saturn being the greater malefic regardless of what sign or house it is located.. the sun as symbol for strength will be modified but from the point of view of it being the giver of life regardless of sign or house position, i think this is without question. i associate these ideas of strength and weakness with these 2 planets in this sense..

as for the comment about weakness and strength in connection with the upper or lower hemisphere and the nature of cycles, these ideas are based on my own viewpoints on cycles and my understanding on the cycle of both the 12 signs of the zodiac and the 12 houses that make up the 360 circle of a typical astro chart. the final phase of one cycle to the next, implies a letting go and focusing in a different manner, making adjustments and turning away from the past in order to start something new.. going from strength to strength in all of it is an appealing idea.. maybe the polarity of weakness / strength, good/bad, material/spiritual and all these dualities are mental traps of sorts that we all use to describe our experiences when in fact that don't really explain the situation as well as living it.. i don't know if i have said more to hang myself with, or said something that might be of value, but that is my ultimate intent.. regards - james

Gaer-- Is that you???? Welcome back!!

I take your point about a parental planet indicating the person's experience of the planet, not what the parent was objectively like. Obviously you could have siblings each with different Saturn or moon placements, yet it's the same parent notwithstanding. And of course, our experiences can change over time.

Rapt in Reverie, just because hardship can show up anywhere in the chart doesn't mean that horoscopes work this way in practice. I doubt that a nice moon-Venus trine is going to negatively affect someone, but you never know. In contrast a T-square to one's sun involving a Saturn opposition or a Pluto square will probably be felt very strongly-- and harshly-- unless the individual has really mastered their energies. I don't think life is all nicey-nice to all people at all times, and if astrology means anything, a horoscope should reflect that.

I don't know what else to say, other than that I have read a lot of astrology "cookbooks" and read hundreds of charts. I pay attention to feedback, because that's how I refine my developing skills.

I think the 12th house is easier to explain for people who have read Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now; Buddhism, Hinduism, or some of the human potential movements that encourage people to get their egos out of the way and just be still.

Looked at from this perspective, the ego might be a good servant but it is definitely a poor master. As the modern "house of self undoing" the 12th house works best if we learn how to let our self be run by What-Is rather than by me, me, me. I think this shift in consciousness is felt most strongly by 12th house sun people; but as Carris indicated, it can take a while for the individual to make this transition.

Some of the most successful examples of 12th house people learned to identify with a cause or group of people bigger than themselves; because this kind of orientation takes the focus off the ego.

On the other hand, I have seen some really strong 12th house charts where the individual indeed was actually incarcerated or whose work involved prisons, as per the 12th's rulership of prisons. A good example would be singer Johnny Cash, who whose song "Folsom Prison" helped make his reputation. He also gave free concerts in prisons.

Maybe the 12th shows us where we are not in control, do not understand, or cannot project the image we wish. So is "letting go" a misfortune or hardship? To some. To others it may be the pathway to spirituality or service to others.

Oh my heavens! So, many good points were brought up and certainly, our ancestors were not superstitious. Their views by today's scientific reasoning might not be appreciated but, hey, 100 yearsa ago science was pretty superstitious, too. Now, religion is definitely superstitious. ON the other hand, astrology took intellect about geometry, higher math, astronomy, my goodness! A LOT more thought than cracking open some book of moral judgements or stealing bodies from graves to dissect them. You get my point.

Now, time has changed the world and some pronouncements about some things simply do nto apply. Like for example, when am I going to tell someone they are going to grow up to be a chimney sweeper? yet, there is an aspect in vocations for this. Does it apply NOW if someone has it? No.

Now, simply because it doesn't obviously apply, am I going to erase or ignore it or call someone superstitious. Hell no! There is wisdom in the tradition, man! There is no wisdom in re-writing something to your whim or because you cannot grasp the fundamentals of what created it.

Understanding is the key to correct translation, of matters, of language, of history and times, etc.

There is something the 12th gives or created in a person, natally, just as the 5th or the 8th. Why is it people can say, "oh yeah, the 8th is death." and be done with it. Yet, they have such a hard time saying, "Oh, the 12th ...yeah...bit of undoing and obfuscation there....obviously" I mean, no one argues about the meaning of the 8th and it is FAR worse than what is being said abotu the 12th. I mean, at least in the 12th you are alive! lol Reminds me of that movie clue:


Professor Plum: What are you afraid of, a fate worse than death?
Mrs. Peacock: No, just death, isn't that enough?

Or this one. I love this one! Madeline Kahn plays Mrs White.

Miss Scarlet asking about Mrs White's husband
Miss Scarlet: Do you miss him?
Mrs. White: Well, it's a matter of life after death. Now that he's dead, I have a life.
Wadsworth: But, he was your second husband. Your first husband also disappeared.
Mrs. White: But that was his job. He was an illusionist.
Wadsworth: But he never reappeared!
Mrs. White: [admittedly] He wasn't a very good illusionist.

LOL, how 12th methinks...lol

Rapt,

Eeek. I think you misunderstood me.

I didn't mean knowledge was obliterated. Just the opposite. The knowledge and wisdom gained and collected becomes second nature in the 12th house. 2nd nature being subconscious. Therefore, the focus is no longer necessarily your on 12th house issues (unless there is an emphasis). That's all I meant.

I won't continue to bang on my other points as its absolutely not necessary either.

Munch said:

Rapt,

Eeek. I think you misunderstood me.

I didn't mean knowledge was obliterated. Just the opposite. The knowledge and wisdom gained and collected becomes second nature in the 12th house. 2nd nature being subconscious. Therefore, the focus is no longer necessarily your on 12th house issues (unless there is an emphasis). That's all I meant.

I won't continue to bang on my other points as its absolutely not necessary either.

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Haha,

I apologize for misconstruing your words, Munch.

I guess I really don't understand the concept you used to label the twelfth house as weak. It's alright though. You don't have to explain it now.

Waybread,

Oh yes, my friend, self-undoing can be caused by even the most harmonious and benign aspects and placements. When conditions are too accommodating, people become weakened much like the way muscles in a sedentary person atrophy over time. This form of self-undoing is just as insidious and detrimental as addictions and depression are. And that is not to mention pride, ignorance, indulgence, negligence, superficiality, and precipitousness--all of which can result from “good” aspects and placements. No, life is not nice at all, and I certainly don’t mean to imply that.

I do agree, just as many others here, that the twelfth house is selfless. It is definitely not a house where the ego is in control, and it can be described as a house of service to others, which opens the path to spiritual maturity and development.

Anachiel,

No matter how upset you get, and no matter how hard you stomp your feet, astrology is still currently regarded as pseudo-science by most people. Why? Because so many of you guys expect everyone to adhere to “the fundamentals” when a lot of these “fundamentals” haven’t even been scientifically tested or studied (like this twelfth house issue). Some of them don’t even make theoretical sense. What you are following is the very thing you condemn religious people for following: superstitious dogma.

I am not re-writing anything, nor am I demanding that other people accept my ideas and opinions. But it’s pretty sad that the most frequent response I get upon questioning you guy’s beliefs is “cuz some old book said so”. You have no room to criticize religion.

waybread said:

Gaer-- Is that you???? Welcome back!!

I take your point about a parental planet indicating the person's experience of the planet, not what the parent was objectively like. Obviously you could have siblings each with different Saturn or moon placements, yet it's the same parent notwithstanding. And of course, our experiences can change over time.

Rapt in Reverie, just because hardship can show up anywhere in the chart doesn't mean that horoscopes work this way in practice. I doubt that a nice moon-Venus trine is going to negatively affect someone, but you never know. In contrast a T-square to one's sun involving a Saturn opposition or a Pluto square will probably be felt very strongly-- and harshly-- unless the individual has really mastered their energies. I don't think life is all nicey-nice to all people at all times, and if astrology means anything, a horoscope should reflect that.

I don't know what else to say, other than that I have read a lot of astrology "cookbooks" and read hundreds of charts. I pay attention to feedback, because that's how I refine my developing skills.

I think the 12th house is easier to explain for people who have read Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now; Buddhism, Hinduism, or some of the human potential movements that encourage people to get their egos out of the way and just be still.

Looked at from this perspective, the ego might be a good servant but it is definitely a poor master. As the modern "house of self undoing" the 12th house works best if we learn how to let our self be run by What-Is rather than by me, me, me. I think this shift in consciousness is felt most strongly by 12th house sun people; but as Carris indicated, it can take a while for the individual to make this transition.

Some of the most successful examples of 12th house people learned to identify with a cause or group of people bigger than themselves; because this kind of orientation takes the focus off the ego.

On the other hand, I have seen some really strong 12th house charts where the individual indeed was actually incarcerated or whose work involved prisons, as per the 12th's rulership of prisons. A good example would be singer Johnny Cash, who whose song "Folsom Prison" helped make his reputation. He also gave free concerts in prisons.

Maybe the 12th shows us where we are not in control, do not understand, or cannot project the image we wish. So is "letting go" a misfortune or hardship? To some. To others it may be the pathway to spirituality or service to others.

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Yes - Undoing is an excellent thing. It causes disenchantment with this gross, dense, physical earthly dimension - you begin to get a desperate desire to leave this horrible plane and go back home forever.

I think the 12th would be prominent in charts of people who are near the end of their incarnations on earth. It is time to begin disenchantment with material things. It is time to graduate from earth and be free of the cycle of karma and reincarnation. And move onto higher spiritual planes of growth.

This quote explains it:


And this quote:

"Presently, you are experiencing the 3rd dimension as a human being on earth for your spiritual growth. You have been reincarnating on earth for thousands of years in a wide variety of different lives, to advance your consciousness, by experiencing the 3D spiritual lesson of “Duality,” whereby you emotionally experience and explore the highs and lows of every different aspect as a human being. After each physical death on Earth, you returned home to the spirit world and began planning your next incarnation. For many of you, your soul or consciousness has now finished experiencing duality in the 3rd dimension – you have nothing else to learn. It is time to move on. Life is not defined by physical death, your soul is immortal, incarnations are only about the spiritual advancement of your consciousness."

Waybread
I read somewhere that the ease and comfort of all trines and sextiles is actually very undesirable - because there is no need or push to grow, no challenges to overcome. Its like trust-fund kids who get so bored with their easy lives that they overdose on drugs and alcohol. Whereas, squares and oppositions present challenges that cause tremendous growth and success and a sense of personal satisfaction, a sense of "Wow, I did it, I made it!".

We def live in more than one world, the "awake world"? and the "dream world" no joke the matrix really can make you head spin they hit it on with alot of good stuff. Like when trinity says you dont wana go down that road, you have been down there and know where it leads." We all have that mission of purpose you know. If we really did evolve like darwins theory explains, you could see how we long for that feeling. Every animal does what it does, bees like their flowers, ants like to come inside your home etc, but if you evolve you would think you would lose that sense of purpose.

this is why the world is always going to be crazy, if you ever believe you found the answer you will say I found it! but I cant explain it you cant find words to express it, YET its simple that these very same words, which have meaning to you and every1 else on the planet got you to that answer, yet you cant find the words, but they mean something to you right? and they helped you understand? right?

I get the feeling that a lot of us are unsure about ourselves. Well for one I personally wouldn't let go of 'the world' so much, since we are all technicaly still here. Also I have stated this before (to the few who have said that I don't have planets in the 12th and so thus I don't know what it feels like) for those who want justification...I do have planets in the 12th. Just because I don't express it or agree with everyones views on how the 12th should operate doesn't give anyone the right to be so condescending. I mean all posts here are still opinions, not facts, or at least studies which have been proven in most cases.

only problem I have with the fact we are here on earth for growth is the fact.. I believe I am not talking out of my butt, please correct me though if I am, but is anything grown to grow, lol from a perspective of this kind, there is a harvest for a reason. I cant help but think things like people who see the sun and praise because it gives life, but is it not clear something else gives life to the sun? Or physics tells us we have only explored a "city block" worth of the universe in scale of our world. Not only that but the same goes with the ocean...I dont want to sound like a jackass but I read the other day about how gammerays are being detected in lightning, I dont really care the fact that in my head I thought of this before reading about it, but I am just saying in physics we are all equal, it is a accpeted ignorance, we are all guessing, and whoever has the more creative mind will find the truth. wana know my logic for coming up with it, you saw it, the fact that we havnt seen any amount of the universe, how do we know what lightning looks like or acts outside our solar systems, or any kind of space or matter for that fact, we dont know if space is the same in all parts of space. we only know 10%. I just simply took a guess, because like lightning, gamma rays appear out of "no where" it seems, that was all.
you are a spec of dust in a sum beam haha
http://19.media.tumblr.com/vExSfRir7ksssdcedJ9d7wIco1_400.jpg

love that

To Powerion....,that was putting it bluntly. But pretty much yea....we are all specs of dust. As the saying goes "from dust you came and from dust you shall' go".

I am sorry wasnt thinking about the topic

powerion said:

row row row your boat gently down the stream,......life is but a ???

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Now that's just being nonsensical. I suppose I have to add another piece of info regarding the 12th so the conversation doesn't stray too far. Ugh....it's so hard considering i'm using an iTouch to write this.

Allow me to clarify for those of you who are having difficulties comprehending my posts:

I did not say that a person could not comment on a particular issue unless he/she has the same natal placements.

I did not say that empty houses and signs don’t exist.

I did not say that a person without certain placements doesn’t know what they feel like.

What I said was this: Don’t make definitive statements and proclaim misfortunes if all you’re going to use to support them are weak theories you read in a book. If a group of people with a particular placement attempt to shed light on previous held notions about the placement, don’t accuse them of re-writing things or disregarding the fundamentals. Don’t say that planets in the 12th house are x, y, and z when you have nothing to support it in addition to not even having any placements there in your own chart.

And yes, there are certain advantages that one gains when they actually experience something firsthand.

president obama has the planets saturn and jupiter located in the 12th house with saturn the ruler of the 12th and 1st using traditional rulerships. mars, the ruler of his midheaven aspects saturn directly and saturn forms a fairly close sextile to the midheaven as well. saturn is in the sign capricorn, a place where saturn is said to work well and in the 12th it is said to be in it's house of joy. it is occidental to the sun which suggests less strength based on planetary phase.. i am not sure how many would view obama at this point, but i think a life of service to the public sphere thru politics is a good way to quickly describe it. going by whole-sign houses jupiter would be considered more 1st house in nature which is in keeping with my thought of jupiter being associated with politics in general..

have the 12th house planets in obama's chart been a blessing or a curse? maybe it isn't a fair question to ask.. is politics his undoing? i doubt it.. i think it is more his calling. saturn is ruler of his ascendant and placed in the 12th house in capricorn. his wife michelle has sun conjunct obamas 12th house saturn. we see a mix of what i was talking about upstream- the sun and saturn polarity which i described as representing a type of strength and weakness regardless of sign or house position, which can flip either way depending on the maturity of the people involved.. one sees these sun/saturn contacts in long term relationships quite often. here it is placed in obama's 12th house. michelles saturn is conjunct his ascendant and widely opposite his leo sun as well..

RaptInReverie said:

Waybread,

Oh yes, my friend, self-undoing can be caused by even the most harmonious and benign aspects and placements. When conditions are too accommodating, people become weakened much like the way muscles in a sedentary person atrophy over time. This form of self-undoing is just as insidious and detrimental as addictions and depression are. And that is not to mention pride, ignorance, indulgence, negligence, superficiality, and precipitousness--all of which can result from “good” aspects and placements. No, life is not nice at all, and I certainly don’t mean to imply that.
.

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Hello,

I'm new here and hope it is okay to jump in. I've got a 12th house stellium in Leo [Pluto-Saturn-Moon-Mars] squared by the 12th house's ruler, Sun in Taurus. I particularly agree with you regarding the causes of ill fortune. They may often result from beneficent or harmonious aspects because things are too easy; people get indolent and apathetic.

RaptInReverie said:

Waybread,I do agree, just as many others here, that the twelfth house is selfless. It is definitely not a house where the ego is in control, and it can be described as a house of service to others, which opens the path to spiritual maturity and development.

Click to expand...

I think this is a concise and accurate portrait of the 12th, and, to address an earlier post about why the 12th is described as weak, it is because the ego does not have any domain here, except to submit.

Thank you for articulating these points.

Ilene

IleneK said:

Hello,

I'm new here and hope it is okay to jump in. I've got a 12th house stellium in Leo [Pluto-Saturn-Moon-Mars] squared by the 12th house's ruler, Sun in Taurus. I particularly agree with you regarding the causes of ill fortune. They most often result from what may be called the beneficent or harmonious aspects because things are too easy; people get indolent and apathetic.



I think this is a concise and accurate portrait of the 12th, and, to address an earlier post about why the 12th is described as weak, it is because the ego does not have any domain here, except to submit.

Thank you for articulating these points.

Ilene

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Thank You!

Could you tell us more about how the 12th stellium plays out in your life. What has been your personal experience of the 12th? I have an aunt with a stellium of 4 planets in 12th - and she is very active and social in her community, friends and family - it is almost automatic for her to go out of her way to help out people and think nothing of it. She is one of the most clean hearted people I have seen, completely free from malice - though she does lose her temper suddenly and doesn't suffer fools gladly. She has many close friends and loves to socialize - I don't see any of the seclusion, isolation, institutions or self undoing. She works in retail, is happily married and two wonderful children.