The liberal message of Jesus
- Thread starter waybread
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david starling
Well-known member
"As you do unto the least of these...."-{Matthew 25:40}
Oddity
Well-known member
Okay. I thought you meant this as an actual thought experiment. It's obvious that you didn't. So there's really no point.
david starling
Well-known member
I don't see how anyone can make a case that Jesus would, today, be a wealthy neocon who blamed the poor for their problems and favored the rich.
You're talking about crazy Nancy right?
With her over 100 Million dollars she stole from the taxpayer while in Congress for decades?
Or Obama who went into the WH with nothing & now he's worth about 100 Million too.
Beijing Biden? In fact, the entire Biden family has gotten very wealthy thanks to China & the Ukraine.
Same with the Clintons.
China Mitch.
Sure, they 'earned' it. No corruption or criminal activity involved.
Nothing to see here people. Move on.
With her over 100 Million dollars she stole from the taxpayer while in Congress for decades?
Or Obama who went into the WH with nothing & now he's worth about 100 Million too.
Beijing Biden? In fact, the entire Biden family has gotten very wealthy thanks to China & the Ukraine.
Same with the Clintons.
China Mitch.
Sure, they 'earned' it. No corruption or criminal activity involved.
Nothing to see here people. Move on.
david starling
Well-known member
You're talking about crazy Nancy right?
With her over 100 Million dollars she stole from the taxpayer while in Congress for decades?
Or Obama who went into the WH with nothing & now he's worth about 100 Million too.
Beijing Biden? In fact, the entire Biden family has gotten very wealthy thanks to China & the Ukraine.
Same with the Clintons.
China Mitch.
Sure, they 'earned' it. No corruption or criminal activity involved.
Nothing to see here people. Move on.
No, it's about whether Jesus would favor programs that help the poor and disadvantaged. Neocons are against that.
NO Spiritual Teacher would go near that demonic hole that they call Washington, D.C.
It's a big pile of stinking dog doo. (apology to dogs who are far better than the corrupt politicians who are there).
It's a big pile of stinking dog doo. (apology to dogs who are far better than the corrupt politicians who are there).
david starling
Well-known member
I don't know. Was Jesus explicitly and zealously anti-abortion?
[Actual question. I haven't seen anything about it in Scripture, but, I'm not a Biblical scholar.]
As far as taxpayer's dollars, should pacifists, for example, have to help pay for wars?
Oddity
Well-known member
Interesting question. We don't have much of anything to go on in the bible. Halachically, it depends on who you follow - though I think Jesus would be likely to be strict on this one. If the mother will die from the pregnancy or birth, abortion is permissible, pretty much mandatory, as the person who's already alive takes precedence. If the child will die young, or has Tay-Sachs then abortion is permissible to the seventh month.
There have been rabbis who held that the fetus is part of the mother, and therefore abortion is fully permissible. Probably not the way Jesus would go - but of course, I could be mistaken here.
Bear in mind that Christians are not bound by Jewish law, and some of their denominations are considerably more strict.
As for pacifism, I agree with you. If you feel that war is totally immoral, if you wouldn't even defend yourself - you should not be forced to fund wars, it would go against your conscience too much.
david starling
Well-known member
There's another question: If a law is based solely on religious beliefs, and we live in a country where there's a "separation between Church and State", should the government be allowed to force everyone to obey it whether or not they share those religious beliefs?
leomoon
Well-known member
For those not familiar with James, he was the brother of Jesus, perhaps the son of Joseph, therefore, not necessarily a blood brother or from Mary his mother.
He is mentioned as such in Galatians (Paul):
However, Jesus had so much faith in James, saw his heart and knew him well that he said to his followers who asked, "Who should we follow when you are gone?"
Jesus answered: "Go to James - for whose sake, heaven & earth came into existence" (perhaps he was one of the original perfect souls, i.e. angels? Sounds like it) making reference to the "beginning" of the earth's plane.
* Gospel of Thomas saying 12
http://earlychristianwritings.com/thomas/gospelthomas12.html
http://www.thenazareneway.com/james_the_brother_of_jesus.htm
James 4:13-15 REGARDING THE MATERIAL WORLD HE REMINDED:
Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”
Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/
ref"Galatians 1:19 19I saw none of the other apostles-only James, the LORD's brother.
Early church fathers: -
He is mentioned as such in Galatians (Paul):
However, Jesus had so much faith in James, saw his heart and knew him well that he said to his followers who asked, "Who should we follow when you are gone?"
Jesus answered: "Go to James - for whose sake, heaven & earth came into existence" (perhaps he was one of the original perfect souls, i.e. angels? Sounds like it) making reference to the "beginning" of the earth's plane.
* Gospel of Thomas saying 12
http://earlychristianwritings.com/thomas/gospelthomas12.html
http://www.thenazareneway.com/james_the_brother_of_jesus.htm
James 4:13-15 REGARDING THE MATERIAL WORLD HE REMINDED:
Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”
Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/
ref"Galatians 1:19 19I saw none of the other apostles-only James, the LORD's brother.
Early church fathers: -
Eusebius of Caesarea (260-340 CE), Archbishop under Constantine, tells us in his "Ecclesiastical History" that James was "The lord's brother, who had been elected by the Apostles to the episcopal throne at Jerusalem," - "Ecclesiastical History" 2.23
Knowing Jesus would soon depart from them, his Disciples, according to the non-canonical Gospel of Thomas, (buried and preserved in Nag Hammadi, Egypt), asked him who would lead them, "And Jesus said to them, 'In the place you are to go, go to James the Righteous, for whose sake Heaven and Earth came into existence.'"
Jerome (342-420 CE), basing his knowledge on Hegesippus, Clement of Alexandria, and the Jewish historian Josephus, also knows this when he says in his "Lives of Illustrious Men" that "He [James] alone enjoyed the privilege of entering the Holy of Holies, since, indeed, he did not wear woolen, but only linen clothes, and went into the Temple alone and prayed on behalf of the people, so that his knees were reputed to have acquired the callousness of a camel's knees," and that after Jesus departed "was immediately appointed Bishop of Jerusalem by the Apostles." - "Lives of Illustrious Men" chapter 2
Palestinian Jewish Christian Hegesippus (100-180 CE), portions of whose five books of early Church history only survive in passages cited by Eusebius, tells us, "There were many James', but this one...the Lord's brother...was Holy from his birth. Everyone from the Lord's time till our own has called him the Righteous," and that "ecause of his unsurpassable Righteousness he was called the Righteous, and Oblias," (E.H. 2.23)
Knowing Jesus would soon depart from them, his Disciples, according to the non-canonical Gospel of Thomas, (buried and preserved in Nag Hammadi, Egypt), asked him who would lead them, "And Jesus said to them, 'In the place you are to go, go to James the Righteous, for whose sake Heaven and Earth came into existence.'"
Jerome (342-420 CE), basing his knowledge on Hegesippus, Clement of Alexandria, and the Jewish historian Josephus, also knows this when he says in his "Lives of Illustrious Men" that "He [James] alone enjoyed the privilege of entering the Holy of Holies, since, indeed, he did not wear woolen, but only linen clothes, and went into the Temple alone and prayed on behalf of the people, so that his knees were reputed to have acquired the callousness of a camel's knees," and that after Jesus departed "was immediately appointed Bishop of Jerusalem by the Apostles." - "Lives of Illustrious Men" chapter 2
Palestinian Jewish Christian Hegesippus (100-180 CE), portions of whose five books of early Church history only survive in passages cited by Eusebius, tells us, "There were many James', but this one...the Lord's brother...was Holy from his birth. Everyone from the Lord's time till our own has called him the Righteous," and that "ecause of his unsurpassable Righteousness he was called the Righteous, and Oblias," (E.H. 2.23)
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leomoon
Well-known member
We can readily see, that people's basic needs while on this earth, i.e. food, their health, was always very important to him! It should be to ALL of us, to care for our brothers & sisters who have less then we (imo) Those of us who claim Christian values. The Muslem actually are also quite generous as I found out traveling through Turkey and Egypt - They always fed the poor. I went to a large empty building that was set up with wooden tables and wooden benches, and ate home made soup and other finger foods one day and was told in Turkey that this is where they feed the poor who come for sustenance. Its in their religion (I was told) they HAVE to, or they defy the teachings given to them.
But just like here in the USA, there are plenty who seem to have fallen away from these acts of generosity given to them by their teachers. I can't walk by a person hungry with children sitting on the pavement begging without bringing back to her my dinner that was left over..and did often. The locals simply ignored her.
We do the same everyday in this country when we ignore suffering individually OR of the masses. (imo)
John 6:5
Therefore Jesus, lifting up His eyes and seeing that a large crowd was coming to Him, *said to Philip, “Where are we to buy bread, so that these may eat?”
Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/
The event at the home of Martha & Mary was one of note, because all 3 of the gospel writers mentioned it as important. That was when Jesus scolded his apostles for saying this to Mary who used the special perfumed ointment to wash his feet when they arrived. I would imagine the dust in Israel is heavy laden on sandals, and feel like with the Moslem people (who still wash them today everytime before they pray) - is a common theme for both cultures:
Matthew 26:9
For this perfume might have been sold for a high price and the money given to the poor.”
Mark 14:5
For this perfume might have been sold for over three hundred denarii, and the money given to the poor.” And they were scolding her.
John 12:5
“Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and given to poor people?”
Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Money,-Uses-Of
Of course, we note as he said that we ALL tend to think automatically in a practical earthly vein and not the emotional refreshing that a soul needs besides food to sustain him or her.
What is the old saying we use today?
......"Man does not live by bread alone" along those ideas.
But just like here in the USA, there are plenty who seem to have fallen away from these acts of generosity given to them by their teachers. I can't walk by a person hungry with children sitting on the pavement begging without bringing back to her my dinner that was left over..and did often. The locals simply ignored her.
We do the same everyday in this country when we ignore suffering individually OR of the masses. (imo) John 6:5
Therefore Jesus, lifting up His eyes and seeing that a large crowd was coming to Him, *said to Philip, “Where are we to buy bread, so that these may eat?”
Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/
The event at the home of Martha & Mary was one of note, because all 3 of the gospel writers mentioned it as important. That was when Jesus scolded his apostles for saying this to Mary who used the special perfumed ointment to wash his feet when they arrived. I would imagine the dust in Israel is heavy laden on sandals, and feel like with the Moslem people (who still wash them today everytime before they pray) - is a common theme for both cultures:
Matthew 26:9
For this perfume might have been sold for a high price and the money given to the poor.”
Mark 14:5
For this perfume might have been sold for over three hundred denarii, and the money given to the poor.” And they were scolding her.
John 12:5
“Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and given to poor people?”
Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Money,-Uses-Of
Of course, we note as he said that we ALL tend to think automatically in a practical earthly vein and not the emotional refreshing that a soul needs besides food to sustain him or her.
What is the old saying we use today?
......"Man does not live by bread alone" along those ideas.
leomoon
Well-known member
https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-borough...o-avoid-johnson---johnson-vaccine-if-possible
Regarding abortions - Has anyone else heard the news that the United States Bishops have been telling people not to get the Covid19 injection because of the use of fetal cells to develop it?
THAT I think is a step too far! (from a fallen away Roman Catholic, long ago)
(its just for J & J apparently) but I'm scheduled to get J&J next Tuesday. I feel like I won the lottery or something (lucky)
Through CVS
https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/03/health/bishops-catholics-johnson-and-johnson-vaccine/index.html
Regarding abortions - Has anyone else heard the news that the United States Bishops have been telling people not to get the Covid19 injection because of the use of fetal cells to develop it?
THAT I think is a step too far!
(from a fallen away Roman Catholic, long ago) (its just for J & J apparently) but I'm scheduled to get J&J next Tuesday. I feel like I won the lottery or something (lucky)
Through CVS
https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/03/health/bishops-catholics-johnson-and-johnson-vaccine/index.html
Oddity
Well-known member
We may find out if the Equality Act passes the Senate. There's a lot in there that would force people to betray their religious beliefs to follow the legally mandated new religion of Equality.
Stay tuned.
Stay tuned.
waybread
Well-known member
Blackbery, David can speak for himself but I don't think he intended to focus on specific American political leaders.
I certainly was not trying to politicize the thread in this fashion.
But do you think Jesus would have spoken as you have done? He was critical of the orthodox Jewish clergy of his day, but I don't think he ever verbally assaulted political leaders of his corner of the Roman empire.
I certainly was not trying to politicize the thread in this fashion.
But do you think Jesus would have spoken as you have done? He was critical of the orthodox Jewish clergy of his day, but I don't think he ever verbally assaulted political leaders of his corner of the Roman empire.
david starling
Well-known member
I have no doubt that Jesus would have been against the death penalty. That's generally, although not exclusively, a Liberal position.
As for abortion, it gets more complicated. And, since Liberals, like Libertarians, are divided on this issue, and there's nothing explicit about it in the teachings of Jesus, there's no way to know for certain what Jesus would say about it in modern times.
david starling
Well-known member
Waybread, isn't this thread about whether the teachings of Jesus were more in tune with what today is generally known politically as Liberalism; as opposed to what's generally known politically as Conservatism?
Or is it about religious tolerance and the Golden Rule, all politics aside?
waybread
Well-known member
David, I was thinking the former, but actually it would be good to see more practice of the Golden Rule on this thread, all politics aside.
I find it sad that Blackbery's response, in a thread about a man who preached "love your enemies" and non-violence, is invective against specific American political leaders.
I find it sad that Blackbery's response, in a thread about a man who preached "love your enemies" and non-violence, is invective against specific American political leaders.