Two kinds of astrology

Phil

Phil

Well-known member
Interesting thread. I have a science background, but nevertheless got interested in astrology, though as others have stated, never discussed it with coworkers, since newspaper astrology has made it look ridiculous.

Just a few questions:

Examples have been given of an event in the past ultimately causing a major event to have occured in the future and attaching importance to the trigger, in the sense of the butterfly effect. But can't this line of thinking regress infinitely backwards? Greybeard mentioned the changing of the tire as being the start of a chain reaction leading to his marrying his wife. But did the chain start there? How about the decision to visit the desert in Sonora? To get on the bus? Can't you just quasi-infinitely trace events backwards leading to event in question? Going back further don't you also have to consider your parent's lifes? Ad infinitum. Does this type of thinking get us anywhere? Or am I missing something? How can you determine the initial condition in the chaotic system anyhow?

I can understand it perhaps applying to the initial condition of a weather system, but to a human life? It seems to me that the selection of the "trigger" is arbitrary, one can infinitely regress...

The universe is infinitely complex and we are a part of it. Astrology (to me) seems like an attempt at a simplistic sketch of the most salient points of our tiny part in the universe (this reasoning applies to science too...).

Start bringing chaos theory into the fray, and a Pandora's box of complexity opens up. I just find that a mixture of the reductionist approach and a holistic view of the entire horoscope for patterns is a valid approach. Granted, this is just my opinion.
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
Quite correct Phil.

It all goes back to at least the Big Bang and is a continuum, an unbroken chain.

But... We can choose links in the chain as arbitrary starting points as we attempt to see the microscopic. For example, the moment of your own first breath describes you as an individual distinct from Newton's apple or the birth of your maternal grandmother.

I chose "changing a tire" because it was the event that triggered the rather complex chain of events that led to my marriage, the event that I noticed in retrospect. Obviously, the first link in that chain was my own birth....which wasn't the first link, of course. Mama and daddy had to meet, my more distant ancestors had to get on a boat.........

But "changing a tire" gives us focus on a point in time, suitable to our limited human perspective and useful in a practical way.

I didn't start the thread, didn't introduce chaos theory to astrology. But I had read Gleick some time ago, have him sitting at hand where I sometimes revisit in an attempt to understand, have watched a couple of university lectures on the subject. The implications of chaos theory for astrologers are interesting and useful in forming our understandings and perspectives.

I am not a scientist, but for all of my 72 years I have had a strong interest in the sciences generally. Through high school and early college years science was my focus. But science is cold, objective, impersonal. Astrology is warm, subjective and personal. If your view of life is that of a hide-bound scientist (life is an equation, mechanical, expressable in numbers) then I suppose we must regress to the Big Bang through all the "chance encounters" that made Earth the only planet anywhere known to hold life.

My whole point was that our lives are shaped by unnoticed conditions and events. Astrology deals with "beginnings". And like our own first breath, there are other beginnings in our lives and the astrologer must, often arbitrarily, select those beginnings for practical purposes.

Getting married, or winning the lottery, or breaking my back...these may be parts of a simplistic sketch of the most salient points of our tiny part of the universe, but to an individual human being they are important.

The butterfly in Brazil affecting the weather system is as much subject to infinite regression as anything else.

I like your thoughtful commentary.
 
Phil

Phil

Well-known member
Thanks greybeard. I too can go back to what I think of as the trigger to a chain of events that led to meeting my wife, and if any link in the chain had broken, would never have met her. Yet the trigger is arbitary. Another person might select another one...

To the OP: how does chaos theory apply in practical terms to the interpretation of an astrological chart? Astrology seems to me already complex enough as it is, with the phletoria of planets, asteroids, harmonics, minor aspects, etc. I prefer a simplified approach, as I mentioned: first letting the chart "speak" to you, getting a general impression, then tackling the components to a certain degree of depth (again here you have to have a cutoff point...), consulting Hand, Pottinger, Arroyo et al where needed...

P.S. Note also that on the microscopic level, cause and effect does not exist. It is all about probabilities and the Schrödinger equation collapsing upon observation. I'd rather keep away from all of this complexity in astrology, and follow the KISS principle... This instead of blindly following Pottinger or attempting to apply chaos theory. I find astrology should be intuitive an art, neither cookbook like, nor scientific-like.
 
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Z

Zarathu

Account Closed
Phil said:
To the OP: how does chaos theory apply in practical terms to the interpretation of an astrological chart? Astrology seems to me already complex enough as it is, with the phletoria of planets, asteroids, harmonics, minor aspects, etc. I prefer a simplified approach, as I mentioned: first letting the chart "speak" to you, getting a general impression, then tackling the components to a certain degree of depth (again here you have to have a cutoff point...), consulting Hand, Pottinger, Arroyo et al where needed...
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Yes..... that's one way. Generally its called the reductionist approach. Noel Tyl would be proud of you since he's only interested in the big bells, the meat and potatoes, as it were.
 
Phil

Phil

Well-known member
Zarathu said:
Yes..... that's one way. Generally its called the reductionist approach. Noel Tyl would be proud of you since he's only interested in the big bells, the meat and potatoes, as it were.
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Yes, but I am not asking what my approach is, I am asking what the chaos theory approach consists of specifically...
 
tr1nity

tr1nity

Well-known member
In my opinion, the chaos theory consists specifically of certain repeating patterns or tendencies in the horoscope and re-defining these as 'strange attractors' so in astrological language an individual with a 'Moon Pluto' pattern will draw in the nature of this planetary pair and oscillates between this and other 'strange attractors' in a state known as 'entropic chaos'
Chaos theory recognises that what we would term serendipitous events, or perhaps synchronicity or even just a coincidence can be identified as new potentials thus a point of 'bifurcation'.
So using 'chaotic' terms a 'bifurcation' can be seen by a chaotic astrologer where an individual may want to 'jump' though is unsure. Two reasons for this- current residence in 'entropic chaos' and 'homeostasis' resistance to change.
The theory is that we encounter other 'strange attractors' as we move through life and upon reaching a 'bifurcation' point the opportunity to 'change peak' thus stepping into the edge of chaos where the potential to create 'new patterns' in a non-linear world exists and so activating their free will with the new choices seen by the predictive astrologer and from there making new patterns and once again finding homeostasis.
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
I just want everyone to know that I'm an astrologer of the bifurcated entropic homeostatic chaos school. If you're looking for a strange attractor, I'm your guy. But please don't confuse me with a quark.
 
Phil

Phil

Well-known member
OK, I saw the video, but still don't get it. Lots of generalities I found, but nothing concrete. The thread was started stating Pottinger et al. What is being discussed here actually? Birthchart analysis? Transits/Progressions? Both? I assume mostly predictive aspects, correct me if I am wrong.
Where is the methodology proposed for a chaos theory approach?
 
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Flapjacks

Flapjacks

Well-known member
tr1nity said:
In my opinion, the chaos theory consists specifically of certain repeating patterns or tendencies in the horoscope and re-defining these as 'strange attractors' so in astrological language an individual with a 'Moon Pluto' pattern will draw in the nature of this planetary pair and oscillates between this and other 'strange attractors' in a state known as 'entropic chaos'
Chaos theory recognises that what we would term serendipitous events, or perhaps synchronicity or even just a coincidence can be identified as new potentials thus a point of 'bifurcation'.
So using 'chaotic' terms a 'bifurcation' can be seen by a chaotic astrologer where an individual may want to 'jump' though is unsure. Two reasons for this- current residence in 'entropic chaos' and 'homeostasis' resistance to change.
The theory is that we encounter other 'strange attractors' as we move through life and upon reaching a 'bifurcation' point the opportunity to 'change peak' thus stepping into the edge of chaos where the potential to create 'new patterns' in a non-linear world exists and so activating their free will with the new choices seen by the predictive astrologer and from there making new patterns and once again finding homeostasis.
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Well put. Now I'm interested. Thank you!
 
CiD

CiD

Member
Zarathu said:
There are two kinds of astrology.

But, to get beyond this first stage, takes one into a kind of astrology where one must simply have to see the chart. And it takes us into a realm of complexity that most people are not willing to go toward since it violates their own models of how the world works and makes things very confusing.]

Very wise words sir. I have grown ever so much more intelligent in my personal understanding of why I am here, and for the simplicity of the applying it in every day life. The difference that these "occult" or "spiritual" aspects have are that they actually affect our physical lives, both mentally and emotionally.
l couldn't agree more! And for the ears of those who reside content and comfortable applying that first stage Astrology in your life, take the time and Read about the more knowledgeable types of this Wonderful Gift.

Myself I Have found interest in the books of wisdom and acceptance, from one of the most intelligent men I do believe ever walked on this Earth.

Aleister Crowley understood many upon many great things; to which when practiced or displayed in open public, the interest of the masses take place and each of the bystanders become petrified, and hysteric, casting the GENEOUS out as a SORCERER. When in actuality he has only gained the wisdom that he found hiding within himself.

When the Student masters the laws of thy sevenfold kingdom, he shall yell out and Say Father oh heavenly Father I Call upon the and the Father shouts out and I Give unto you all of the powers of the 8, within the stars and planets in the 8, the knowledge of the master. That after following the 8 is the 9 and the acceptance to apply it here on earth as in the Divine.
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Z

Zarathu

Account Closed
This thread is about chaos theory.

Its not about black magic and Crowley. it has nothing to do with that. Please read up on Chaos theory and non-linear dynamic systems.
 
Z

Zarathu

Account Closed
CiD said:
Ok plz pardon me sir, was not meaning to upset you
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No upset taken.... But this thread is bout the use of chaos theory as a part of astrology and vice versa. As the OP, I would prefer that it not get sidetracked with discussions that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

There are plenty of places on this forum to talk about Crowley and black magic; this is just not one of them.
 
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