Signs of long and short ascencion

Appollonnia

Well-known member
Hi I've been reading about the qualities of the signs and I'm kind of stuck with the signs of short and long ascencion.

I don't really understand what this means:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Signs of Long Ascension. These are (for those of us in the Northern Hemisphere): Cancer, Leo, Virgo, Libra,Scorpio, and Sagittarius. When planets apply to a sextile from within signs of long ascension, the sextile acts as a square, and when they apply to a square, the square acts as a trine. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Signs of Short Ascension. Again, in the Northern Hemisphere: Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces, Aries, Taurus, and Gemini. In these signs, squares act as sextiles, and trines as squares.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the Southern Hemisphere, these signs are reversed, i.e., our signs of long ascension are their signs of short ascension, while our signs of short ascension are their signs of long ascension. Marc Edmund Jones said that an emphasis on signs of long ascension in a horary chart indicate show a course of development that is more solid and unhurried. An emphasis on signs of short ascension can show rapid development, impulsive action.[/FONT]

http://mithras93.tripod.com/lessons/lesson4/lesson4.html

I don't understand the sextile acting as a square, and when they apply to a square, the square acts as a trine.

Plus when do you use this if ever, in horary astrology ?

Thank you.
 

BobZemco

Well-known member
I don't understand the sextile acting as a square, and when they apply to a square, the square acts as a trine.

I think it might be a misunderstanding.

Lily mentions it only once in all of his works. He says something about Mercury in the 11th in square with Jupiter in the Ascendant is actually in trine because both Mercury and Jupiter are in Signs of Long Ascension.

But when you look at the chart (it's an horary about a ship at sea whether it's lost or still afloat and sailing to port), they're in trine, not square. They only thing I can think of is they're looking at aspects by house or sign instead of degree. The 2nd and 12th Houses are inconjunct the 1st House, the 11th and 3rd Houses are sextile the 1st House, the 4th and 10th House are square the 1st House etc, but then that doesn't make any sense because most consider the 9th House inconjunct the Ascendant.

When I look at the chart that he refers to, it has Cancer on the 1st House, Cancer on the 12th House, Gemini intercepted in the 12th House, Taurus on the 11th House and Aries on the 10th House.

Aries and Cancer are both Cardinal Signs and square each other, but Mercury is at 28 Aries and Jupiter in the 1st house is actually at 28 Leo, so it's [Fire] Trine.

I don't know what to think and I've never actually used it. If you find one, point it out to someone so everyone can have a go at it.
 

Appollonnia

Well-known member
Thank you BobZemco, always so helpful.

I just found something in another website. It says that signs of long and short ascencion are especially used for progressions. As people with ascendants in signs of long ascencion will remain in their signs for longer periods of time.

I guess it's not that important in horary astrology and I'll be sure to post a chart if I ever find one.

Thank you.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Lilly is referencing Greek doctrines re equipollent and "like-engirdling" signs, which, to those old timers, was an important element in delineation: see especially Paulus Alexandrianus "Late Classical Astrology"; also, to a lesser extent some of explanations in Al-Biruni's "Elements". With the Greco-romans, at least during the first 5 centuries AD, position moreso than degree-aspect, seemed (in my take on the literature) to receive a great deal of emphasis in delineation; searching especially for "connections" (along the lines of the concept of conjunction) seemed to have been given a great deal of importance: actual degree conjunctions, but also the monomoiria connections, parallels of declination (and even, sometimes, of latitude), mutual reception, "conjunction" via equipollency, "sign" conjunctions (yes, they often regarded 2 planets in the same sign as conjunct even if one planet was at, say, 5 degrees and the other was at 25 degrees), and "conjunct"-like connections even by Egyptian or Pauline dodekatemorion ramification (see especially the P. Alexandiranus material on this topic) When we study the early authors (other than Ptolemy), such as Antiochus of Athens, Valens, Firmicus Maternus, Manilius, the remnants of the Nechepso/Petosiris handbook (150BC Alexandria), Dorotheus of Sidon, Paulus Alexandrianus, Olympiodorus, Rhetorius the Egyptian, Aratus, etc, we find (at least I found) some concepts which were very important to them, but which have been either radically altered, or altogether forgotten, over the many centuries since those times. The start of big changes I trace to modifications made by the early Islamic "Arabs" in molding astrological concepts and practices into a sytem along strictly Ptolemiac lines, then continuing with further modifications and eliminations, during the Enlightenment time, through the influences of Jerome Cardan and Kepler and Morin de Villefranche on the Continent, and William Lilly and his successors, in the English speaking world.
 
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BobZemco

Well-known member
seemed to have been given a great deal of importance: actual degree conjunctions, but also the monomoiria connections, parallels of declination (and even, sometimes, of latitude), mutual reception, "conjunction" via equipollency, "sign" conjunctions (yes, they often regarded 2 planets in the same sign as conjunct even if one planet was at, say, 5 degrees and the other was at 25 degrees)

I use degree rulers (the monomoiria) and I know you pay attention to declination, but what have you seen with "same sign conjunctions?" Is there anything to that?
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
I use degree rulers (the monomoiria) and I know you pay attention to declination, but what have you seen with "same sign conjunctions?" Is there anything to that?


I have applied sign/conjunction particularly for Lots/Parts, and also when I use Pauline dodekatemorion connection/ramifications; I believe I have seen definite results in these circumstances when applying conjunction by sign. My experience with planet to planet "conjunction in sign" has been more limited, since I almost always limit myself here to conjunction by degree (or, of course, parallel of declination) Also with stars, I do not apply the "conjunction in sign" concept, instead exclusively applying degree conjunction or parallel of declination(sometimes also parallel of latitude)

With other aspects involving planet to planet, I definitely believe I have seen significant results (regarding indications) when applying "aspect by sign" (rather than by degree): I can say this with certainty from my experiences relative to opposition, square, trine -regarding sextiles it has been less clear.

Regarding these "aspects by sign", I have almost-not quite, but almost-come to regard them as equal (in accuracy when delineating influences) to aspect by degree; however, with all of these "by sign" relationships (conjunctions, oppositions, trines, etc), except when delineating Parts/Lots or Pauline dodek ramifications, I still consider them more as secondary or "hidden" connections/influences, to be applied if and when searching for less obvious indications potentially operative in a given chart.

As you know, Vedic astrology exclusively determines aspects by sign, and never by degree. I believe Vedic astrology picked this practice up from early Greek influences. If we credit jyotish with effectiveness (I certainly do), we must then acknowledge that this "aspect by sign" method seems to work for them.
 
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tikana

Well-known member
I think it might be a misunderstanding.

Lily mentions it only once in all of his works. He says something about Mercury in the 11th in square with Jupiter in the Ascendant is actually in trine because both Mercury and Jupiter are in Signs of Long Ascension.

But when you look at the chart (it's an horary about a ship at sea whether it's lost or still afloat and sailing to port), they're in trine, not square. They only thing I can think of is they're looking at aspects by house or sign instead of degree. The 2nd and 12th Houses are inconjunct the 1st House, the 11th and 3rd Houses are sextile the 1st House, the 4th and 10th House are square the 1st House etc, but then that doesn't make any sense because most consider the 9th House inconjunct the Ascendant.

When I look at the chart that he refers to, it has Cancer on the 1st House, Cancer on the 12th House, Gemini intercepted in the 12th House, Taurus on the 11th House and Aries on the 10th House.

Aries and Cancer are both Cardinal Signs and square each other, but Mercury is at 28 Aries and Jupiter in the 1st house is actually at 28 Leo, so it's [Fire] Trine.

I don't know what to think and I've never actually used it. If you find one, point it out to someone so everyone can have a go at it.


not exactly true

in horary Will I buy Mr B's house he used long/short ascension aspects along with almutens
 

Senecar

Well-known member
Just read "the Asc in sign of short ascension" is negative in readings. - The Text Book of Astrology by A.J. Pearce
 

Senecar

Well-known member
What’s the reasoning behind it?


I think it is just one of the ancient astrological aphorisms collected and edited in one of the famous Medieval (1600s) astrologer's book (Ramesey's "Rules for Electing Times for All Manner of Works"). I am also wondering about the reasons or logic behind it.
 

Chrysalis

Well-known member
Thought id bump this thread rather than making another one...

Does anybody use this method of long/short ascension in horary ?

I understand how it works, but i've never applied it myself.
 

petosiris

Banned
Just read "the Asc in sign of short ascension" is negative in readings. - The Text Book of Astrology by A.J. Pearce

Short ascension signs are actually better according to Dorotheus and Hephaistio. They say that signs that rise long (and are ''straight'' rather than ''crooked'') indicate prolonged and delayed matters. I think it is probably better to differentiate three groups of four than just two of six - so there are short, middle and tall. However, they do not appear to have used this as mundane aspects, they talked just about the rising sign. The first mention of such use is in Paulus Alexandrinus I believe.
 
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Senecar

Well-known member
Short ascension signs are actually better according to Dorotheus and Hephaistio. They say that signs that rise long (and are ''straight'' rather than ''crooked'') indicate prolonged and delayed matters. I think it is probably better to differentiate three groups of four than just two of six - so there are short, middle and tall. However, they do not appear to have used this as mundane aspects, they talked just about the rising sign. The first mention of such use is in Paulus Alexandrinus I believe.

Interesting. Do you have source reference for the claim, and perhaps explanation for why it makes sense? Because if that's the case, then if the chart is about good events, then it is better to be ASC in long ascension signs, but difficult events would be better in short signs.

I recall from Ramesey's aphorism, he says that if ASC is afflicted, and also in short ascension signs, then it will causeth fire to the event = whatever that means, but I sense negativity in that aphorism.
 
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petosiris

Banned
Interesting. Do you have source reference for the claim, and perhaps explanation for why it makes sense? Because if that's the case, then if the chart is about good events, then it is better to be ASC in long ascension signs, but difficult events would be better in short signs.

I recall from Ramesey's aphorism, he says that if ASC is afflicted, and also in short ascension signs, then it will causeth fire to the event = whatever that means, but I sense negativity in that aphorism.

''Chapter 2. Judgment according to the crooked and the straight.
Look concerning each commencement there is to the sign which is rising at that hour, whether it is one of the straight in rising or one of the crooked. If it is one of the straight in rising, then this action will be difficult [and] slow, in which there will be misery and misfortune and trouble... If the ascendent is one of the signs straight in rising and there happens to be in it any one of the malefics or they aspect it, slowness occurs in this action and trouble and pain. If you find the benefics and the malefics together in the ascendent or they aspect the ascendent, then know that this action will be middling with a mixture of good and evil in it.'' - Book 5.2, translation by David Pingree

I prefer the Dorotheus aphorism as it is more reasonable. No one likes delayed and prolonged affairs, and a slow rising sign is symbolic of that. I will note that is a minor thing compared to the angles, especially the I and X, the Sun and the Moon. The nature of the rising sign and the sign of the Moon are the next thing to look and the Lot.
 
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