Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Traditional astrology will definitely not appeal to many
modernist astrology uses traditional techniques :smile:

and is completely dependent on
the strong foundation of traditional astrology
i.e.
remove strong foundation of traditional astrology from modernist astrology
and
the entire edifice of modernist astrology collapses
in contrast

Traditional astrology is completely independent of modernist astrology
and the accessibility is
also not easy, very expensive books
and online programmes.
on the contrary
the entire contents of an ancient astrological manuscript
written two thousands years ago by Vettius Valens
has been translated from the original Ancient Greek

by Professor Mark Riley of CSU
and has been generously uploaded by Professor Mark Riley

and is available FREE, GRATIS and FOR NOTHING in pdf form
at https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf


Vettius Valens' Anthologiae
is the longest extant astrological work from antiquity.
It is unique in several respects:
the author was a practicing astrologer :smile:
the work includes more than 100 authentic horoscopes of Valens' clients
or associates, including his own
which is used as an example many times throughout the work
which also includes tables and the description of algorithms
used by ancient astrologers and mathematicians
Professor Mark T Riley CSU
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
A lot is said about mastery and transcendence of chart energies, especially in modern astrology where the "right" use of free-will is seen as a remedy to the problems brought on by astrological influences. Through the continued consciousness that is exercised one would eventually get to a point where they are no longer beholden to planetary energy, and this would supposedly result in a free man unchained from the wheel of samsara.


If you bombard someone with messages like you create your own experience you attract things into your life, all the bad things you yourself caused, at some point that person may believe but when nothing good comes either s/he may feel cheated or look up to other new age believers for support and validation.

I have read some new age books on channeling and life. Most miss the point that you may create your experience and your reality but only in the confines of life theme you want to experience. If your life theme is to stay poor as an experience then no matter what you do how much you change your beliefs you can't be rich. But the funny part is no one knows what life theme they are playing out, only at the end of life they can look back and make out if they are wise enough.

I'm a huge fan of Joseph Campbell and have seen the six episode series of The Power of Myth several times. In the last episode he answers when asked about the purpose of life and quotes Schopenhauer. He says Schopenhauer wrote late in his life that when you look back at life everything seems to have an order and a purpose like a story. My interpretation - you will meet people you are supposed to and experiences you are supposed to have, even though aimless Will is at work. This is the closest metaphysical thing that ever came from one of the greatest pessimists which matches with the new age philsophies.

What I'm wondering is, if a person were to hypothetically reach this state of consciousness, would they really need to slough off the vehicle (natal matrix) that allowed them to acquire this exalted state in the first place? I'm reminded of the Zen proverb, "Before enlightenment, chopping wood and carrying water. After enlightenment, chopping wood and carrying water."


The chart doesn't allow anything to happen it only shows how fate unfolds, if you are old school you will appease gods and work with their planetary angels. If you believe in new age modern astrology well you don't need a chart because you can be anything you want :happy:
 
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lostinstars

Well-known member
on the contrary
the entire contents of an ancient astrological manuscript
written two thousands years ago by Vettius Valens
has been translated from the original Ancient Greek

by Professor Mark Riley of CSU
and has been generously uploaded by Professor Mark Riley

and is available FREE, GRATIS and FOR NOTHING in pdf form
at https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf


Vettius Valens' Anthologiae
is the longest extant astrological work from antiquity.
It is unique in several respects:
the author was a practicing astrologer :smile:
the work includes more than 100 authentic horoscopes of Valens' clients
or associates, including his own
which is used as an example many times throughout the work
which also includes tables and the description of algorithms
used by ancient astrologers and mathematicians
Professor Mark T Riley CSU


By accessibilty I meant it is not easy to understand reading old texts, I wasted several months figuring out how to start where to start unable to see some structured way of presenting the knowledge, only reading articles, websites till I stumbled on this forum and ordered the books suggested. Once one gets little understanding of the basics then reading Valens' script would help indeed.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Of course traditional astrology also is psychological
in terms of addressing the spiritual needs of the soul

but that part is very little as I understand
on the contrary
traditional astrology addresses this matter using multiple methodologies
for example

not only by delineating Ascendant/First House
i.e.
Main Rulerships of First House = Life, vitality and health.
Stature, colour, complexion, form and shape of body.

Older sources note First House influence upon the intellect
the way the mind works, and speech. :smile:

First house represents the focal point for the personality
and manner of expression.

As well as describing the physical appearance
the condition of this house and that of its planetary ruler
indicates the level of personal vitality and strength.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h1.html

so not only using Ascendant ruler et al

but also by using various Lots aka Arabic Parts
link to a FREE pdf THE FIVE HIDDEN PILLAR OF FATE
https://www.scribd.com/doc/6956746/Five-Pillars-of-Fate-Fortune-and-Destiny-in-Astrology
©2007 Antoine Garth, All Rights Reserved
Antoine Garth, astrologer presents:
The study of fortune and destiny in the chart has been recovered

from the works of Vettius Valens.
In this study we consult the second century astrologer
to return to an astrology not known since his time.
This will force three major traumas upon us as astrologers:
Hard Hit #1
First, we are working within a deterministic system
wherein we are seeking to be privy to
the inscrutable workings of Fate.
At first blush we modern thinkers
may protest such a domination
of symbol over lifestyle, and may wish to reject this idea
as insufficiently allowing us to properly assign "Free Will" to our ego nature.
Ironically, this system is useful for also pointing out
how the Ego can prevent a morefortunate fate from occurring.
In other words
the system of these five additional, calculated "lots"
creates an astrological universe of its own.
It reveals a hidden aspect of the chart, our own role in it
and what indicators we must follow
in order to fulfill our destiny.

but if you constantly analyse things and do not act, basically
you are wasting your life achieving nothing.
good point, well made! :smile:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Thanks JUIPTERASC for the recommendation and correction.

I still have so many books to read and less time and money :)
Money is not required if you use the free links I provided :smile:
however much time IS required
to read, study AND vigilently practice


FREE pdf
THE FIVE HIDDEN PILLARS OF FATE :smile:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/6956746/Five-Pillars-of-Fate-Fortune-and-Destiny-in-Astrology
©2007 Antoine Garth, All Rights Reserved
Antoine Garth, astrologer

also


entire contents of ancient astrological manuscript
written two thousands years ago by Vettius Valens
translated from the original Ancient Greek
by Professor Mark Riley of CSU
has been generously uploaded by Professor Mark Riley
and is available FREE, GRATIS and FOR NOTHING in pdf form
at https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
Money is not required if you use the free links I provided :smile:
however much time IS required
to read, study AND vigilently practice


Thanks and yes more time than money. I'm interested in occult and magick so already spent quite a lot of money already procuring books from abroad. So budgeting myself every now and then :smile:. My aim is to practise magic as done during renaissance from there move onto other types of magic, so I need to have strong foundation. :biggrin:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

ardentika

Well-known member
Awareness can be freewill but depends on the quality and intensity of awareness. You can't be totally aware of your surroundings with no thoughts in your mind and do something awful like a murder because killing someone requires absence of your awareness or poorest quality of awareness to be precise and being overtaken by animalistic instincts.

Being aware of yourself is enough.

This is what new age spiritual gurus have been doing for decades now brainwashing people and destroying their ability to question things discounting their experience. You can't create fate then it would not be called fate. Fate by definition is outside one's control.
Really don't see how thats brainwashing to not question things. It's actually making you QUESTIONG everything you know, including the meaning of fate, which you aren't really questioning, so I'm confused.





Astrology is set in stone for few things depending on the placements and dignities of planets. You cannot escape certain things no matter what you do. And everyone would not have the same life as everyone's chart is different. The development of astrology, magic, alchemy etc., is only to counter the fate to the extent humans can so that they can live satisfactory life.


Nothing is set in stone. It's silly to believe that. Nothing in life is. Maybe an fosil is set in stone lol.


Haven't you come across people who get things so easily and look like they don't even sweat for biggest things in life? Often these people are dumber than average, you honestly think they are capable of getting things so easily?

I have, and I have studied them carefully. Usually the things those people get would not satisfy me, so I can't be bothered, I don't envy them much. And mostly they get things easier cos they have no resistance, they don't feel "unworthy" to have things, so they are just allowing and accepting to whatever comes their way. Ignorance is bliss.



Of course I believe in myself that is why when I'm doing enough and still I don't get results even after very long, I'm smart enough to know that it is not my fault. I have done my job. You can't perpetually fool yourself, eventually if you are sane and practical you will wake up to the reality.

I don't know which reality you are talking about, but I'm definitely happy with mine. It brings me great results, I'm happy. You might wanna wake up to a different reality because you seem rather negative.


No body is concerned about future if everything goes well and falls in place. If you are constantly getting short end of the stick, you will want to know where the hell things went wrong?
What went wrong does not lie in the future but the past, so again I'm confused.

New age beliefs, spirituality, backed up quantum mechanics are good for intellectual amusement and to feel good about yourself. At the end if you don't have the results, some people will question the methods giving importance to their experience while some discount their experience and say no universe will give me I just have to wait and I will. To them I say, good for you.
I get where you are coming from, I used to think the same way. It's all about the results. And I often discarded everything, calling it BS, new age ****, like you. But in the end I came to the realization that I am exactly where I'm supposed to be, and better be happy about it that constantly negative. Cos being negative never brought me anything than stress and obstacles, more than I had. The moment I stopped focusing on the end result and on the now, and adopted a more positive look on life, opportunities started coming my way and my life blossomed faster than I imagined. So, what can I say, it works for me. When it doesn't work for you, find something that does. But you can't tell me I'm fooling myself. Don't try to bring me to your level to validate your beliefs.
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
I get where you are coming from, I used to think the same way. It's all about the results. And I often discarded everything, calling it BS, new age ****, like you. But in the end I came to the realization that I am exactly where I'm supposed to be, and better be happy about it that constantly negative. Cos being negative never brought me anything than stress and obstacles, more than I had. The moment I stopped focusing on the end result and on the now, and adopted a more positive look on life, opportunities started coming my way and my life blossomed faster than I imagined. So, what can I say, it works for me. When it doesn't work for you, find something that does. But you can't tell me I'm fooling myself. Don't try to bring me to your level to validate your beliefs.


If a traditional astrologer reads your chart and can pin point or draw parallels to your high points or good events in your life, would you still say it is your own doing because of your free will and no influence from planets?

If your answer is 'yes' my follow up question would be then why do you even bother about knowing anything about astrology? Just with your free will you can create your own fate regardless of what kind of people you come across in your life. You surely don't need to know what planetary combinations your spouse has to exercise your free will in your relationship. Also, I find the aspect of integrating knowledge of planets or planets seen as archetypes into one's life rather silly though I'm a big fan of Jung solely on the reason that you don't need to invoke Mars to exercise your free will as you said awareness is all you need.

If 'no' and you think planets have some role, it goes to my very first post on how much role fate and free will have in one's life according to modern astrology? I don't want to go back to where I started.
 

ardentika

Well-known member
If a traditional astrologer reads your chart and can pin point or draw parallels to your high points or good events in your life, would you still say it is your own doing because of your free will and no influence from planets?

If your answer is 'yes' my follow up question would be then why do you even bother about knowing anything about astrology? Just with your free will you can create your own fate regardless of what kind of people you come across in your life. You surely don't need to know what planetary combinations your spouse has to exercise your free will in your relationship. Also, I find the aspect of integrating knowledge of planets or planets seen as archetypes into one's life rather silly though I'm a big fan of Jung solely on the reason that you don't need to invoke Mars to exercise your free will as you said awareness is all you need.

If 'no' and you think planets have some role, it goes to my very first post on how much role fate and free will have in one's life according to modern astrology? I don't want to go back to where I started.

I'm open to someone pinpointing events in my life, but that never happened. Also I started to learn astrology cos I feared the future. I feared it even more after I learned astrology. Astrology became a tool for me to understand myself better.

Again, I've had so many transits that brought me NOTHING, that I'm really skeptical. I don't know how many percent the free will there is lol. There are events that are timed, true. I'm not denying that. But I believe I chose this prior to birth, because I honestly wouldn't change anything of my path so far, and I'd do it again the same way. Well I wouldn't react the same way, but I wouldn't remove events of my life. I believe it all happened for a reason.

SO I guess it's a fair mixture of both. The yin and yang.
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
Thanks and yes more time than money. I'm interested in occult and magick so already spent quite a lot of money already procuring books from abroad. So budgeting myself every now and then :smile:. My aim is to practise magic as done during renaissance from there move onto other types of magic, so I need to have strong foundation. :biggrin:

I have a load of occult texts and astrological resources I can pass on to you, since I can see the earnest intensity in your desire for this type of knowledge. If you are interested let me know.
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
Again, I've had so many transits that brought me NOTHING, that I'm really skeptical. I don't know how many percent the free will there is lol. There are events that are timed, true. I'm not denying that. But I believe I chose this prior to birth, because I honestly wouldn't change anything of my path so far, and I'd do it again the same way. Well I wouldn't react the same way, but I wouldn't remove events of my life. I believe it all happened for a reason.

SO I guess it's a fair mixture of both. The yin and yang.


Of course it is a mix of both in both the systems, fate is only for key events in one's life to keep the course in the right path for whatever reason we humans do not know. No one sane enough will ever say fate is forcing me to eat bad food and put on weight unless some serious illness is written in the charts.

On a side note there are some Indian yogis who are trained only to get flashes of intuition on events which will happen in the future, they apparently can even predict the events in the lives of enlightened humans or people who supposedly have conquered death. I have heard about them in a video of an Indian elightened master narrating his experience with them and I could relate to it as a colleague of mine shared his private experience with someone similar. They can't predict everything about your future but only certain things which pop up in their minds and they can even read your thoughts only if and when needed. They are at the mercy of their own yogic powers, that is the fate in action. :ninja:

Seems like only some people come across these yogis that could be written in their fate as such experiences may create a long lasting impact and provoke them to question their understanding of universe and life.
 
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jac

Well-known member
I wouldn't say. Planets appeared to US after we started observing them. Yes, they have been there before us, but we can't say if they had any effect on life on Earth.


Of course you can. Your thoughts exist in the 4D, whatvever you think, you attract to your physical reality. Whatever you think you ARE, you become in your physical reality. It's not just for astral projection. I don't even believe astral projection is to the 4D. But thats irrelevant to the topic.


I don't see how thats relevant to what I said and the point I was trying to make.


Astrology is not discovered, it's invented. The difference is HUGE. Discovery means something was already there, and you just found it. We discovered pyramids, we didn't invent them. We discovered continents, didn't invent them. Astrology is not astronomy. We discovered planets and acknowledged their existance, and used that to invent astrology. Astrology is a man made tool. People can believe whatever they want, that it was handed by Gods or whatever, but it was still filtered by a man's limited consciousness. Hence, it's a subject of change and observation. Physics department knows pretty much nothing about physics, because it's a constant process of discovering new things which often times say the old things they discovered aren't true or simply don't work.



If you have elevated Saturn , then you have octaves, different levels of consciousness, which again proves my point.


As everything else.


I HAVE had it another way. I felt doomed, I felt angry and mad, then I started accepting my "fate" and settling for less, and absorbing the victim consciousness, until I was having none of the BS astrology can serve at times. The doom and gloom mentality.


Oh we don't. We know as much as we can at the time being. But that changes constantly. Everything is in motion, the universe is expanding, WE are expanding. That's why we have outdated belief systems, hence outdated astrology.



That's okay, we are all allowed to share our perception. I do see immense evolution because I focus on it. Perhaps you are looking at the wrong places? I see this evolution being mental, emotional and spiritual more than physical. I don't think we need physical evolution right now, before we evolve the other aspects of ourselves. I don't think quality of life has degenerated terribly. If anything I think it has improved immensly. We no longer kill our neighbour for mundane reasons, we are able to solve conflict in a much more peaceful way. We don't die before 30 our of bad hygiene or lack of knowledge of the world around us.

You don't see evolution because you make the comparison of what YOU THINK we should look like as a race and what we are, rather than compare what we WERE and what we ARE NOW. And this is not how evolution works really. It's nice to have a vision of a better future, but don't use it to determinate the now. Acknowledge where we came from and how much we have accomplished, and understand we are all trying to move forward. It's just hard, because when you go UP , by up I mean judging goverments and people in power... it's hard. It's easy to judge someone from your home, but if you were put in that situation, I doubt you would do any better.

We can only imagine what "evolved" species looks like, but truth is, there is no end to evolution. So we can't know. It's best to work with what we have.


I agree deeply with everything @Frisiangal said. The only "fate" comes from the certain knowing that a certain planet will aspect some of your natal ones. But what will happen? NO ONE can tell you. They can try.
I've had so many transits that brought me virtually anything. I go back and I try hard to find a meaning and what happened, but nothing. How do you explain that?

You don't know me, my history, or my thought processes. You make a lot of assumptions, and my perception is that you believe what makes you comfortable. It's your life, do what you want, but don't expect me to buy into it. I come here for astrology, not fantasy, philosophy, psychology, or 'new age'. Structure and discipline work.
 

ardentika

Well-known member
Of course it is a mix of both in both the systems, fate is only for key events in one's life to keep the course in the right path for whatever reason we humans do not know. No one sane enough will ever say fate is forcing me to eat bad food and put on weight unless some serious illness is written in the charts.

On a side note there are some Indian yogis who are trained only to get flashes of intuition on events which will happen in the future, they apparently can even predict the events in the lives of enlightened humans or people who supposedly have conquered death. I have heard about them in a video of an Indian elightened master narrating his experience with them and I could relate to it as a colleague of mine shared his private experience with someone similar. They can't predict everything about your future but only certain things which pop up in their minds and they can even read your thoughts only if and when needed. They are at the mercy of their own yogic powers, that is the fate in action. :ninja:

Seems like only some people come across these yogis that could be written in their fate as such experiences may create a long lasting impact and provoke them to question their understanding of universe and life.
I have predicted the future too! Quite a few times. It actually gave me a better understanding. I was learning to read cards and people kept asking me about the future, I was quite scared ,esp the first few times after things happened the exact way cards showed me. I see the future sort of as the outcome of certain decision we made on a deeper level or work we put in.
Also, when it comes to meetings. "Fated" meetings. I went to a .. spiritual seminar I guess? The person who was showing the practice believes that in the non physical realm we are all at the same place. Imagine all humans in one room. So you see someone and you are like "Hey you! Let's meet down there!" Haha. That really resonated with me.

Einstein believed that all has happened already from the big bang to the destruction of our kind and earth, and our brains are just slowing it down to process it. Jung believes that astrology only shows our characters but not our fate, which o believe too.
 
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