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  #1  
Unread 07-03-2014, 03:12 PM
Inquirer Inquirer is offline
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Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

What does it mean when Saturn Conjunct Pluto is in the 12th house?

I did hear that it is a very brutal placement of one's chart, but how would it manifest itself in the 12th house? Could it be indicative of psychological problems?

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  #2  
Unread 07-03-2014, 10:15 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

A proper assessment requires that you post your chart.

If you will left-click on the first chart astro.com presents and then attach that chart it will be easy for everyone to read.
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  #3  
Unread 07-04-2014, 05:48 AM
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
A proper assessment requires that you post your chart.

If you will left-click on the first chart astro.com presents and then attach that chart it will be easy for everyone to read.
I do not have this placement.
This is not as much a reflection of my chart as it is more a question as to what this generally means as a whole for people's charts.
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  #4  
Unread 07-04-2014, 04:00 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

That's an interesting "General Question".

Unless you know someone born in 1983 (Libra), 1947 (Leo) or 1915 (Cancer). One in twelve of people born during those years had that placement. Otherwise, it applies to no one and you'll never see a chart with that configuration.

So the odds are really against your running into the position in any chart. It's a very very uncommon placement.

Unless, of course, you just "happen" to be acquainted with a person having that placement.

"...as it is more a question as to what this generally means as a whole for people's charts." Who are you trying to kid?

Any placement in any chart must be interpreted in the context of the chart taken as a whole. Out of context the symbols of astrology can take on so many forms (Robert Hand aptly uses the term "polymorphism") that any "general" interpretation must necessarily be meaningless in regard to some specific individual.

Here's what you do... Look up the meanings for:
1. Saturn conjunct Pluto
2. Saturn in Libra*
3. Pluto in Libra*
4. Saturn in the 12th House
5. Pluto in the 12th House...

Then synthesize these "meanings" into a statement about the person.

Of course you are lacking some information, such as:
Is the conjunction in direct or retrograde motion?
What is the condition of the sign ruler, Venus?
What aspects does the conjunction behold?
Which of the two planets is posited earlier in the zodiac? [Is Saturn applying to Pluto or separating from him?]
Is the conjunction close by the 12th or 1st cusps, or deeply embedded in the 12th?
What is the general tone of the horoscope in question?
And so forth.

*It may be that your interest is directed more toward one in twelve of those folks yet to be born with the conjunction in Capricorn (2020).

Last edited by greybeard; 07-04-2014 at 04:59 PM.
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  #5  
Unread 07-04-2014, 04:09 PM
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

Would anyone else have any ideas as to what this placement would mean or have any experiences with this placement?
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  #6  
Unread 07-05-2014, 09:25 PM
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

Hi. When Saturn and Pluto are linked, it suggests tension between the need to establish a definite sense of self (which generally includes a sense of some role to be fulfilled), and the need to express our primal survival instincts without obstruction. The tension arises because anything which becomes established inhibits our ability to respond spontaneously to threats, and because the free expression of primal feelings prevents anything becoming established.

This combination suggests a need to continually transform the things that we use to consolidate and define ourselves, and to allow our primitive side expression in our reality. Some people with this combination invest huge amounts of energy trying to remain in control, always feeling that the threat of annihilation is just around the corner.

The 12th house symbolises experiences of acting as an agent for the healing of the collectives of which we are part. It may feel like we are dealing with our own unconscious, but in this house we are very much connected with those around us. Some with Saturn Pluto in the 12th house come from a family where there is a big 'skeleton in the closet', and so everyone lives under the threat of sudden traumatic upheaval. Some with this placement are raised in a family which has been on the wrong end of the misuse of power in the past, and so again a sense of threat is embedded in the family psyche. Generally speaking, there will be something of a Saturn-Pluto flavour in the family psyche which needs to be redeemed, and it falls to the native to try to achieve this. The native is porous to Saturn-Pluto issues in any collective of which they are part throughout life - the family environment may be where this dynamic constellates in the psyche of the native, but the task of redeeming that kind of issue follows the native around. Strong transits and progressions to the natal conjunction (or perhaps strong transits of Saturn and/or Pluto to the natal chart in general) will tend to show the timing of periods where this dynamic comes to the fore.
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  #7  
Unread 07-06-2014, 08:04 AM
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inquirer View Post
Would anyone else have any ideas as to what this placement would mean or have any experiences with this placement?
That's a very, very specific placement to just ask about. Just saying.

Saturn/Pluto conjunction in the 12th, GENERALLY would not be easy, but that doesn't mean a hill of beans without a natal chart. Is Saturn in his own sign? What's the sect of the chart? Is Saturn in sect? Who aspects the conjunction by sign? By aspect? Are Saturn/Pluto alone in the sign? What does Saturn rule in the chart? Is Saturn in reception with another planet?

You can't interpret something like this by itself and you're going to want to look for something other than this in a chart for psychological problems.
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  #8  
Unread 07-06-2014, 10:02 AM
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inquirer View Post
Would anyone else have any ideas as to what this placement would mean or have any experiences with this placement?
SATURN SIGNIFICATIONS http://www.skyscript.co.uk/saturn.html


SIGNIFICATIONS OF THE 12 SIGNS
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aries.html

The 12th house represents matters that are hidden, restrained, secret,
incapable of action or of being fully understood
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h12.html


QUOTE

'....Traditionally, 12th is a wholly unfortunate house, associated with sad events, sorrow, anguish of mind, tribulation,
captivity, imprisonment, persecution, hard labour,
all manner of affliction and self-undoing.
12th represents places that are denied access to public view,
particularly those concerned with seclusion or isolation,
or where one is restricted from living a carefree life-style,
such as institutions or prisons.

Many sources attribute monasteries to the 12th house as places of isolation,
but otherwise monks and nuns belong to the 9th house
which represents religious concerns....'


QUOTE

'....12th has rulership over scandals generally,
personal fears and skeletons in the family closet.
12th has much to do with shame and the fear of future consequences
12th significations include secret, unknown enemies,
such men as maliciously undermine their neighbours or inform secretly against them: traitors, spies;
weakness, infirmity and bondage.
12th also rules great cattle, such as horses, oxen, elephants, of which Ezra notes "Those which serve as a mount for men".....'



by the way
the 'One-size-fits-all' School
of generalised astrology
is unreliable
and
the answers to your question require analysis of the natal chart as a whole
HOW TO PROCEED WHEN TWO OR MORE PLANETS OCCUPY A HOUSE
http://forumonastrology.com/foa/newmain.html


RELATIVE SIZE OF THE PLANETS

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #9  
Unread 07-06-2014, 07:00 PM
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

In thinking about the relationship of Saturn and Pluto (being slow moving), this is worth a read:

http://www.historicalastrology.com/p...s/saturnpluto/

I would think that, for a person with the conjunction, they may be a direct connection (however big or small) to the re-organization of power structures evident in their society at the time.

My mother was born near the conjunction in Leo in 1947, and she was one of the first people to engage in the "hippie movement" before it became popular or well-known. She was also acutely aware of propaganda against communism growing up, government control and rise of consumerism, leading her to try to break away from mainstream lifestyles and find spiritual and economic freedom. But, she never really escaped as she hoped she could, because a lot of the things she was running away from were a part of herself.

It might be useful to think of the person in terms of what Saturn and Pluto mean on a larger scale and how it might show their reaction to the circumstances they were born into.

Currently, those born in 1982 would be 32 years old. They would have graduated in 2000 in the US just before 9/11. They are likely the first young soldiers to be involved in the Iraq war in the US (being 18 just as it started) and came of age just as gay marriage became a possibility. I'd expect those with the 1982 Saturn/Pluto conjunction born in the US to be "heralds" of the over-arching social issues of their time (in Libra, especially ones pertaining to war vs. peace), intimately affected by them, depending on the rest of the chart.

Last edited by Flapjacks; 07-06-2014 at 07:04 PM.
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  #10  
Unread 07-06-2014, 08:06 PM
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

Yes, Flapjack makes a really important point that regardless of which house Saturn is placed in, this planet brings to our attention the authority of the state, which comes with its own set of values - a kind of collective ego. Some with Saturn Pluto aspects (especially hard major aspects) may side with the status quo and try to quash anything which threatens it (often becoming savagely Plutonian in the process, despite their valuing of proper conduct); while some side with the Plutonian passions lurking within collective consciousness and go all out to challenge the status quo and the authority which seeks to preserve it (often becoming very rigid and controlling in the way they go about it). Both planets work together - if the native disowns one, it will still make its presence felt as the owned planet is expressed.

When the aspect is wide, the connection is less compelling. Where it is a soft aspect, the tension may not be so great. Progression of one planet to the natal position of the other is not very relevant because it is so slow with these planets. But solar arc directions, at around one degree of arc per year, could be significant; for example, if the orb is 5 degrees, then one planet will reach the other by solar arc around age 5 years. Transits can be very significant if the orb is wide at birth, especially if it is transiting Pluto that conjuncts natal Saturn after birth, rather than the other way around.

Greybeard reminds us that retrogradation may be signficant. When these planets are around a conjunction with one another, Saturn is retrograde for most of the time that Pluto is retrograde. And of course a particular sign is emphasised, which says a lot about what types of social values are under the intense spotlight of this transiting conjunction. The house placement of the conjunction in a natal chart, and also aspects to more personal planets, shows how the changes - or the frustration of the need for change will affect the native on a personal level, and how the native may play a part in bringing the changes about. A native who has Mercury aspecting the conjunction may study social taboos and write about them in a way which helps to provoke change, and perhaps to establish a new order to some extent. Venus may challenge people's notions of relationships. And so on. Because of course after the initial hit of the transit itself, which makes its presence felt according to the aspects it makes to the natal charts of individuals, nation states, etc., the entities born under the transit grow up and continue the process of restructuring.
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  #11  
Unread 03-30-2018, 07:33 PM
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

I have this placement.

12th house: Libra
Saturn: 28* Libra, approaching ASC (Sco 7*)
Pluto: 24* Libra

Both square Sun in 29* Cancer, 9th house (conj MC 4*Leo)

The upcoming Capricorn Saturn/Pluto conjunction in 2020 will form a T-square to this, from my 3rd house.

What can I expect from this?
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  #12  
Unread 09-13-2018, 06:34 AM
GemwDepth GemwDepth is offline
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

Saturn Pluto aspect in the 12th house can be hidden anger and violence, that's ready to erupt given the chance. Of course that depends on how things are aspected. Suggest to look at OJ Simpson's chart for comparison, he has exactly the same configuration. Negatively, the previous applies. Positively given good aspects like trines and sextiles, I would think it means you like to control from behind the scenes, but the motive may not always be sinister. Or you may belong to secret organizations where you could weld a lot of power and authority.

Last edited by GemwDepth; 09-13-2018 at 06:37 AM.
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  #13  
Unread 09-13-2018, 08:56 AM
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

Mine is opposite house,6th and orb is wide near 8 Deg.
Saturn Conjunction Pluto in Libra.
Saturn Exalted in 5th but Pluto in 6th.

I don't have any psychological problem.
At least I see myself that way.
http://imgur.com/hCRDawD

Last edited by Somna7H; 09-13-2018 at 11:34 AM.
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  #14  
Unread 09-13-2018, 12:45 PM
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

What does it mean to have this aspect in the first house in libra? Square venus Cancer in 10?
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  #15  
Unread 09-13-2018, 02:42 PM
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

Without a chart there is no way to determine if its meanignful or not.


If one does not know how powerful and goodly/badly placed Saturn is; If one does not know how how powerful and goodly/badly placed Pluto is; if one does not know the power and goodness/difficulty of the 12th house,


Then its simply not possible to know if this is a difficult placement in a particular life or whether is not really much of an issue.


Astrology is way more difficult and complicated than a cookbook definition might be. However, if that is what you want, then I suggest that you purchase a copy of Rob Hand's Planets in Aspect(which can be found for as little as $3.49US at https://www.amazon.com/Planets-Aspec...40_&dpSrc=srch), and look it up.



Samantha
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Unread 09-13-2018, 05:07 PM
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

If anyone would like to give their opinion on Saturn finicky Pluto in the first house I would be grateful.

I think everyone has got the point about cookbook astrology. But if 12th house is hidden things, does the first house make it even more prominent?

I do have a chart in mind but I would not like to share it publically

Also, with the conjunction happening in 2020, I think it will be interesting to look at charts that have this conjunction natally but I am unsure about sharing the chart I have.
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Unread 09-13-2018, 09:30 PM
GemwDepth GemwDepth is offline
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samantha Bean View Post
Without a chart there is no way to determine if its meanignful or not.


If one does not know how powerful and goodly/badly placed Saturn is; If one does not know how how powerful and goodly/badly placed Pluto is; if one does not know the power and goodness/difficulty of the 12th house,


Then its simply not possible to know if this is a difficult placement in a particular life or whether is not really much of an issue.


Astrology is way more difficult and complicated than a cookbook definition might be. However, if that is what you want, then I suggest that you purchase a copy of Rob Hand's Planets in Aspect(which can be found for as little as $3.49US at https://www.amazon.com/Planets-Aspec...40_&dpSrc=srch), and look it up.



Samantha

My take is that having a planet like Saturn conjunct Pluto is always going to be a "harder" aspect of life due to the nature of the planets. There is no going around this. Its Saturn on Pluto! But other configurations can dominate the personality, and house placement can subjugate it. And since the OP was asking about the 12th house, it would be hidden but still manifest in other forms.
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Unread 09-13-2018, 09:35 PM
GemwDepth GemwDepth is offline
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ukpoohbear View Post
If anyone would like to give their opinion on Saturn finicky Pluto in the first house I would be grateful.

I think everyone has got the point about cookbook astrology. But if 12th house is hidden things, does the first house make it even more prominent?

I do have a chart in mind but I would not like to share it publically

Also, with the conjunction happening in 2020, I think it will be interesting to look at charts that have this conjunction natally but I am unsure about sharing the chart I have.
I can only give you experiences with those who have it. One is a libra ascendant, stellium in scorpio, and cancer moon in 10th. At first glance, the libra / cancer side shows up first, and he presents himself as a charming, sweet, nice guy.

Upon closer interaction, you realize he doesn't really do anything unless it benefits himself. Although charming and subtle, he knows what he wants and he goes after it in an unobtrusive, way that also seem rather determined, if not overt. Upon closer conversation, the personality structure is clearer, and the rest is all fluff.

My take is that it adds a quiet strength but also selfishness to the personality. Depending on how its aspected.

The other person I know who has it has it opposes her sun in the 7th. She presents herself at first glance as fragile and feminine and goes for dominating men, at least when I know her. Years later I came upon her profile again and she seemed to have done a complete Plutonian transformation (dyed black hair, dominating persona, an image revamp). I lost touch with her and don't know what happened after that. I suspect she embraced her "male" side (sun oppose pluto) and went full-on dominatrix (using it as adjective, not lifestyle).

Last edited by GemwDepth; 09-13-2018 at 09:41 PM.
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Unread 09-13-2018, 09:48 PM
GemwDepth GemwDepth is offline
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ukpoohbear View Post
If anyone would like to give their opinion on Saturn finicky Pluto in the first house I would be grateful.

I think everyone has got the point about cookbook astrology. But if 12th house is hidden things, does the first house make it even more prominent?

I do have a chart in mind but I would not like to share it publically

Also, with the conjunction happening in 2020, I think it will be interesting to look at charts that have this conjunction natally but I am unsure about sharing the chart I have.
You mentioned the conjunction is in the first house. Does the chart have ASC in libra?
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  #20  
Unread 09-13-2018, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GemwDepth View Post
I can only give you experiences with those who have it. One is a libra ascendant, stellium in scorpio, and cancer moon in 10th. At first glance, the libra / cancer side shows up first, and he presents himself as a charming, sweet, nice guy.

Upon closer interaction, you realize he doesn't really do anything unless it benefits himself. Although charming and subtle, he knows what he wants and he goes after it in an unobtrusive, way that also seem rather determined, if not overt. Upon closer conversation, the personality structure is clearer, and the rest is all fluff.

My take is that it adds a quiet strength but also selfishness to the personality. Depending on how its aspected.

The other person I know who has it has it opposes her sun in the 7th. She presents herself at first glance as fragile and feminine and goes for dominating men, at least when I know her. Years later I came upon her profile again and she seemed to have done a complete Plutonian transformation (dyed black hair, dominating persona, an image revamp). I lost touch with her and don't know what happened after that. I suspect she embraced her "male" side (sun oppose pluto) and went full-on dominatrix (using it as adjective, not lifestyle).
Thanks so much for those descriptions. I can relate them to the person the chart I have is about. The sweet persona but the selfish determination underneath.
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  #21  
Unread 09-13-2018, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GemwDepth View Post
You mentioned the conjunction is in the first house. Does the chart have ASC in libra?
Yes asc is Libra and similar to your first example. Will I send you it privately? I donít mind continuing the discussion public but not to share the chart.
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  #22  
Unread 09-13-2018, 10:58 PM
GemwDepth GemwDepth is offline
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ukpoohbear View Post
Yes asc is Libra and similar to your first example. Will I send you it privately? I don’t mind continuing the discussion public but not to share the chart.
Yes please do. It would be interesting for me to look at. I can be more "honest" privately than publicly. And it will be 100% private regardless of who this person is to you.
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  #23  
Unread 09-15-2018, 04:30 AM
wan wan is offline
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

I don't understand some of the people in this thread. They keep crying, "but but but we need a full chart to explain it!!" This is dumb because there is tons of stuff out there that deal with a planet aspecting another planet, "what does it mean when your Sun sextiles your mars" or "how to interpret Pluto trine Moon" and none of them demands that people post a full chart. Sure maybe the stuff they talk about is not as detailed as it could be, but this is fine because this is what the original poster wanted. He/she just wanted some general info on this particular aspect, nothing too in-depth. So why can't you just oblige?

Last edited by wan; 09-15-2018 at 04:32 AM.
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  #24  
Unread 09-15-2018, 05:22 AM
GemwDepth GemwDepth is offline
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

Well both approaches are rational. The thing is we have astrologers of various levels on this forum, some are more thorough than others. The more advanced astrologers have their own, practiced methodology to readings, and prefer using their personal methodology. Its just what they are used to. That requires looking at the whole chart, as they will rank strength and gauge effects depending on detailed aspects. Students of other levels can contribute using personal experience, their memory of celebrity charts, or intuitive interpretation - on just the aspect asked for. So all levels essentially adds to the knowledge and not one approach is necessarily "correct" or "incorrect".

Last edited by GemwDepth; 09-15-2018 at 09:12 PM.
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  #25  
Unread 09-15-2018, 07:41 AM
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Re: Saturn Conjunct Pluto in the 12th house

Wan, what is your problem? Nobody has been crying over this thread as far as I can make out. Misrepresenting people's responses and using words like 'dumb' gives the impression that you aren't putting forward a considered viewpoint, but rather that something has pushed a button for you. Since there is so much stuff out there about isolated placements, its better that a forum like this focuses on chart synthesis and discussing how the native brings the chart to life.
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