Ancient Texts Support MERCURY As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY

waybread said:

Sect is irrelevant.

JUPITERASC said:

on the contrary

Traditional astrological SECT is foundational

.

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waybread said:

JA, I am just looking at your thread title.
You wrote it, not me.

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Siriusly Duh, uh

waybread said:

Maybe you should ask one of the moderators
to change your thread title
to better indicate whatever it was you actually had in mind.

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You were once a moderator on our forum WB
perhaps
you should request to return to being a moderator
so that
you can alter thread titles at will

ALTERNATIVELY
you are free to commence your own thread
to better indicate whatever it was you actually had in mind
because
the title of this thread requires no alteration

waybread said:

Sect has nothing to do with Mercury as the traditional ruler of astrology.

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on the contrary WB

SECT has EVERYTHING to do with traditional astrology
and
clearly
MERCURY is the TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY
and
obviously SECT is pivotal


.

Don't get so huffy, JA.

Quite simply, sect and essential dignities and debilities have zero to do with why Mercury is the traditional planetary ruler of astrology. All of the traditional planets have these in one form or another. The question is why Mercury instead of some other planet.

There is an interesting Sumerian hymn to the goddess Nisaba (Nidaba) who is the Mesopotamian prototype of Mercury. Like Virgo, which Mercury rules, Nisaba ruled grain and grain stores, essential to the early city-states.
http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/amgg/listofdeities/nidaba/index.html

From the need to keep track of grain tributes, Nisaba became the ruler of accounting. This was an early scribal function, so she became the patron of scribes. Keeping track of stars and planets was another scribal function.
"Lady coloured like the stars of heaven, {holding} {(3 mss. have instead perfectly endowed with} a lapis-lazuli tablet!

[The god Enki] "has opened up Nisaba's house of learning, and has placed the lapis-lazuli tablet on her knees, for her to consult the holy tablet of the heavenly stars."
https://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.4.16.1#

The Sumerians developed the sexagesimal (base-60) arithmetic system that is the basis for our 360 degree horoscope and compass bearings, hours, and minutes.

With the passage of time, Nisaba was "demoted" to being the wife of the Babylonian god Nabu (Nebo,) who took over her functions and became the prototype for the Greek Hermes and Roman Mercury.

The ancient Mesopotamians believed that the planets were gods of their pantheon; or at least the omens of their gods. Which is why the Old Testament is critical of star-gazers, because it would have been a violation of the first commandment. (You shall have no other gods before Me.)

Bunraku, I just learned that the ancient Greeks called the study of the heavens "Uranology," after the god who personified the starry heavens: Uranus (Ouranos in Greek.) There was no planet named for the god Uranus in ancient times: rather he ruled or personified the entire sky.

The terms astronomy and astrology apparently came later.

We see in the ancient god's name Uranus, the earlier Babylonian creator god's name Anu. He was also deemed to personify the entire sky. It is well known that Greco-Roman cultures borrowed heavily from Mesopotamia. They simply added a prefix meaning "primeval" (ur) and suffix (us- a masculine ending) to their cognate god's name

waybread said:

Bunraku, I just learned that the ancient Greeks called the study of the heavens "Uranology," after the god who personified the starry heavens: Uranus (Ouranos in Greek.) There was no planet named for the god Uranus in ancient times: rather he ruled or personified the entire sky.

The terms astronomy and astrology apparently came later.

Click to expand...

They came in when Urania was goddess of the Heavens, and Muse of Astrology and astronomy, which were intertwined. She's depicted as holding an astrolabe and a pointer.
anaa
Personally, I conflate Ouranos with Ourania (his granddaughter by Mnemosyne, goddess of Memory, and Zeus, king of the gods). In Latin, Ouranos became known as Caelus, but Ourania is closer to the Greek name in Latin, Urania.

The "Uran" prefix, meaning "the Heavens" is what really matters.

waybread said:

Don't get so huffy, JA.
Quite simply, sect and essential dignities and debilities
have zero to do with why Mercury
is the traditional planetary ruler of astrology.
All of the traditional planets have these in one form or another.
The question is why Mercury instead of some other planet.

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calm down WB
the OP states clearly
that
Ancient Texts Support MERCURY
As The TRADITIONAL RULER OF ASTROLOGY
and
obviously
because
MERCURY is the TRADITIONAL ruler of astrology
Whether the chart is a Day Chart or a Night Chart
is foundational for traditional astrological delineation of MERCURY
and furthermore
MERCURY requires a complicated analysis
in order to determine
whether, for each individual natal chart
Mercury is a Day planet
or a Night planet
SECT is foundational



.

waybread said:

Bunraku, I just learned that the ancient Greeks
called the study of the heavens "..Uranology,"
after the god who personified the starry heavens:
U***** (O***** in Greek.)
There was no planet named for the god U**** in ancient times:
rather he ruled or personified the entire sky.
The terms astronomy and astrology apparently came later.
We see in the ancient god's name U****
the earlier Babylonian creator god's name Anu.
He was also deemed to personify the entire sky.
It is well known that Greco-Roman cultures borrowed heavily
from Mesopotamia.
They simply added a prefix meaning "primeval" (ur)
and suffix (us- a masculine ending)
to their cognate god's name

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Off-topic - thread title refers to the visible planet MERCURY

.

david starling said:

They came in when U**** was goddess of the Heavens, and
Muse of Astrology and astronomy, which were intertwined.
She's depicted as holding an astrolabe and a pointer.
anaa
Personally, I conflate O***** with O*****
(his granddaughter by Mnemosyne, goddess of Memory
and Zeus, king of the gods).
In Latin, O****** became known as Caelus,
but O**** is closer to the Greek name in Latin, U****.
The "U****" prefix, meaning "the Heavens" is what really matters.

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completely off topic
keep in mind that
you are free to commence your own thread
to better indicate whatever it was you actually had in mind
discussing *******

What really matters is

the thread title OP
clearly involves the VISIBLE PLANET MERCURY


.

david starling said:

They came in when Urania was goddess of the Heavens, and Muse of Astrology and astronomy, which were intertwined. She's depicted as holding an astrolabe and a pointer.
anaa
Personally, I conflate Ouranos with Ourania (his granddaughter by Mnemosyne, goddess of Memory, and Zeus, king of the gods). In Latin, Ouranos became known as Caelus, but Ourania is closer to the Greek name in Latin, Urania.

The "Uran" prefix, meaning "the Heavens" is what really matters.

Click to expand...

David, Urania was one of the nine muses, who ruled astronomy/astrology. Her companion muses ruled things like poetry, history, music, dance. The muses in Antiquity had mostly to do with inspiration.

Since there wasn't a planet affixed to Urania in ancient times, she didn't rule astrology in a way that could be used in horoscope interpretation. That would be Mercury. But she might inspire the astrologer preparing for a chart interpretation.

JA, you're missing the point.

The only ancient text you cited in support of your proposition is Ptolemy, whom you didn't even like a few years ago. You somehow saw him as in competition with his contemporary Vettius Valens.

I've been doing the heavy lifting for you, in noting texts that support Mercury as ruling astrology or astrologers. I can look up a few more in my book collection, if anyone is in doubt about this.

Or you could.

I'll leave it at that.

waybread said:

Bunraku, I just learned that the ancient Greeks called the study of the heavens "Uranology," after the god who personified the starry heavens: Uranus (Ouranos in Greek.) There was no planet named for the god Uranus in ancient times: rather he ruled or personified the entire sky.

The terms astronomy and astrology apparently came later.

We see in the ancient god's name Uranus, the earlier Babylonian creator god's name Anu. He was also deemed to personify the entire sky. It is well known that Greco-Roman cultures borrowed heavily from Mesopotamia. They simply added a prefix meaning "primeval" (ur) and suffix (us- a masculine ending) to their cognate god's name

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Omg I love this!! I did not know this.

Do you feel like the way the planet is described as a personality correlates/fits with the ancient characterization of the god?

Bunraku, mythological Mercury was the one god who could travel between the heavens and the gods of Mount Olympus, the earth's surface, and the underworld. He was a messenger, who with winged sandals could quickly traverse the distances.

I think he was understood as a metaphor for the human mind: how our minds can travel through these different realms.

Mercury, notably in his Greek form Hermes, was also seen as a conductor of the souls of the dead. His afterlife connotation tied him into the ancient Egyptian god Thoth, shown as an ibis. Thoth was originally an Egyptian moon god, but because he also ruled scribes, he became assimilated to Mercury.

A lot of Hellenistic (Greek-inspired) astrology developed in Alexandria, Egypt. Some of the astrologers there were more into magic and metaphysics, and there was a kind of astrology attributed to Hermes that was a lot more esoteric than simply reading charts for people.

Today we usually interpret Mercury in a more practical way, notably in traditional western astrology. For example, people with Mercury domiciled in Gemini or Virgo are probably plenty bright, unless they got dropped on the head as little kids.

However, even traditional western astrology has its mystical branches, notably through the kabbalah, which flourished during the Middle Ages.

waybread said:

David, Urania was one of the nine muses, who ruled astronomy/astrology. Her companion muses ruled things like poetry, history, music, dance. The muses in Antiquity had mostly to do with inspiration.

Since there wasn't a planet affixed to Urania in ancient times, she didn't rule astrology in a way that could be used in horoscope interpretation.

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Not in Traditionalist astrology.

David, so how would you use mythological Urania in traditional western astrology?

Note that it is absolutely forbidden to discuss asteroid Urania on the traditional astrology board. We don't want to upset JA.

Shhhh...

waybread said:

Bunraku, I just learned that the ancient Greeks called the study of the heavens "Uranology," after the god who personified the starry heavens: Uranus (Ouranos in Greek.) There was no planet named for the god Uranus in ancient times: rather he ruled or personified the entire sky.

The terms astronomy and astrology apparently came later.

We see in the ancient god's name Uranus, the earlier Babylonian creator god's name Anu. He was also deemed to personify the entire sky. It is well known that Greco-Roman cultures borrowed heavily from Mesopotamia. They simply added a prefix meaning "primeval" (ur) and suffix (us- a masculine ending) to their cognate god's name

Click to expand...

Actually "Uranus" was never a Greek OR a Latin name for the god personifing the Heavens. The Greek name had an "os" (Ouranos), at the end, and the Roman name for that god was "Caelus", not "Uranus", which is a modern invention. It was an attempt to make a Greek name sound Roman, so it would fit in with the Latin names of the other astrological planets. The Greek name for the goddess of the Heavens "Ourania" was known in Latin as "Urania".

Urania wasn't about just inspiration. She was about the measuring of the Heavens for both astrology and astronomy.

waybread said:

David, so how would you use mythological Urania in traditional western astrology?

Note that it is absolutely forbidden to discuss asteroid Urania on the traditional astrology board. We don't want to upset JA.

Shhhh...

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I, personally, don't use the asteroid they named "Urania" in any context.

In this forum, I would go with the planet "Mercury" as the "ruler of astrology".

david starling said:

I, personally, don't use the asteroid they named "Urania" in any context.

In this forum, I would go with the planet "Mercury" as the "ruler of astrology".

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I needed this laugh.

Yes Mercury is the traditional ruler of astrology. I mean, messenger of the Gods? Thanks waybread and Odds for doing the heavy lifting.

W, agreed that sect has nothing to do with the OP. Saving for a different day a whole other conversation about it.

Just wanted to thank ALL of you for this gem of a thread. I needed it today.

xo
t

P.S. As a traditional astrologer/moderator, simply mentioning outer planets isn't prohibited on this board. Contrary to what <some> may believe.

Having conversation about the Greco-Roman origins of the Gods/Planet names/constellations is useful. As is conversation about which came first, the astrology, or the mythology? There are those who believe that the myths actually were allegories for astrology.

tsmall said:

P.S. As a traditional astrologer/moderator, simply mentioning outer planets isn't prohibited on this board. Contrary to what <some> may believe.

Having conversation about the Greco-Roman origins of the Gods/Planet names/constellations is useful. As is conversation about which came first, the astrology, or the mythology? There are those who believe that the myths actually were allegories for astrology.

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I am amongst those. for astrology, and the ages.

waybread said:

Bunraku, mythological Mercury was the one god who could travel between the heavens and the gods of Mount Olympus, the earth's surface, and the underworld. He was a messenger, who with winged sandals could quickly traverse the distances.

I think he was understood as a metaphor for the human mind: how our minds can travel through these different realms.

Mercury, notably in his Greek form Hermes, was also seen as a conductor of the souls of the dead. His afterlife connotation tied him into the ancient Egyptian god Thoth, shown as an ibis. Thoth was originally an Egyptian moon god, but because he also ruled scribes, he became assimilated to Mercury.

A lot of Hellenistic (Greek-inspired) astrology developed in Alexandria, Egypt. Some of the astrologers there were more into magic and metaphysics, and there was a kind of astrology attributed to Hermes that was a lot more esoteric than simply reading charts for people.

Today we usually interpret Mercury in a more practical way, notably in traditional western astrology. For example, people with Mercury domiciled in Gemini or Virgo are probably plenty bright, unless they got dropped on the head as little kids.

However, even traditional western astrology has its mystical branches, notably through the kabbalah, which flourished during the Middle Ages.

Click to expand...

Also the messenger between the Sun and Venus.

Great thread JA! Thanks!