When to use Equal House System

waybread said:

Again how many politicians would have a 12th house MC in whole signs?

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Only those born in far northern countries. Where lots of people, not just politicians, have their MC in the twelfth house whole sign.

This discussion got me wondering about the prevalence of alcoholism in countries where MC in the twelfth sign is a significant possibility. According to my searches, the countries with the highest rates of alcoholism are heavily skewed to northern Europe. All but one of the top five are part of the former Soviet Union.

Of course, cultural and economic factors are at play here.

The point I was trying to make was that the MC in his twelfth house whole sign contributes to a more loaded twelfth house. Not that it's the sole reason his twelfth house would be up, but it injects a bit more twelfth house type energy.

waybread said:

I found another one, former Swedish prime minister Olof Palme https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Palme,_Olof

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Palme's end sounds very twelfth house, too. Shot in the back, and the killer's conviction overturned for lack of evidence.

Even his early life sounds like it has the twelfth house stamped on it. Father died during his childhood, mother sent him to live with relatives in another country. That's an exile experience.

As this thread as exemplified, there are a number of very strong cases not only for the equal house system, but many of the other prevalent house systems as well.

Based on what you've communicated on your other threads, it sounds like you're getting to the point of information overload. You're just going to have to bite the bullet and pick the methodology that you find makes the most philosophical and logical sense to you and begin your practice of reading charts. Recording the results of your chart readings and making comparisons between the different methodologies that you also find worth trying out. Now might be the stage where the sword of experience needs to be implemented to cut away all the dross and streamline and solidify your learning.

Personally, I see validity in my chart in both the whole sign house system, and the placidus system - the two house systems that I've chosen as my primary ways of viewing my chart westernly. I also see great validity in jyotish, too. This approach might irk someone who believes that there is one and only one way of interfacing something as multifaceted and multidimensional as astrology. But life really does take on a different cast depending on the vantage point that you're viewing it from, and so does the astrological chart.

Osamenor said:

Only those born in far northern countries. Where lots of people, not just politicians, have their MC in the twelfth house whole sign.

This discussion got me wondering about the prevalence of alcoholism in countries where MC in the twelfth sign is a significant possibility. According to my searches, the countries with the highest rates of alcoholism are heavily skewed to northern Europe. All but one of the top five are part of the former Soviet Union.

Of course, cultural and economic factors are at play here.

The point I was trying to make was that the MC in his twelfth house whole sign contributes to a more loaded twelfth house. Not that it's the sole reason his twelfth house would be up, but it injects a bit more twelfth house type energy.

Palme's end sounds very twelfth house, too. Shot in the back, and the killer's conviction overturned for lack of evidence.

Even his early life sounds like it has the twelfth house stamped on it. Father died during his childhood, mother sent him to live with relatives in another country. That's an exile experience.

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Hi, Osamenor-- I'm not being critical, just enjoying a debate with some meat on its bones (apologies to all vegans present,) because it raises some much bigger issues. This is how I learn.

I normally use Placidus for nativities, unless there's a good reason not to, like a "fuzzy" birth time. Or a really skewed high-latitude chart, but in which case I'd probably look at different house options, such as whole signs.

But if we think about it, in the Far North, the sun might be above the horizon in winter for only a few hours per day. In summer, it might be below the horizon for only a few hours per day. The ancient Hellenistic astrologers, who essentially developed under our horoscope, knew about high latitudes but they weren't casting charts for their inhabitants. I don't think our horoscope actually works really well at high latitudes, no matter which system we used. It can't work for someone born above the Arctic Circle at a solstice.

Traditionally the 4th house or the 8th house indicated the end of life, not so much the 12th. Then with both of these prime ministers, we're left explaining why their lives were so successful before a 12th house Bitter End kicked in.

Here's a somewhat different chart, for the actress/dancer/singer Ann-Margret. She was born in Sweden, but unlike Olof Palme or Ahti Karjalainen, she spent most of her life in the US. Where one might wonder what her relocated chart looks like.

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ann-Margret

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann-Margret

She also became an alcoholic, but her MC is in the whole signs 8th house, not the 12th. She does have a big 12th house stellium. Her Placidus 6th and 12th houses are enormous, with 3 intercepted signs apiece. This gives her Saturn (Capricorn) as ruler of 3 houses, and the moon as ruler of 3 houses (Cancer.)

People born at high latitudes can have both a lot of intercepted signs and duplicate signs.

I honestly don't know whether a 12th house MC was a common placement for Scandinavian politicians or not. This would take some research.

Also, whether cultural reasons account for high rates of alcoholism. Drinking rates are extremely low in Muslim countries, for example, but this has nothing to do with latitude. Possibly the problem is the shortage of sunlight. Russian drinking includes a lot of vodka, knocked back as straight shots, not the Mediterranean lighter custom of wine-drinking.

Then, why should two different house systems "work"-- or not, at all? The failure of astrologers to agree on a valid house system fired up astrology's critics in past centuries.

Conspiracy theorist, I also see validity in both my Placidus and whole signs natal charts. They give very different pictures; but then, like a photograph of a face, it will look different depending upon whether it's a profile or a full-face view.

Then again, Regiomontanus is the preferred traditional system in horary.

waybread said:

Hi, Osamenor-- I'm not being critical, just enjoying a debate with some meat on its bones (apologies to all vegans present,) because it raises some much bigger issues. This is how I learn.

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I'm enjoying it too, for the same reasons. Didn't think you were being critical at all.

waybread said:

The ancient Hellenistic astrologers, who essentially developed under our horoscope, knew about high latitudes but they weren't casting charts for their inhabitants. I don't think our horoscope actually works really well at high latitudes, no matter which system we used. It can't work for someone born above the Arctic Circle at a solstice.

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That's a question I've had about astrology ever since I first started learning about it. How the heck does it work for people born at high latitudes? Surely it does work--they have the same kinds of human experiences as everyone else--but the houses are so skewed that they don't make sense.

waybread said:

But if we think about it, in the Far North, the sun might be above the horizon in winter for only a few hours per day. In summer, it might be below the horizon for only a few hours per day.

Also, whether cultural reasons account for high rates of alcoholism. Drinking rates are extremely low in Muslim countries, for example, but this has nothing to do with latitude. Possibly the problem is the shortage of sunlight. Russian drinking includes a lot of vodka, knocked back as straight shots, not the Mediterranean lighter custom of wine-drinking.

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The part about summer and winter hours, I actually included when I was initially writing my last post, but deleted it in the interest of brevity and clarity. I, too, think the lack of sunlight in the winter--and constant daylight in the summer, too--might be a factor. No sunlight in the winter would increase the likelihood of seasonal depression. Long daylight hours in the summer also throw the body clock. The summer I was in the Yukon and Alaska--16 years ago now--I didn't sleep that much, and didn't want to. When the sun is shining as brightly at 11:00 pm as at noon, it doesn't feel like bedtime. When the sun never sets at all, which it doesn't in the Alaskan Interior in June and July, there isn't much of a natural signal to slow down and sleep. It's more like taking an afternoon nap, no matter what time of night it is.

Right--as a student I spent two field seasons in the Canadian Arctic, just below the Arctic Circle. The sun did set, but it never got really dark-- more like twilight. I liked it, but then I wasn't there during winter.

The interesting thing, is when we look at the UN's happiness index, the Scandinavian countries generally rate at the top. Canada is #7, whereas the US is only #18. The measures obviously don't relate to latitude, and I think there are some anomalies (like Israel at #11. I don't think Israelis are so happy, but they discourage whining and complaining.) The reasons include a strong social safety net, low government corruption, and per capita income. But a high latitude apparently doesn't prevent happiness.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/03/these-are-the-happiest-countries-in-the-world/

I have a special interest in the origins of horoscopic astrology. I note that Ptolemy (Tetrabiblos, ca. 150 CE) scarcely used houses, but instead used planetary positions to determine all kinds of things about human lives that today, would be matters for houses. I'm not suggesting we all revert to Hellenistic astrology, just that methods are out there to say a lot about people without houses.

If we think about the true Arctic when the sun doesn't rise during the winter solstice period, degrees still rise, so we nonetheless can locate the ascendant. (I think-- I'm not clear on how this would work with signs of long and short ascension.) We could do whole signs. We just couldn't assume that houses 12-7 represented daylight hours.

Fundamentally what we are left with, is planetary relationships. Sun square Uranus still happens and still has meaning.

I NEEDED the Whole-sign House method to even begin taking the Houses seriously. Placidus definitely wasn't describing my situation, so I concentrated on Signs, rulership, and Aspects. I didn't know about Whole-sign until I joined this Community (thanks, J.A.!). The Houses finally clicked into place for me, when it came to my own Chart.
But, now I see that Placidus works in so many Charts, I actually start with that, and change to Whole-sign when Placidus obviously isn't working. Looking back, I can see now that I started out on a life-path where Placidus was correct for me, but I changed paths to one best described by Whole-sign. It was AFTER I'd already made the change, that I began really studying Astrology, and was using my own Chart to test the validity of the many Astrological techniques. So, for any new Astrologers, don't limit your judgement about what "works" and what doesn't to your own Natal-chart!

waybread said:

Conspiracy theorist, I also see validity in both my Placidus and whole signs natal charts. They give very different pictures; but then, like a photograph of a face, it will look different depending upon whether it's a profile or a full-face view.

Then again, Regiomontanus is the preferred traditional system in horary.

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Regiomontanus' popularity in horary readings has more to do with people following William Lily than in it necessarily being the most effective house system to use for horary. With its proliferation back during Lily's time, it would also seem to be the case that Lily used what was available, than a careful survey of options that we are able to enjoy.



With that, I've gotten good results in horary by sticking to Placidus, and then you have those who use whole sign houses and are able to divine effectively.



I think for any explanation for why two separate house systems, and even two totally disparate systems of astrology are able to describe the same object/subject adequately, one would have to be open to explanations of a more esoteric nature. Phenomena such as engramming, egregores, synchronicity and the nature of consciousness would have to be accounted for in a way that is digestible/intelligible for an intelligent layperson for astrology to be accepted on a large scale in our current world. Engramming and egregores are within the realm of metaphysics/magic so that will be disregarded as bunk, Jung is looked at with heavy skepticism, and scientists are stumped on what Consciousness actually is. It's proven that consciousness has an effect at the quantum level, and a heavy component of divination (astrology) is the consciousness of the reader. If this sounds too speculative for you, I'd understand, but I don't think the explanations that we currently have at hand are adequate enough to really settle the issue of what makes all these different ways of interfacing with astrology work.

Some good thoughts, CT.

I really think that to explain how astrology "works," assuming it does, we have to think beyond the box of planets directly influencing human behaviour, along with signs and houses. Planets have some objective reality, but not their symbolisms. Signs and houses are mathematical constructs with no objective existence. Even the constellations for which signs were named were merely an ancient form of story-telling.

Something else is going on. To my thinking, we have to look at the astrologer interacting with the horoscope as a form of graphic communication.

Once we accept the Traditional notion that Houses represent Areas of Life, we can argue about their labels and meanings, and whether they connect with particular Signs (Modern) or are only affected by Angularity (Traditional). But, the perception that different House systems work for different Charts, PRESUPPOSES that Astrology itself "works", and I'm entirely comfortable with the life-path choices we make as the explanation for why the Houses can be configured differently and still be correct.

waybread said:

Some good thoughts, CT.

I really think that to explain how astrology "works," assuming it does, we have to think beyond the box of planets directly influencing human behaviour, along with signs and houses. Planets have some objective reality, but not their symbolisms. Signs and houses are mathematical constructs with no objective existence. Even the constellations for which signs were named were merely an ancient form of story-telling.

Something else is going on. To my thinking, we have to look at the astrologer interacting with the horoscope as a form of graphic communication.

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Our Hellenistic-astrologer, petosiris, came up with what I consider a brilliant reason for why Astrologers can make Astrology work for themselves.

david starling said:

Our Hellenistic-astrologer, petosiris, came up with what I consider a brilliant reason
for why Astrologers can make Astrology work for themselves.

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Despite what you consider "the brilliant reason"
you failed to mention
the actual "brilliant reason" itself

JUPITERASC said:

Despite what you consider "the brilliant reason"
you failed to mention
the actual "brilliant reason" itself

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It's in his "7 Reasons" Thread. Pretty sure waybread got something out of it.