The Outer Planets Are Real! So what do we do with them?

david starling

Well-known member
Apologies! I meant no disrespect. We all see things from our own angle of view, and I was too emphatic about my own opinion to make it a fair question. Good answer! My problem is with the "elephant in the corner"--Sidereally, unless you attribute modern technology to an already highly effective Aquarian Age (which is the usual, and [IMO] illogical explanation), you're stuck attributing it to the Piscean Age (which I've never seen anyone claim is the case). The technology REALLY IS new and remarkable. It's as much a change in our relationship with the mundane world as the development of city-states and writing. The previous civilizations of the Ages (Sidereally, Taurus and Aries; Tropically Libra, Scorpio, and Sagittarius) were quite similar in the technology used, and in their "mythologies" (our word for their deeply held religious views, which in itself tells you something about how different we are in that area as well). I see it as Age-seasons, with the Fall-sign Ages engendering city-states and writing, and this first Age of the Winter season impelling electronic technology and world-unification. But, just because there are Tropical, Mundane Ages doesn't mean there aren't ALSO Sidereal, Spiritual Ages. You've just pointed out how well they fit together, while I've been too busy looking at their differences. Thanks! :happy: I believe Pluto entering Aquarius will trigger a new manifestation of the soon-to-arrive Tropical Aquarian Age--not a new technology, a new mental awakening. And, that Tropically, Sagittarius is passing the torch of perceptual progress to Aquarius.
I like your idea about Pisces believing in what cannot be seen....
Uh, hmm....sounds like that book is saying that people of previous Ages, with all their gods and goddesses and nature-spirits, LACKED faith, because they didn't NEED it--they were able to actually SEE what they worshipped. In that case, according to a Synchronistic view: The Sidereal Age of Pisces, which is enabling belief in the Unseen, is essential to maintaining our spiritual connections during this Tropical Age of Capricorn, which is making it so difficult to see beyond the Material-plane. In the future, they'll matchup in their respective Aquarian Ages, and the Mundane and the Spiritual will be on the same wavelength. Should be good! :biggrin:
 
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graay ghost

Well-known member
I don't think outer planets are useless but they seem to represent greater forces. The planets inside the asteroid belt are personal, Jupiter and Saturn are social... so anything past that may be better called societal. Larger individual effects are felt where they are closely attatched to personal planets but otherwise I'd think they're more of an insatiable wave...
 

Frisiangal

Well-known member
Apologies! I meant no disrespect
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And absolutely not thought as such. I did include smilies.:smile:

Sidereally, unless you attribute modern technology to an already highly effective Aquarian Age (which is the usual, and [IMO] illogical explanation), you're stuck attributing it to the Piscean Age (which I've never seen anyone claim is the case). The technology REALLY IS new and remarkable. It's as much a change in our relationship with the mundane world as the development of city-states and writing.

I've never used other than the tropical zodiac, so can't comment upon the accuracy of using the sidereal zodiac, which must be considered through an entirely different frame of mind focus.

From a tropical perspective it's a personal thought that the Aquarian Age is (long) in the 'overlapping' stage with Pisces. There is so much intermingling and inter-exchange of sign qualities occuring throughout the world that would not have been considered possible even a half century ago.
Modern technology isn't yet in a 'highly effective' stage of Aquarius. As you say,it is new. Yet it WILL continue to progress over the 1/12th of The Great Year period it covers. It's rather like getting the feet (pardon the Pisces association!) into another pair of shoes! Takes a while for them to fit comfortably, after which one can safely do away with the old pair.:biggrin:

........ just because there are Tropical, Mundane Ages doesn't mean there aren't ALSO Sidereal, Spiritual Ages.

I have to admit that, even writing as I have done, my mind has also been able to look at those same qualities through a Sag-Cap. perspective.

I believe Pluto entering Aquarius will trigger a new manifestation of the soon-to-arrive Tropical Aquarian Age--not a new technology, a new mental awakening. And, that Tropically, Sagittarius is passing the torch of perceptual progress to Aquarius.

I agree with the first sentance, and am still trying to work out the second.
What happened to Capricorn?

I like your idea about Pisces believing in what cannot be seen....
Doesn't every astrologer have that perspective?
I still think that Pisces' 'faith' is a step beyond 'belief'.

Uh, hmm....sounds like that book is saying that people of previous Ages, with all their gods and goddesses and nature-spirits, LACKED faith, because they didn't NEED it--they were able to actually SEE what they worshipped.

Every Age had its god 'idol worship' of one kind and another to which it bowed. The 'Age of Faith' described how the various major religions/cults across the continents internalised this 'faith' towards the unseen, that was externally personified through the power of the spiritual leaders. The South Americas were particularly gorey with their human sacrifices. :sick:

In that case, according to a Synchronistic view: The Sidereal Age of Pisces, which is enabling belief in the Unseen, is essential to maintaining our spiritual connections during this Tropical Age of Capricorn, which is making it so difficult to see beyond the Material-plane. In the future, they'll matchup in their respective Aquarian Ages, and the Mundane and the Spiritual will be on the same wavelength. Should be good! :biggrin:

Amen to that.:smile:
 

CapAquaPis

Well-known member
Absolutely they are! Chiron and Ceres are real too, Chiron might be the co-ruler of Taurus and/or Virgo, and so is Ceres. Where do you think Aquarians got their weirdness from? Saturn doesn't provide that aspect, you can see Uranus does its best to my sun sign. And the age of Aquarius is typically Uranian: the one era where minds are wide open than ever before.
 

david starling

Well-known member
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Every Age had its god 'idol worship' of one kind and another to which it bowed. The 'Age of Faith' described how the various major religions/cults across the continents internalised this 'faith' towards the unseen, that was externally personified through the power of the spiritual leaders. The South Americas were particularly gorey with their human sacrifices. :sick:

Tropically, I see cruelty and atrocities in the name of Religion as a LOSS of faith due to an extremely materialistic Age caused by the fear engendered by its Saturnian rulership. It's appropriate that you put "faith" in quotations!
 
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david starling

Well-known member
How do you explain weirdness with Uranus exactly?

You do know this is the Modern Forum, right? No fair picking on the "On Beyond Saturns"! :lol:
In this case "weirdness" means "not business as usual" which causes discomfort for those who prefer everything to remain the same.
 
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graay ghost

Well-known member
Absolutely they are! Chiron and Ceres are real too, Chiron might be the co-ruler of Taurus and/or Virgo, and so is Ceres. Where do you think Aquarians got their weirdness from? Saturn doesn't provide that aspect, you can see Uranus does its best to my sun sign. And the age of Aquarius is typically Uranian: the one era where minds are wide open than ever before.

What about Ceres? We hear so little about her.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Hmm, what you describe is the progress, it is upbeat, and people admire such a progressive spirit in Aquarius, so that's not the weird part. I very much agree that Aquarius are the weirdos, but not for that reason. It's not Uranus being the weirdo. Uranus is "the fast time", the fast resources, and opportunism, because opportunism means to take the right path at the very right moment, but it means also to be able to value what's the "best" path to take, like a fast intuition that just focuses on the detail that interest you the most, in that moment. That's why you can see an Aquarius befriending forever the first cool person under their eyes, or changing friends and relationships with the new season. But that's no weirdness. Weirdness is what you can't describe and leaves an aftertaste in your mouth. Neptune is weird. Pluto is weird. Not Uranus.

I can't even understand all the symbolism associated to Uranus, they make no sense, "the planet of technology, computers, the future and humanitarian ideas" (what? how are those 2 related why???1") " Astrology is also within its realm" (what does this even mean...).

"Weirdness" is anything you can't personally relate to your own experience and viewpoint. It's subjective. For example, I thought your "smear them on toast" comment was kind of weird. :unsure: Not sure what it meant....
As for the Uranian influence in the Chart, it seems to be neutral regarding "Progress", but increases mental ability in whatever Sign and House it's located. No agenda, just ability.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
And how is "increased mental ability" (and I'm questioning the meaning of this now..) a sign of weirdness ? I have trouble understanding the logic behind Uranus and all the meanings that authors seem to give to it. Yes Aquarians are weird and oppose the very stable Leo, father of our system, of course we need a reformer on the other hand; and of course Uranus can't have all those meanings. Technology, intuition, inspiration, humanities... something else? Does it cook too? I tend to think when there are 2 or 3 totally different meanings, then 1 or 2 meanings are wrong.

Well, I have a sort of axe to grind here. As you may have read, I've been proposing a different Age sequence entirely--one configured Tropically, with Direct-motion. So, instead of an Age of Pisces preceding the Age of Aquarius, it's an Age of Capricorn. I attribute advanced technology to Capricorn and Saturn. I also did the math and studied the situation thoroughly regarding the conventional, SIDEREAL Ages, and the conventionally-known Aquarian Age HASN'T started yet--in fact, it's still 6 to 10 degrees AWAY from starting, at 71.6 YEARS per degree.. Either the technology which distinguishes this Age from past Ages is the end result of the Sidereal Age of Pisces, or the end result of the Tropical Age of Capricorn. Since I believe it's the latter, I DON'T connect the Uranian-effect with technological advancement.
Just to establish context: Tropical Age of Libra, the invention of city-state civilization, Tigris Euphrates Valley; Tropical Age of Scorpio, epitomized by the culture of Ancient-Egypt; and the Age of Tropical Sagittarius, epitomized by Ancient-Greece. Tropical, Cardinal-sign Ages are innovative, and have to overcome the resistance of tradition, so their full results occur at the end, in the last few degrees (which is now); whereas Tropical, Fixed-sign Ages are focused and intense, and show full results during the first part of the Age (which is soon). We're in the changeover era, from the effectiveness of Cardinal right into the effectiveness of Fixed. In this case, from technological advancement into the advancement of our latent mental-abilities (which is where the Uranian-effect becomes evident).
 
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david starling

Well-known member
I don't really see why I should take for valid the explanation given by a hypothetical Aquarius age, that is a really questionable "era" if we have to consider the overall influences these eras brought; anyway most authors who studied it agreed that it started already. That said, to me, the beauty of having new planets is that we can discover all over again what the other planets mean. Now that we have Pluto we know IT is creativity, Neptune instead take those Moon/Venus features and bring them higher, IT is inspiration and geniality, Uranus, working with Aquarius AND Capricorn, takes the very handy, useful, technological, cold, brainy features that both the signs have, in different qualities. In Capricorn is the "law" before progress, in Aquarius it's progress before the law (Saturn). But it's not the full picture. Please if you have 2 sec have a look at my music thread, notice the aspects, Uranus gets most aspected with Mars, as if it indicated a sort of sublimation of violence, into technologic (useful) form. That's what I meant about "opportunism" and Aquarius, they have the ability to turn situations around them into something "useful", but that's no weirdness. You don't point that out of an Aquarius at first, you notice their extreme adaptability, their will to listen to everyone and everything, and bring their own insight, you notice their extreme love or affinity for everything unusual, you notice that soft touch, well, that's so not Uranus to me..
Regarding the Aquarian Age:
"Most authors who studied it" are completely ignoring the Sidereal-sign placements, and engaging in purely wishful thinking. Remember, with an Age of Pisces as the only alternative to an Age of Aquarius, of course they have to explain advancements in technology by moving the Sidereal sign-boundaries to MAKE it be an Age of Aquarius--cart before the horse! Once you've settled on the Sidereal sign-locations for drawing a Chart, you're stuck with the Chart position of the Vernal Equinoctial Point (which is the conventional Sidereal Age-Indicator nearly all those authors are using). And, nearly all Sidereal Astrologers have the V.E.P. 6 to 10 degrees AWAY from the boundary between Pisces and Aquarius. An Age of Tropical Capricorn, with Direct-motion of the Age-Indicator through the Tropical-chart, explains the technology perfectly, and has the Aquarian Age on deck, coming up next.
Really like your music thread, btw! :happy:
 
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david starling

Well-known member
I have this concept of "Native-rulership", whereby the "vibration" associated with an Indicator's longitudinal location along the Ecliptic, evokes a "Sign-program" in the native's psyche. The Uranian vibration produces the Aquarian Sign-program, in its purest form. (Neptune for Pisces, and Pluto for Scorpio.) I like Capricorn, but not its producer, Saturn--I consider Capricorn as a triumph of the human-spirit over adversity. You apparently like Aquarius, but not the vibration that evokes it. How is :uranus: Aspected in your Chart? That could explain why. Although, maybe Aquarius is a triumph of the human spirit when it comes to dealing with undirected intelligence. But, if the Uranian influence doesn't, by itself, move us in a benevolent direction, that doesn't bode well for the Age of Aquarius--could be an Age of Mind-Wars!
 
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david starling

Well-known member
lol you're funny

my Uranus is in first house conj Saturn and Neptune lol

hm and here again I have to tell you, you can't explain Uranus qualities by what some hippies described a "hypothetical Aquarian age" to be like!!! It doesn't work like this!!! : )

I agree, actually. In order to know what the Aquarian Age will manifest, we first need to know more about it's Age Lord. For Modern-astrologers, it's about what effect so many Centuries of Uranian dispositorship of Earth's Age will have. For those Traditional-astrologers who recognize the power of the Ages concept, the Aquarian Age is already envisioned as a grim prospect of Malefic Saturn's increase in power and authority. But the Planet beyond Saturn is still relatively new, and there is disagreement on the basic nature of its Expression. Since the Aquarian Age hasn't begun yet, we have to extrapolate from the KNOWN Uranian effect in the Chart. And, because for Modern-astrologers, :uranus: will be the dispositor of Earth's Age-sign, it's important to know how it functions as dispositor for the other Planets located in Aquarius. Here's my question: What sort of effect do you feel it has in the 1st House in your Chart? Might be difficult to tell--that's one H*LL of a Stellium/Conjunction!!! From a Modern perspective, of course. :wink: I'm presently inclined towards thinking it's "user-friendly", at least in my own Chart.
I'm quite serious about the conventional, well-known Aquarian Age not having started yet, and I have yet to have heard or read anything that proves it has, after 40+ years of study.
 
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aldebaran

Well-known member
I must confess I'm a great fan of outer planets. And that's for inspecting astrology by psychological attempts, and finding in them what I don't find only in the seven.
 

StillOne

Well-known member
Hi StillOne,
Am I right in thinking your approach towards astrology is more through the traditional concept than the astrology that includes the influences of the outer planets (aka 'modern' astrology)? I can understand that this could explain title of the thread'; i.e. how can astrology ignore planets that ARE there as if they did not exist.
Hi Frisiangal, no I'm very much under the Modernist umbrella.

I figured that since this is the Modern section, a good discussion on the Outers should happen!

What I don't understand is, if you ARE using, and relate to their 'impact', what are you querying?
I suppose my question really relates to how we should use the Outers to delineate a chart optimally... since it seems people differ on how to use them (ie. no rulership, etc). Just trying to get a feel for how people look at them generally.

In general terms, I believe the 'modern 'approach to the outers is their influence 'on the world as a whole', which many term as 'the collective conscious'.

What I personally believe it means when an outer planet is in aspect to a personal planet is, that every individual can experience and be influenced by the same type of energy, whether they live in the heart of a major city, in a hut in the density of the Amazon forest, or a tent in the middle of Sahara. E.g. Uranus readjustment towards shifts of change, followed by Neptune disintegration, and Pluto's annhilation of old patterns to instigate new approaches to life situations, are always occuring in all walks of life. Nothing ever remains the same (and that written by a Taurus Sun!:biggrin:).

Such can occur in the micro personal world just as it does in the outer Macro world, in the sense that everyone can experience the effect of a Uranus type separation that is like a world shattering Earthquake (to them); the Neptune dissolution that can wash everything away that ever preceeded it, and the Pluto explosion that is similar to a Volcano eruption that can be experienced as an intimidating force which is beyond one's personal control.
All can create shocks in the outer world that effect millions, just as much as in the personal world that effects an individual.

On a Macro level, who is not personally affected by situations around the globe, even if they are occuring thousands of miles away. Which country is not affected by the Jet Stream, Global Warming, IS, New Governments, failed harvests, etc.etc. that is going to effect the manner of living of every individual in it.

I believe the outer planet influence does mean the necessity of being able to see the Macroscopic Big Picture and how each Micrscopic individual plays its part within its manifestation.

As far as orbs, I still find the max. 8* orb to work in natal charts. Individual influence depends upon whether the personal planet is approaching the outer planet (applying degree) or in a position to (have) jump(ed) and get over it (separating degree.)
I use the max. 1½* applying/separating orb for transits.
Secondary progressions turning direct or retrograde during life can also be significant.

What do you consider the outer planet influence to be ?:smile:
Well stated! :smile:
 
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StillOne

Well-known member
Believe it or not, I consider the outers to have just as significant influence upon individuals as the traditional 7 planets do, and just as much influence upon individuals as upon mundane matters; I started out believing that the outers mainly influenced large groups of people (essentially mundane matters) but my experience in delineation has convinced me beyond any doubt, that the outer planets Uranus and Neptune, and even the planetoid Pluto, have significant influences upon individual horoscopes:sideways:...
Good to know! Thanks

And I concur to that.

Two things that I would like to point out though, per the experience that I have gathered over the years, is that:

a) traditional planetary rulerships of signs work better (so Saturn does rule Cap and Aqua for me)

b) in an individual's native and transits' chart, in order to determine the planetary influences upon the native, I look at the aspects between the outer planets and the traditional (inner) planets, and not between the outer planets (so not from Nep to Plu), as those are more generational influences and do not tell you how the next half year for the native is going to be.
I think the rulerships is what I find most interesting. As I think about it, I resonate more with Modern rulers (ie. Aqua is ruled by Uranus, Pisces by Neptune and Scorpio by Pluto). That just makes sense to me when I think about the qualities of the sign and what the planetary energies are.

I agree: and I use the traditional planets are the rulers of the signs, UNLESS in a particular chart that planet is inhibited from its fullest expression (by being in a pitted degree or combust-within 5 degrees-of the Sun), and THEN, under those special circumstances peculiar to that PARTICULAR chart, I'll bring in the outer as defacto ruler of the sign. If BOTH the traditional ruler of the sign and the outer planet to be used as substitute ruler are inhibited, then I go to the ruling planet of the decan (Manilius decan for me) for the defacto ruler (of that sign in that chart), and proceed in that way...
Interesting. :joyful:
 

StillOne

Well-known member
The era we are in can be viewed as rather empathetic and peaceful, if you make a comparison with the oldest ones.. but to me it's light years from an Aquarian "enlightened" realm

IMO, I think it remains to be seen... especially once technology finishes it's evolution. Disruptive innovation seems to be a current theme.
 
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Kite

Well-known member
Great discussion. Some points I'll make to the various threads in this post.

1. I agree that on a personal basis most people are unaware and unaffected by the Transpersonal planets as they are operating on a purely Sun centered level (ego). However - as evolution calls (in the guise of the Transpersonals) they become much more operative in shifting out of a purely ego-based orientation.

2. A great book that was popular during the 60s was called the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ. Claimed to be a channeled piece of work from the early 20th Century - it developed the Piscean narrative of all the Water based miracles characteristic of how the Ages carve out mythological themes within the religious stories. In Aries we had the blood the lamb and in the story of Moses and the Israelites building the Golden Calf we saw a regression into Taurus what was highly frowned upon as the new I AM that I AM (Aries) appeared as Fire in a bush. In the Gospel - Jesus is positioned as a Model for the Age of Aquarius that wouldn't take hold until that Age. In the Age of Pisces mankind still needed idols and external Gods to worship - that would change in the Age of Aquarius as the divinity within would be grasped. Faith would give way to Knowing which seems to be a keyword for Aquarius and its quality of Air. What we seem to be dealing with in these transitional times is a battle between blind faith (fundamentalism) and reductionist logic (scientism). Eventually a spiritual science will develop I hope that will bridge these areas. Chiron could help in moving from the purely Personal Sun centered egoism to the Transpersonal Galactic point of view.

3. I've found that the Transpersonals are very involved when looking at midpoints. For instance - I called out the Uranus Transit to the Natal Moon/Mars midpoint that would be exact for Donald Trump on April 5. It was on that day that he planned his attack which occurred the next day on the Syrians. The surprise attack had an emotional component to it as he decried the chemical weapons being used on babies. The next hit that transiting Uranus makes to his chart is on April 14 when it exactly hits his Mercury/Pluto midpoint. This speaks of some kind of mental obsessiveness with new surprising developments - we'll see. He does have Uranus prominent in his chart as the highest planet in the 10th house and has been known to be chaotic. Whether this is in service to the greater good or not, time will tell.
 
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