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Dirius

Well-known member
It doesn't matter if it's a business or not. I am asking you whether you would be OK with it. I want to get a feel for your boundaries.

Thats their private life. I don't have a right to intrude in someone else's privacy. Frankly I don't care.

I don't mind, because I personally don't care what people do, as long as they are not harming/violating the rights of other people. If the place is on private grounds, no one can question or dictate who you choose to invite in.
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
[Deleted quote of racist comment. - Moderator]

You seem to think that just because you personally disapprove of certain things and sentiments, that means other people can't say them out loud or even think those thoughts. This is thought-policing, I hope you know.
Not just me, but at least half of this country!! Whilst the other half spends its energy justifying it. Dreadful.

It has nothing to do with skin colours. It has to do with the fact that white people naturally prefer those who look white. It is not their fault. I prefer white people too, they are so much better-looking.
You just said some posts back you speak just for yourself, so which one is it? Stick to speaking just for yourself because most educated people (thankfully) do not think like you do. Most treat human beings as human beings and not some black, white, brown, yellow puppets.

How am I "persecuting" black people?
Read your posts, look up the meaning of persecution, and do some introspection.
 
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aquarius7000

Well-known member
Thats their private life. I don't have a right to intrude in someone else's privacy. Frankly I don't care.

I don't mind, because I personally don't care what people do, as long as they are not harming/violating the rights of other people. If the place is on private grounds, no one can question or dictate who you choose to invite in.

So the part about "not harming/violating the right of other people" would also hold good in the case of non-white, correct?
 

Dirius

Well-known member
So the part about "not harming/violating the right of other people" would also hold good in the case of non-white, correct?

Of course. I believe all men are created equal. I don't care about ethnicity, and we are all entitled the same rights and respect.
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Its very beautiful place - but currently undergoing a giant economic depression, because, socialism.

There is a reason Buenos Aires is called the southern Paris. Lot of natural reserves and natural sights on southern Argentina too.
I am sure it is a beautiful place. Isn't every country that it its own way. Especially if one goes with an open mind.

So since you recommend it, I will add it to my list of countries to visit in the no-so-distant future (when covid gives us a break) right after Chile, Nepal and Ethiopia. :)
 
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aquarius7000

Well-known member
Of course. I believe all men are created equal. I don't care about ethnicity, and we are all entitled the same rights and respect.

At last, a complete post, not just a section of it, that I can agree with. Who would have thought... wonders never cease, do they? :) :)
 

Dirius

Well-known member
At last, a complete post, not just a section of it, that I can agree with. Who would have thought... wonders never cease, do they? :) :)

Why would I have a problem with people from other ethnicities?

We don't disagree on the issues or on the desired result.

We only disagree on the method on how to achieve such results. Thats all - and has been the same on every thread.

I think government's only purpose is to protect the rights of its citizens.

To me integration and acceptance have to occur naturally.

Enforcing integration only causes the problems you have now.

Government shouldn't force people to either segregate or integrate.

Human beings are born free, and should be treated as such. As long as we respect each other's right, we don't really need government interference. Goverment to me should only step in, when someone's rights are violated.
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Asians in the U.S. are pretty well accepted aren't they? Asians are pretty well accepted pretty much everywhere to be honest...[/B]
So why is that? They are not white either. They are different skin colour as well. They also speak English with an accent, as do many English speakers themselves. Some dress differently even (perhaps not so much the Japanese or Chinese, but Indians in their sarees, etc).

Everybody is smart in their own way and has something pleasant to add to society, if people would only be more open-minded and not denounce one right from the start based on stupid skin colour.

Or is it that, given the history of slavery in this country, people still associate that with a certain section of society. But then I ask myself, shouldn't that motivate people to be in fact even more tolerant and kind towards that section of society to make it up to them?

I mean, Germany, with its horribly dark past, tries to make amends through taking in many refugees. I mean of course one hand washes the other, and they too gain from cheap labour, you know for the menial jobs that most Germans consider well, menial. I know it, I lived there for quite a while :) But this is to just give an analogy.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
So why is that? They are not white either. They are different skin colour as well. They also speak English with an accent, as do many English speakers themselves. Some dress differently even (perhaps not so much the Japanese or Chinese, but Indians in their sarees, etc).

Everybody is smart in their own way and has something pleasant to add to society, if people would only be more open-minded and not denounce one right from the start based on stupid skin colour.

Or is it that, given the history of slavery in this country, people still associate that with a certain section of society. But then I ask myself, shouldn't that motivate people to be in fact even more tolerant and kind towards that section of society to make it up to them?

I mean, Germany, with its horribly dark past, tries to make amends through taking in many refugees. I mean of course one hand washes the other, and they too gain from cheap labour, you know for the menial jobs that most Germans consider well, menial. I know it, I lived there for quite a while :) But this is to just give an analogy.

The problem is that there have always been political interests to keep black people poor and as the "boogeyman" in american society.

When slavery ended the black community became a huge voting block which favoured the republican party and gave them a massive advantage over democrats. In fact, after the civil war, republicans held the presidency for the next 70 years. But this danger to the democrats occured both on the federal elections, and state elections. Most black people... lived in southern states.

For democrat politicians, this was bad. For southerners this was also bad, because regular black people were now direct competition for jobs, in the southern states which had a less developed economy.

This is why southern democrats passed the so called "jim crow" laws. The objective was to prevent blacks from properly gaining employment in the south, and thus discouraging black people from staying in southern states. Finally they also created the KKK, the armed wing of the democratic party, whose objective was to terrorize blacks and control their numbers through murder.

The plan of the democrats was to "expel" black people from the south, so they could keep their political privileges in their southern states.

The rest is history. Black people were pushed into poverty. They were prevented from having acces to education, and thus better employment. And as it happens with every poor tier in every society, criminal activity is more prevalent on such sectors.

Generation after generation, children grew up seeing blacks as inferior to whites. Because the black community was never allowed to progress. They were always seen as "poor". They were seen as dangerous. Combine that with propaganda from the democrats, along with rumors, myth, etc.

The rest is history.

This is my perception. I could be wrong. But its historically accurate.
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
...Black people were pushed into poverty. They were prevented from having acces to education, and thus better employment. And as it happens with every poor tier in every society, criminal activity is more prevalent on such sectors.

Generation after generation, children grew up seeing blacks as inferior to whites. Because the black community was never allowed to progress. They were always seen as "poor". They were seen as dangerous. Combine that with propaganda from the democrats, along with rumors, myth, etc.
...
Dirius, your above post came very close to the point I made in previous one as to why blacks might huddle together and why ghettos form. Think about it. When do you feel safe 'with your own kind' - whatever it is that might bind a certain section of society together.
However, on a more general note, could it be humanly possible that when a certain section of society is continually persecuted (I mean we are talking centuries here), even today, that they feel they are only accepted by people with the same skin colour, want to feel wanted and welcome, and need to mingle? Who does not need friends or want to feel welcome? And when you have faced dismissal and rejection from others based merely on your skin-colour and hair texture (I mean how absolutely bonkers is that!!!) would you remain just as 'adventurous' to keep trying, or would you be, you know, as a human being, just a bit hurt and broken? I mean look at how Wan is struggling to justify her condemnation of a section of society. And this struggle and whining has nothing to do with real life scenario, such as when nobody is going to not want to interview her for a job because one is not of a certain skin colour, etc.

I mean there are people that call 911 because they see two black guys waiting in Starbucks. This is the society we live in and we are discussing why it is wrong for somebody to come here on the forum and publicly say they find that certain section of society "ugly" and suggest they should emigrate? As if it were as normal as saying - I don't like cauliflower so throw it out of the fridge. :andy:

I am shocked that so many posts are reqd. by a no. of people to make some understand what is wrong with ostracizing and persecuting Americans in America!!! Honestly. I guess the education system needs more fixing than one would think.
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Media aside, here is an experience I recently had. Just two weekends ago, I drove through Newark in NJ to go pick something up at a Home Depot there. I drive through this area for about roughly 3 mins. or so, and all I see is really shabby looking, completely dilapidated houses one after another. A really run down section of housing area. Like in a row of say 10 houses, 8 were so run down. In front of some, some cheerful looking teenagers sat cackling and gossiping. Somewhat a group of men chatting with each other. But all black. I drove on and until I came fairly close to that Home Depot, I saw perhaps almost exclusively just that section of society - and how they lived. It was my first time in that Home Depot, and even though I have been to some other parts of Newark, but not that one, it was baffling that you saw no co-mingling there at all. It was very telling. It is like 'cast aside'. Isn't that sad? I mean if people had the choice, why would they not mingle? Nobody can deny that there is a certain hesitation and within some people's hearts there is fear of rejection and hurt due to rejection, whilst others bear some loathing, almost revulsion in their hearts. How can one human being be that way to another. I mean just based on skin colour and dreadlocks? Isn't that utterly dreadful? I would feel so horribly guilty if I ever behaved that way.

All the rest, like taking to criminality and forming of ghettos are nothing but results of such ostracism and exclusion of certain groups in many ways - and what for? Because people don't like the shape of their nose, or the skin tone or hair texture? Is that what we call a 'civilised' and 'educated' society? I mean most of us, if treated normally, equally and fairly right from the start, have the chance to get education without fear of ridicule, selection in jobs based solely on merit and not on skin colour and looks, etc., would prefer to earn our bread and butter that way, instead of through theft and whatnot. I would take to that too, if I had almost no other choice and had a family to feed, or whatever. Many are forced into criminality. Others take to it out of hate and revulsion towards a certain section of society. Then the former feels they need to retaliate, and soon the whole thing is out of hand.

Have you ever been to NYC and walked around the Penn Station area? Or the 8th ave? a big part of even the posh 5th ave, and many streets in Midtown Manhattan. You will see almost 98% of the people begging are blacks. Nobody can tell me they beg and that it is such a high percentage because it is in their genes or that they enjoy it. It is because of the reasons you pointed out in your previous post. It is because of decades and decades of being socially disadvantaged, oppressed and marginalised. No wonder some blacks think, very sadly though, if you are not a thug, you are not black - I read this on a link I think somebody (I think bb, but could be wrong about that) posted on another thread, but with a different intent.

Once somebody in my social circle told me how he was taught by his father, as part of preparing him for job interviews, to practise proper grammar... things like "you was sitting down" would straight away give away that one was black, and he gave me a few other examples - like a double negative in a sentence and certain pronunciation.

Whilst nobody should be forced to do anything, or gov's should not force integration on people, but the problem is that some only 'behave' when rules are forced on them. Else, if certain people had their way, they would hire only 'their kind' going just by looks. And this would be the case in any many other areas of society.

Have you seen the movie Hidden Figures?
 
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wan

Well-known member
Whilst nobody should be forced to do anything, or gov's should not force integration on people, but the problem is that some only 'behave' when rules are forced on them.

Ok, so you fancy yourself an authority on what constitutes "good behaviour" (all without consulting others) and not only that, you feel that you would be justified in forcing people to behave in the way you like.

Very interesting. Tell me more.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Aquarius7000, one thing I might note about run-down urban housing, is that normally the occupants do not own the building. It is owned by a landlord who doesn't fix up the place.

A historical note: After the Civil War, most African Americans remained in the South, working in agriculture under an arrangement known as share-cropping. This was pretty hard labor, much of it by hand, or farming with mules. When the US closed its gates to foreign immigration in the 1920s, and especially during the boom times post-WW2, a lot of Blacks moved to northern cities that offered manufacturing jobs. When cotton production in the South became mechanized and didn't need so much labor, there was a further push for them to head north for job opportunities.

Unfortunately by 1980, a lot of the northern factories had moved overseas, out to the edge of the city where undeveloped land was available, or to new locations promising tax incentives and non-union labor.

African Americans often got caught in the squeeze, lured north by jobs that evaporated, leaving them behind in urban centers with a shrinking tax base, as white Americans and businesses moved to the suburbs. A lot of the suburbs were either red-lined or had restrictive covenants prohibiting home owners to sell to Black people.

It is worth noting that something like 40% of African Americans today quality as middle class.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Ok, so you fancy yourself an authority on what constitutes "good behaviour" (all without consulting others) and not only that, you feel that you would be justified in forcing people to behave in the way you like.

Very interesting. Tell me more.

In principle, is it justifiable to enforce ANY rules of behavior on ANYONE?
If so, why some rules and not others?
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Dirius, your above post came very close to the point I made in previous one as to why blacks might huddle together and why ghettos form. Think about it. When do you feel safe 'with your own kind' - whatever it is that might bind a certain section of society together.

I didn't say this wasn't the case - I just said self segregation is not something you should look forward to, much less sanctioned and enforced by law. This would only bring you more division, and discrimination.

People should be free to live or get together with whomever they want. I'm just saying that creating "black only" zones (or for any ethnicity) is not something which will bring unity.

What you need is to get the government and policitians out of your life, and let the communities slowly heal. It may take time, but natural integration is the only way to a peaceful society.
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Media aside, here is an experience I recently had. Just two weekends ago, I drove through Newark in NJ to go pick something up at a Home Depot there. I drive through this area for about roughly 3 mins. or so, and all I see is really shabby looking, completely dilapidated houses one after another. A really run down section of housing area. Like in a row of say 10 houses, 8 were so run down. In front of some, some cheerful looking teenagers sat cackling and gossiping. Somewhat a group of men chatting with each other. But all black. I drove on and until I came fairly close to that Home Depot, I saw perhaps almost exclusively just that section of society - and how they lived. It was my first time in that Home Depot, and even though I have been to some other parts of Newark, but not that one, it was baffling that you saw no co-mingling there at all. It was very telling. It is like 'cast aside'. Isn't that sad? I mean if people had the choice, why would they mingle? Nobody can deny that there is a certain hesitation and within some people's hearts there is fear of and hurt due to rejection, whilst others bear some loathing, almost revulsion in their hurts. How can one human being be that way to another. I mean just based on skin colour and dreadlocks? Isn't that utterly dreadful? I would feel so horribly guilty if I ever behaved that way.

I agree. But the only way this can be succesful is if people mingle naturally. You really can't have a government program to make people like each other.
All the rest, like taking to criminality and forming of ghettos are nothing but results of such ostracism and exclusion of certain groups in many ways - and what for? Because people don't like the shape of their nose, or the skin tone or hair texture? Is that what we call a 'civilised' and 'educated' society? I mean most of us, if treated normally, equally and fairly right from the start, have the chance to get education without fear of ridicule, selection in jobs based solely on merit and not on skin colour and looks, etc., would prefer to earn our bread and butter that way, instead of through theft and whatnot. I would take to that too, if I had almost no other choice and had a family to feed, or whatever. Many are forced into criminality. Others take to it out of hate and revulsion towards a certain section of society. Then the former feels they need to retaliate, and soon the whole thing is out of hand.

Have you ever been to NYC and walked around the Penn Station area? Or the 8th ave? a big part of even the posh 5th ave, and many streets in Midtown Manhattan. You will see almost 98% of the people begging are blacks. Nobody can tell me they beg and that it is such a high percentage because it is in their genes or that they enjoy it. It is because of the reasons you pointed out in your previous post. It is because of decades and decades of being socially disadvantaged, oppressed and marginalised. No wonder some blacks think, very sadly though, if you are not a thug, you are not black - I read this on a link I think somebody (I think bb, but could be wrong about that) posted on another thread, but with a different intent.

A couple of decades ago, like early 20th century, most people were probably a bit racist. But this doesn't mean most people in society were actively working on harming the black community. In fact most of them did nothing to the black community, they just had "bad" thoughts about them

The actual oppression came from the government. It was the government who passed laws preventing them from accessing better jobs, or education, and who protected a paramilitary group to hunt down and terrorize black people.

Once somebody in my social circle told me how he was taught by his father, as part of preparing him for job interviews, to practise proper grammar... things like "you was sitting down" would straight away give away that one was black, and he gave me a few other examples - like a double negative in a sentence and certain pronunciation.

Whilst nobody should be forced to do anything, or gov's should not force integration on people, but the problem is that some only 'behave' when rules are forced on them. Else, if certain people had their way, they would hire only 'their kind' going just by looks. And this would be the case in any many other areas of society.

Have you seen the movie Hidden Figures?

Here is the part I disagree.

Capitalism is color-blind. You want to hire the best person for the job. If you are not doing that, you are hurting your business, and thus the chances of profit. And in many jobs, the best qualified individual is sometimes the one who comes cheaper and has a lower cost. The one you can hire for the lowest possible salary.

Historically people were able to "compete" in the job market against better qualified candidates, by offering to work for lower salaries.

This was a strategy the black community employed to be able to compete with white people. While a white person would work, for example, for $6 an hour, a black person would offer to do the same job for $4. And this is done by a lot of people, even now days, from any race. You market your skills at a lower price in order to compete with those who have either superior skills or more experience.

Now I expect most who read this will feel "horrified" by the idea of unequal payment. However this allows people to access better jobs and have an income, which is better than not having one. And you can always re-negotiate a better salary later on, or eventually move on to a higher paying job.

First, it was the goverment who passed laws which made it harder for black people to apply to specific jobs, or interact with the general public.

It was government laws like minimum wage that actually hurt the uneducated workers more, because it removed the ability for low skilled workers (many of them minorities) to compete with college educated white people. This made it harder for black workers to find jobs which makes it harder for them to provide their children with a proper education.

When government got involved in the economy - its when you begin to have problems.
-- -- --

Look at Jews, Asians or Indians. They initially suffered from some form of racism in the U.S., but there were never laws which targeted them, in contrast with the laws against black people.

Slowly, through generations, without government aid or persecution, they integrated very well and got wealthier and wealthier, and their standard of living increased, and in some cases, surpassed the average earning of white people. In a natural manner without government interference.
 
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aquarius7000

Well-known member
Ok, so you fancy yourself an authority on what constitutes "good behaviour" (all without consulting others) and not only that, you feel that you would be justified in forcing people to behave in the way you like.

Very interesting. Tell me more.
Engaging in an eristic discourse can also be used to pass time. Who cares about the real message of the content? Just argue for the sake of arguing because that can be such a boost for the ego. :rolleyes:

Even if somebody murders someone, one could argue - why are you enforcing upon me to not engage in such criminality. Their logic would be because nobody should force anything upon anyone. After all, they are unable to distinguish in which situations to apply that logic of not forcing things upon someone, and in which situations absolutely not. :rolleyes:
 
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Dirius

Well-known member
Even if somebody murders someone, one could argue - why are you enforcing upon me to not engage in such criminality.

Because of reciprocity. You respect others, they must do the same.

If you infringe on the rights of others, others will infringe on your rights.

You commit a crime against someone else, others will lock you away in jail or kill you. (I'm personally not in favour of death pentalty though).
 
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wan

Well-known member
Engaging in an eristic discourse can also be used to pass time. Who cares about the real message of the content? Just argue for the sake of arguing because that can be such a boost for the ego. :rolleyes:

I do care about and did get the message of your post, and it is this: you personally think being racially tolerant is good, so you try to use the coercive power of the government to force people to be tolerant.

Even if somebody murders someone, one could argue - why are you enforcing upon me to not engage in such criminality. Their logic would be because nobody should force anything upon anyone. After all, they are unable to distinguish in which situations to apply that logic of not forcing things upon someone, and in which situations absolutely not. :rolleyes:

The difference is this: it's a good idea to have laws/rules in place against murder, because murder is universally agreed upon to be bad. Whereas racism isn't. Just look at how many otherwise good people do not want to mix with blacks.
 
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wan

Well-known member
In principle, is it justifiable to enforce ANY rules of behavior on ANYONE?
If so, why some rules and not others?

Some rules are fine and even necessary. The key thing is that it must be universally agreed upon. For example, we all agree that murder is wrong, rape is wrong, assault is wrong...etc, so it's OK to have rules in place against these things.
 
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