Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Other Astrology

Other Astrology Here, you can discuss anything else astrological that doesn't belong in the other boards. Includes medical astrology, mundane astrology, parts, sports astrology, research and development, degree symbols, fixed stars, asteroids, symbols systems, karma, and Aquarian astrology.


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #376  
Unread 03-27-2020, 10:42 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,863
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Isn't there a "Day of Judgment" in the Hebrew scripture , where the dead awake from slumber in the underworld?
The beliefs on "the end of days" are summarized here, if it's any help. Beliefs are multiple and they don't all agree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology

One thing I'd point out, though, is that Judaism does not have a worked-out belief in an afterlife, as does Christianity. The saying is that we don't know anybody who died and then came back to tell us about it. (Jews do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus.)

Another thing, is that in some sense, judgment of observant Jews is an ongoing part of the Jewish calendar. In the days leading up to Yom Kippur, Jews are asked to make up for any transgressions they may have committed against other people. It's a time to make amends.

__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to waybread For This Useful Post:
david starling (03-27-2020)
  #377  
Unread 03-27-2020, 11:08 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,147
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

There are other (non-glorified) resurrections in the Bible - 1 Kings 17:21-22, 2 Kings 4:32-35, 2 Kings 13:20-21, Luke 7:13-15, Luke 8:52-55 and John 11:43-44.

The resurrection of Jesus is more well documented than any of these with over five hundred eyewitnesses. Some Jews would say that even if the resurrection of Jesus did occur, he still isn't going to be the Messiah.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to petosiris For This Useful Post:
david starling (03-27-2020)
  #378  
Unread 03-27-2020, 11:19 PM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 22,527
Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

I read some Christian opinions regarding the word "Satan", and not all believe in an actual Being with that name, just anyone in authority with evil intent.
Reply With Quote
  #379  
Unread 03-27-2020, 11:21 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,147
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
I read some Christian opinions regarding the word "Satan", and not all believe in an actual Being with that name, just anyone in authority with evil intent.
Jesus called Peter Satan - Matthew 16:23. The actual being that is chief in the demonic world is Ha-Satan - The Satan.
Reply With Quote
  #380  
Unread 03-27-2020, 11:42 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,863
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Jesus called Peter Satan - Matthew 16:23. The actual being that is chief in the demonic world is Ha-Satan - The Satan.
Satan isn't real. There is no "demonic world."

As Leomoon pointed out, the belief in Satan is a human creation.

The God who created the cosmos, and who is all-powerful, all-pervasive, and the paramount symbol of love, is far stronger than any folklore or superstitions about non-existent demons.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #381  
Unread 03-27-2020, 11:47 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,863
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

There are no 500 documentations of the resurrection of Jesus. During his lifetime and shortly thereafter, Jesus is not mentioned outside of the NT and aprocrypha. The mention in Josephus is a post-hoc addition by an editor. But you're right. The Jewish criteria for the Messiah of the end-of-days include a time of peace, and this hasn't happened yet.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #382  
Unread 03-27-2020, 11:52 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,147
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

You didn't answer my questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
But is says that the Messiah will be cut off for the transgression of others in Isaiah 53, surely Israel never died?
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
None of these things have to occur for a Messiah to be recognized. Didn't Rabbi Akiva think Bar Kokhba was the Messiah? Don't thousands of Jews today expect the Lubavitcher Rebbe to rise from the dead because he is the Messiah?
Reply With Quote
  #383  
Unread 03-27-2020, 11:54 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,147
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
There are no 500 documentations of the resurrection of Jesus. During his lifetime and shortly thereafter, Jesus is not mentioned outside of the NT and aprocrypha. The mention in Josephus is a post-hoc addition by an editor. But you're right. The Jewish criteria for the Messiah of the end-of-days include a time of peace, and this hasn't happened yet.
The mention of the martyrdom of his brother (who saw him after the resurrection) by Josephus is not an addition. NT and apocrypha is not small amount of evidence.
Reply With Quote
  #384  
Unread 03-27-2020, 11:58 PM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 22,527
Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Jesus called Peter Satan - Matthew 16:23. The actual being that is chief in the demonic world is Ha-Satan - The Satan.
So, not necessarily of evil intent, just adversarial to God's plan for humanity; although, possibly with good intentions while lacking an understanding concerning God's intentions.
Reply With Quote
  #385  
Unread 03-28-2020, 05:45 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,863
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Petosiris, I am under no obligation to answer any of your questions. You haven't answered some of mine (like who you think my "teachers" are, since I am secular,) but who's keeping score?

For me personally, I don 't take the Bible literally, and I don't believe that Isaiah predicted Jesus as the suffering servant , so your question about Isaiah 53 actually doesn't make much sense to me. Isaiah 53, as a work of literature, speaks profoundly to human suffering, and I find sufficient meaning in that alone.

The historical Jesus would have been well-versed in the Jewish Bible, and it is interesting how sometimes he deliberately seems to have organized his life so as to fulfill particulars of the prophets' sayings about the messiah. In the NT his life was not full of crushing punishment, however, until the very end.

In the OT, it frequently happens that divine punishment might be incurred by one individual but it is applied generally.

There is also a lot of cultural astronomy in both the OT and NT, but that's another topic.

In terms of some kind of normative Jewish interpretation, one thing to keep in mind, is that with a Jewish tradition spanning many centuries and far-flung countries, and no centralized authority like the Pope, it is not unusual to find differences of opinion in scriptural interpretations.

The servant mentioned in Is. 53 is nowhere in this chapter called the Messiah. The servant might have been a metaphor for the Jewish people, or perhaps a specific leader (for whom there were several Jewish candidates. King Hezekiah is a likely one.) Isaiah was written at a time of devastating wars. Punishment from God was sometimes likened to a father punishing his child-- a harsh but necessary corrective.

Some Jews, like some Christians and members of other faiths, have sometimes followed charismatic leaders-- with disastrous results. Generally they ultimately realized that these leaders were not the Messiah.

Again, you cannot take any one sect or event as somehow normative of the whole. The Lubavitchers (Chabad) are a Chassidic sect.

Petosiris, I early mentioned the major groups within Judaism. There are many minor ones. Orthodox Jews of Ashkenazi (eastern European) background can generally be divided into two groups: the Chassidim and the Mitnagdim. The Chassids embrace a more mystical, even magical world view. The Mitnagdim basically includes Orthodox Jews who function more normally in modern society. Neither group is affiliated with the more liberal Conservative and Reform movements of North America.

There is an old saying that if you get 3 Jews together in a discussion, you will hear 4 different opinions. But the gist of this joke is that it is important to understand the differences between groups of Jews. They are comparative to the divisions within Christianity between Roman Catholics, eastern Orthodox, "high" and "low" church Protestants, Mormons, Pentacostals, Anabaptists, &c.

There is a common core for the Jewish denominations, but you're not going to find it with your focus on messianic biblical proof texts. Maybe start by understanding the core of Jewish worship today. For instance, like the Shema (Sh'ma) prayer, which is so central.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-shema/
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 03-28-2020 at 05:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #386  
Unread 03-28-2020, 05:49 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 22,527
Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Here's a Jewish joke I heard, regarding Jesus: "One of our boys made it!"
Reply With Quote
  #387  
Unread 03-28-2020, 05:58 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,863
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
The mention of the martyrdom of his brother (who saw him after the resurrection) by Josephus is not an addition. NT and apocrypha is not small amount of evidence.
The point being, that these are not historical evidence.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Josephus

I fully believe that there was an actual man named Jesus, a Jewish reformer, who preached a stringent code of ethics, and attracted followers. I can also believe that at some point Jesus and his followers believed that he was the Messiah of the end-of-days. From these beliefs they fashioned a powerful new religion called Christianity.

But honestly, Petosiris, that's about it.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #388  
Unread 03-28-2020, 03:35 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,147
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
You haven't answered some of mine (like who you think my "teachers" are, since I am secular,) but who's keeping score?
Here they are ''Prior to converting I was required to take a serious conversion class by a Conservative rabbi at the Hillel house at the university where my ex and I were then students. I had to appear in front of a Bet Din, or kind of examining committee of 3 rabbis.'' I wouldn't call that secular teaching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
The servant mentioned in Is. 53 is nowhere in this chapter called the Messiah. The servant might have been a metaphor for the Jewish people, or perhaps a specific leader (for whom there were several Jewish candidates. King Hezekiah is a likely one.) Isaiah was written at a time of devastating wars. Punishment from God was sometimes likened to a father punishing his child-- a harsh but necessary corrective.
How did the wounds of Hezekiah (?) or the suffering of the Jews say in the Holocaust (in agreement with some of the passage) bring healing? Whose wounds have brought more healing to the nations - Is. 53:5 than Jesus'? Jews before Jesus recognized these passages as referring to the Messiah - https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/c...t=lts_fac_pubs as did some of your teachers after Jesus' birth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Some Jews, like some Christians and members of other faiths, have sometimes followed charismatic leaders-- with disastrous results. Generally they ultimately realized that these leaders were not the Messiah.

Again, you cannot take any one sect or event as somehow normative of the whole. The Lubavitchers (Chabad) are a Chassidic sect.
Your claim that the Messiah must rebuid the temple in Jerusalem and ensure a new era of world peace before he can be recognized is clearly mistaken and uninformed, as your people have accepted other people as Christs who also haven't fulfilled these things, some of which are asleep unlike Jesus who said ''For many shall come in my name, saying, ''I am the Anointed'', and they shall lead many astray.''

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
There is a common core for the Jewish denominations, but you're not going to find it with your focus on messianic biblical proof texts. Maybe start by understanding the core of Jewish worship today. For instance, like the Shema (Sh'ma) prayer, which is so central.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-shema/
See Mark 12:28-34.

Last edited by petosiris; 03-28-2020 at 04:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #389  
Unread 03-28-2020, 03:47 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,147
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
The point being, that these are not historical evidence.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Josephus

I fully believe that there was an actual man named Jesus, a Jewish reformer, who preached a stringent code of ethics, and attracted followers. I can also believe that at some point Jesus and his followers believed that he was the Messiah of the end-of-days. From these beliefs they fashioned a powerful new religion called Christianity.

But honestly, Petosiris, that's about it.
What is not historical evidence? Why are you quoting a biased wiki?

''That, indeed, Josephus did say something about Jesus is indicated, above all, by the passage - the authenticity of which has been almost universally acknowledged about James, who is termed (A XX, 200) the brother of ''the aforementioned Christ''.'' - Feldman, L. H., & Hata, G. (Eds.). (1987). Josephus, judaism, and christianity. Brill.

Your belief about Jesus is quite irrational in my opinion, since his brother died preaching Jesus as Christ to the Ninevetes, which he wouldn't have done if he was making it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Every religion can claim martyrdom, for example the martyrs (if we can call them such, rather than murderers) of 9/11 died for their beliefs and the traditions of their forefathers, likewise Jews, Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants all have martyrs who died for very different belief systems.

But the persecution and martyrdom of the apostles of Jesus Christ was different chiefly in this - they were eyewitnesses of what they died for. Let one explain why they would prefer chains, persecutions and death (from both the Gentiles and the Jews) rather than to profit from their supposed lie about the resurrection of our Lord.
I would like to see historical evidence backing your claim.

Last edited by petosiris; 03-28-2020 at 04:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #390  
Unread 03-28-2020, 04:03 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,147
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Here's a Jewish joke I heard, regarding Jesus: "One of our boys made it!"
I don't believe Jesus ever claimed to be God. Neither did 5 or 6 of your Presidents who were Unitarians!

Jesus claimed to be the Lord Messiah and the shaliah of God who is given the divine name (he is representative of God), but not ontologically being the only true God - his Father (John 17:3).

Also it is God <the Father> that made Jesus Lord and Christ.

Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of himself, unless it is something he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. - John 5:19

''Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know - this man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put him to death. But God raised him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for him to be held in its power... Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ - this Jesus whom you crucified.'' - Acts 2

Last edited by petosiris; 03-28-2020 at 08:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #391  
Unread 03-28-2020, 07:17 PM
CapAquaPis's Avatar
CapAquaPis CapAquaPis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: ...in the sidereal astrological system.
Posts: 2,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
The beliefs on "the end of days" are summarized here, if it's any help. Beliefs are multiple and they don't all agree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology

One thing I'd point out, though, is that Judaism does not have a worked-out belief in an afterlife, as does Christianity. The saying is that we don't know anybody who died and then came back to tell us about it. (Jews do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus.)

Another thing, is that in some sense, judgment of observant Jews is an ongoing part of the Jewish calendar. In the days leading up to Yom Kippur, Jews are asked to make up for any transgressions they may have committed against other people. It's a time to make amends.
The near death phenomena or out of body experience, as well the pseudoscientific reincarnation theory are the closest studied sources of millions of people who claimed to had died and came back alive.

Jesus Christ is an important figure in Christianity, discussed in the Quran in Islam but he's only a prophet to them, and studied at least in Judaism who does not view him as the son of God or Messiah they still await.

Christianity, in particular, Roman Catholicism, venerate jesus' mother the Virgin Mary stating she had a baby by the act of God. This was borrowed from Roman and European paganism of a mother Earth goddess deity either had or didn't have s*x.

Yes, many Jews in Judaism either do not believe in a heaven a Christian and Muslim is taught to believe it is finite or real... or have their own personal version and idea of what the afterlife would be like.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CapAquaPis For This Useful Post:
waybread (03-29-2020)
  #392  
Unread 03-28-2020, 09:16 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,863
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Petosiris, re: your post #388, I hope that in these difficult times, people of faith are thinking through the meaning of love for one's neighbour, and helping the vulnerable members of our society. Fundamentally religion is not about a self-righteous insisting upon points of doctrine or proof texts, but in expressing one's compassion for humanity in practical and spiritual ways.

I hope you are surviving your covid-19 seclusion in good health.

I wonder if, in a previous lifetime, you were one of the medieval clergymen involved in disputations with the Jews! These were basically command performances designed to trick the Jewish representative into holding an untenable position, thus "demonstrating" the "superiority" of Christianity. Since Jews who were persuasive debaters risked banishment or endangering their community, the sensible course of action was simply to let the Christian side win. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputation

You obviously made up some thoughts about "my teachers" prior to my mentioning my conversion. I converted to Judaism in 1973 (that's nearly 47 years ago) with a single teacher, the Hillel rabbi on the campus where I was a student. He was a Conservative rabbi, not Orthodox. The Bet Din (beit din) rabbis do not function as teachers, but as a specially convened examining committee, or judges. I can't recall if I even did a Bible study or Jewish living type of course after that. I did study modern Hebrew for a bit, but this was a secular study.

Obviously you're going to stick to your guns on Jesus as the man meant in Isaiah 53. As a Christian, how could you believe otherwise? The Jewish tradition and I personally just do not share your insistence on a literal interpretation of this chapter as presaging Jesus, when it seems so metaphorical and allegorical. If you read Is. 52-54 to get the fuller meaning of this portion of the book, you can see how metaphorical it is.

Isaiah 53 obviously says nothing about the Holocaust, nothing about Jesus, and nothing using the word Messiah; although we can easily infer from it a longing for a Redeemer. It was probably written during the Jewish exile in Babylon. It says nothing about King Hezekiah, although some interpreters think it refers to devastating wars during his reign.

Even if we read Isaiah 53 as expressing beliefs about the longed-for Messiah, Jesus simply doesn't fit Jewish messianic beliefs.

Just for comparison, how many times in Christian history did a group of True Believers think the End Is Nigh only to find out they were mistaken? As with Christianity, Judaism has a history of one group or another periodically claiming the Messiah, but always these beliefs were soon shown to be in error. We still have the Jewish diaspora, no Temple, and warfare. And nothing in Isaiah is going to change that.

To say that Jesus brought "healing to the nations" sounds like a cruel joke to Jewish victims of pogroms, exile, forced conversions, torture, and the Holocaust at the hands of Christians. Then let's not forget the Crusades, the witch-burnings of Europe, and violence between Catholics and Protestants.

I'm not making up Jewish messianic beliefs, Petosiris. Here's another link for you:
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/art...e-about-jesus/

The passages from Mark that you cited exactly indicate the central core of Judaism, which the Jewish Jesus emphasized.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #393  
Unread 03-28-2020, 09:55 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,147
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
To say that Jesus brought "healing to the nations" sounds like a cruel joke to Jewish victims of pogroms, exile, forced conversions, torture, and the Holocaust at the hands of Christians.
Jesus died a cursed death forsaken by God in order to heal the nations. Only when your nation accepts him in the greater tribulation of the last seven years of this age, will the dead rise from their sleep. Not even Jesus knew the day or the hour of his coming, so I don't see how ''True Believers'' would know it.
Reply With Quote
  #394  
Unread 03-28-2020, 09:57 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,863
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Petosiris, re: your post 389.

By historical evidence, I mean evidence as a professional historian would use it, notably one trying to learn the facts more than trying to build a case for one side or another of a contentious issue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_method Historical method actually works a lot like detective work or legal research.

Because in biblical studies were looking at languages no longer spoken, for the most part, we also rely on philologists. Experts in ancient languages learn about the different forms of a given language at different times and locations. Just for example, Josephus wrote in the common Greek of his day and place, yet if a portion of his text in a later edition was written in a form of Latin that only appeared later and in a different part of the Roman empire, we question its authenticity.

The parts of Josephus's super-brief mentions of Jesus that seem authentic say nothing about him as the Messiah. To be "called the Christ" doesn't mean Jesus is the Messiah. Monk on this forum sometimes calls me "Lady Waybread" but that doesn't mean I have an official aristocratic title.

Your logic escapes me about Jesus' brother dying during his ministry to the Ninevites. All kinds of preachers around the globe from many different faiths attest to religions that you would firmly reject.

Then, yet again, I don't take the Bible literally. I think you pick and choose what you take literally and what you don't. Do you believe in talking snakes or plagues of frogs and blood? Do you put a fence around your rooftop? What about those fringes on the corners of your garment? Why haven't we seen pigs infested by demons and jumping off cliffs? Do you own two or more coats? Jesus said to give all but one away to the poor.

If you find that Christianity gives you joy and meaning in your life, and makes you a more ethical loving person, I'm not here to say that Christianity is wrong and you shouldn't profess it. If this is your Christianity, I congratulate you. I am here to suggest that the soul of Christianity does not live in proof texts, but in faith and actions.

I think you'd see any source as biased that did not confirm your Christian beliefs.

Obviously, Jews have been martyred professing their faith-- with the Shema on their lips. There is a Jewish teaching that anything necessary to save a life is permitted. Sometimes one has no choice, however.

Re: your post #390: John 10:30. "I and the Father are one." You could also read the opening lines of John in this light.

I don't know what you make of the trinity.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #395  
Unread 03-28-2020, 10:04 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,863
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Jesus died a cursed death forsaken by God in order to heal the nations. Only when your nation accepts him in the greater tribulation of the last seven years of this age, will the dead rise from their sleep. Not even Jesus knew the day or the hour of his coming, so I don't see how ''True Believers'' would know it.
Thanks Petosiris. I'm not afraid of burning in hell.

Of course, we might ask why the Son of God felt forsaken as the Romans tortured him to death.

I don't know what you think my "nation" is. I happen to be an American-born adoptive Canadian dual citizen, and a religiously inactive Jew by choice. An ultra-Orthodox rabbi probably would not accept my conversion as kosher, incidentally.

I find the idea of the dead rising from their sleep to be the stuff of fictional horror films, not of a pure, loving, and binding faith.

True Believers, whether Christians or Jews, look for signs supposedly set forth in their scriptures. We might call them omens.

I believe that God is love, Petosiris, not arguing bits of doctrine.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #396  
Unread 03-28-2020, 10:10 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,147
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

I never said that Josephus thought Jesus was the Messiah. I don't believe that. I only claimed that Josephus recorded how James, the brother of Jesus, (along with some of Jewish Christians there) died by stoning at the hands of the Jews a few years before the siege of Nineveh (for it followed exactly 40 days from the preaching of Jonah). I also said that they were not ordinary religious martyrs, because they were eyewitnesses of the resurrection, unlike most martyrs who are believers in something they haven't seen.
Reply With Quote
  #397  
Unread 03-28-2020, 10:18 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,147
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Re: your post #390: John 10:30. "I and the Father are one." You could also read the opening lines of John in this light.

I don't know what you make of the trinity.
Quote:
''1. There is no reason to take this verse to mean that Christ was saying that he and the Father make up “one God.” The phrase was a common one, and even today if someone used it, people would know exactly what he meant—he and his father are very much alike. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians about his ministry there, he said that he had planted the seed and Apollos had watered it. Then he said, “he who plants and he who waters are one” (1 Cor. 3:8 – KJV). In the Greek texts, the wording of Paul is the same as that in John 10:30, yet no one claims that Paul and Apollos make up “one being.” Furthermore, the NIV translates 1 Corinthians 3:8 as “he who plants and he who waters have one purpose.” Why translate the phrase as “are one” in one place, but as “have one purpose” in another place? In this case, translating the same phrase in two different ways obscures the clear meaning of Christ’s statement in John 10:30: Christ always did the Father’s will; he and God have “one purpose.”

2. Christ uses the concept of “being one” in other places, and from them one can see that “one purpose” is what is meant. John 11:52 says Jesus was to die to make all God’s children “one.” In John 17:11, 21 and 22, Jesus prayed to God that his followers would be “one” as he and God were “one.” We think it is obvious that Jesus was not praying that all his followers would become one being or “substance” just as he and his Father were one being or “substance.” We believe the meaning is clear: Jesus was praying that all his followers be one in purpose just as he and God were one in purpose, a prayer that has not yet been answered.

3. The context of John 10:30 shows conclusively that Jesus was referring to the fact that he had the same purpose as God did. Jesus was speaking about his ability to keep the “sheep,” the believers, who came to him. He said that no one could take them out of his hand and that no one could take them out of his Father’s hand. Then he said that he and the Father were “one,” i.e., had one purpose, which was to keep and protect the sheep.'' - https://www.biblicalunitarian.com/vi...ing-john-10-30
I would also add in relation to the OP, that the Greek ''one'' there is neuter gender ἕν (implying one purpose) rather than masculine gender εἷς (which would imply one God as in Mark 12:29). Jesus agreed on the Shema with the scribe.

I read the personified ''word'' in John 1 like the personified ''wisdom'' in Sirach 24.

''Wisdom praises herself,
and tells of her glory in the midst of her people.
In the assembly of the Most High she opens her mouth,
and in the presence of his hosts she tells of her glory:
“I came forth from the mouth of the Most High,
and covered the earth like a mist.
I dwelt in the highest heavens,
and my throne was in a pillar of cloud.
Alone I compassed the vault of heaven
and traversed the depths of the abyss.
Over waves of the sea, over all the earth,
and over every people and nation I have held sway.
Among all these I sought a resting place;
in whose territory should I abide?

“Then the Creator of all things gave me a command,
and my Creator chose the place for my tent.
He said, ‘Make your dwelling in Jacob,
and in Israel receive your inheritance.’
Before the ages, in the beginning, he created me,
and for all the ages I shall not cease to be.
In the holy tent I ministered before him,
and so I was established in Zion.
Thus in the beloved city he gave me a resting place,
and in Jerusalem was my domain.
I took root in an honored people,
in the portion of the Lord, his heritage.

“I grew tall like a cedar in Lebanon,
and like a cypress on the heights of Hermon.
I grew tall like a palm tree in En-gedi,
and like rosebushes in Jericho;
like a fair olive tree in the field,
and like a plane tree beside water I grew tall.
Like cassia and camel’s thorn I gave forth perfume,
and like choice myrrh I spread my fragrance,
like galbanum, onycha, and stacte,
and like the odor of incense in the tent.
Like a terebinth I spread out my branches,
and my branches are glorious and graceful.
Like the vine I bud forth delights,
and my blossoms become glorious and abundant fruit.

“Come to me, you who desire me,
and eat your fill of my fruits.
For the memory of me is sweeter than honey,
and the possession of me sweeter than the honeycomb.
Those who eat of me will hunger for more,
and those who drink of me will thirst for more.
Whoever obeys me will not be put to shame,
and those who work with me will not sin.”

All this is the book of the covenant of the Most High God,
the law that Moses commanded us
as an inheritance for the congregations of Jacob.
It overflows, like the Pishon, with wisdom,
and like the Tigris at the time of the first fruits.
It runs over, like the Euphrates, with understanding,
and like the Jordan at harvest time.
It pours forth instruction like the Nile,
like the Gihon at the time of vintage.
The first man did not know wisdom fully,
nor will the last one fathom her.
For her thoughts are more abundant than the sea,
and her counsel deeper than the great abyss.'' - NRSV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...4&version=NRSV

The wisdom isn't a second person nor did God literally ''incarnate'' or ''inbooked'' in the Torah. It is poetic metaphor like wisdom in the book of Proverbs. Jesus is in the same sense the word and wisdom of God.

Last edited by petosiris; 03-28-2020 at 10:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #398  
Unread 03-28-2020, 10:23 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,147
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

I don't see Rabbinic kosher conversion in the book of Ruth. So I believe you are a Biblical Jew.
Reply With Quote
  #399  
Unread 03-28-2020, 11:09 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,147
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Then, yet again, I don't take the Bible literally. I think you pick and choose what you take literally and what you don't. Do you believe in talking snakes or plagues of frogs and blood? Do you put a fence around your rooftop? What about those fringes on the corners of your garment? Why haven't we seen pigs infested by demons and jumping off cliffs? Do you own two or more coats? Jesus said to give all but one away to the poor.

If you find that Christianity gives you joy and meaning in your life, and makes you a more ethical loving person, I'm not here to say that Christianity is wrong and you shouldn't profess it. If this is your Christianity, I congratulate you. I am here to suggest that the soul of Christianity does not live in proof texts, but in faith and actions.
If the Bible is not source of truth, then which faith and works I should have? One can come up with anything.
Reply With Quote
  #400  
Unread 03-28-2020, 11:26 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,147
Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapAquaPis View Post
Christianity, in particular, Roman Catholicism, venerate jesus' mother the Virgin Mary stating she had a baby by the act of God. This was borrowed from Roman and European paganism of a mother Earth goddess deity either had or didn't have s*x.
No one outside Roman Catholicism, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches ''venerates'' Mary. God said he would beget the Messiah in Psalm 2 of the Hebrew Scriptures. It has nothing to do with s*x, as God unlike other gods is invisible, incorporeal and uncreated spirit. He can't do something that is contrary to his perfect nature.

Last edited by petosiris; 03-28-2020 at 11:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
existence, gender, human

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 10:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ゥ 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.