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  #326  
Unread 03-25-2020, 10:54 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

David:
Fraud or Saint?
Quote:
http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stg...ishnamurti.asp Krishnamurti was a brilliant thinker who declined not just sainthood, but being designated the messiah (of all things!) by Rosecutions. He relied on logic, and encouraged people to think for themselves. He warned against ritualistic religious practices in an effort to achieve enlightenment.

Here's one: The farmer prays for rain, and the brick-maker prays for sun. But, God doesn't play favorites.
Did you ever study K's chart in accordance with the insider information about David Bohm? OR his natal chart with light of what his lover's daughter said about him(i.e. K) , her mother Rosalind and his bff Rosalind's husband. Seems she maintains and others verified it, that Rosalind had an abortion through becoming pregnant with "K"'s child, per his request; and of course is counter being celibate he celebrated publicly.


For many, including David Bohm, it amounted to hypocrisy.



Rajagopal Sloss stated the following regarding the work:
This is not only the story of one person. It is the story of the relationships of J. Krishnamurti and people closely involved with him, especially Rosalind Williams Rajagopal and D. Rajagopal, my mother and father, and of the consequences of this involvement on their lives. Recently there have been biographies and a biographical film on Krishnamurti that have left areas, and a large span of years, in mysterious darkness. It is not in the interest of historical integrity, especially where such a personality is concerned, that there be these areas of obscurity.
— Lives in the Shadow with J. Krishnamurti, Preface


Here is his natal chart (sorry to disappoint anyone who believed in him or still does, I'm sure he was valuable for many) starting with Annie Besant (Theosophist and herself an Astrologer) who brought him and his brother over from India as children to England.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Besant


J. Krishnamurti's natal chart (note the 5th house) I realize too that Yogananda also had a difficult chart to overcome according to him and his guru, but from everything I've read, he managed to do so...and didn't represent anything different in private then what you saw in public.


https://www.astro.com/astro-databank...namurti,_Jiddu


https://www.astro.com/astro-databank...a,_Paramahansa


Ref: Yogananda:

Quote:

A lifelong celibate and mystic, Yogananda wrote that he burned the prophecies about his life written down by the family's astrologer because he did not want to be controlled by its prediction of marrying three times. Though his family pressed him to marry, his determination to follow the spiritual path was resolute.


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  #327  
Unread 03-25-2020, 11:00 PM
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Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by leomoon View Post
David:
Fraud or Saint?



Did you ever study K's chart in accordance with the insider information about David Bohm? OR his natal chart with light of what his lover's daughter said about him(i.e. K) , her mother Rosalind and his bff Rosalind's husband. Seems she maintains and others verified it, that Rosalind had an abortion through becoming pregnant with "K"'s child, per his request; and of course is counter being celibate he celebrated publicly.


For many, including David Bohm, it amounted to hypocrisy.



Rajagopal Sloss stated the following regarding the work:
This is not only the story of one person. It is the story of the relationships of J. Krishnamurti and people closely involved with him, especially Rosalind Williams Rajagopal and D. Rajagopal, my mother and father, and of the consequences of this involvement on their lives. Recently there have been biographies and a biographical film on Krishnamurti that have left areas, and a large span of years, in mysterious darkness. It is not in the interest of historical integrity, especially where such a personality is concerned, that there be these areas of obscurity.
— Lives in the Shadow with J. Krishnamurti, Preface
Unfortunately, intelligence doesn't indicate a high standard of morality!
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  #328  
Unread 03-25-2020, 11:13 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Sorry, I posted this piece later, so you may not have seen it regarding:


https://www.astro.com/astro-databank...a,_Paramahansa


Ref: Yogananda:

Quote:

A lifelong celibate and mystic, Yogananda wrote that he burned the prophecies about his life written down by the family's astrologer because he did not want to be controlled by its prediction of marrying three times. Though his family pressed him to marry, his determination to follow the spiritual path was resolute.



Personally, after listening to his voice (see YouTube videos of him in the early days), marrying people, etc- I was shocked to hear the squeakiness of the voice and the same with the voice of Edgar Cayce in trance. SHOCKED!!! We expect one thing and are surprised when it's different from the "vision" we hold of a person. A 3rd squeaky voice come to think of it was Jane Robert's in trance as "Seth".

EXAMPLE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5Scnp1FJVU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6RuJ65DvJ0&t=2487s

Here is what his Guru,
His guru, Sri Yukteshwar Giri, was a Taurus Sun (10 May 1855 - 9 March 1936).

As a good Capricorn Sun, Yogananda was obedient and respectful of his superior. Many of his ideas were an influence of his revolutionary and scientific guru:

Quote:

At their very first meeting, and on many occasions thereafter, Sri Yukteswar told the young disciple that he had been chosen as the one to disseminate the ancient science of Kriya Yoga in America and worldwide.

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  #329  
Unread 03-26-2020, 02:29 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Wasn't Jesus Jewish? If so, his faithful are Jewish also.
Why don't you ask Christians about this?

Being provocative simply for its own sake does not make your point. It just suggests a lack of awareness of religion today.

Pointing to a mythical common ancestor does not mean these faiths recognize one another as belonging to them today.
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  #330  
Unread 03-26-2020, 02:30 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
To say that Jesus and his apostles were Jews, that is offensive to Satan.
That's not what either David or I are saying.

Plus, Satan is not real.
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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #331  
Unread 03-26-2020, 02:33 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely separate me from His people.” - Is. 56

Really, waybread? Are you saying He will surely separate us from your people?
I have no idea what you thought I meant-- or what you mean.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #332  
Unread 03-26-2020, 02:49 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by leomoon View Post
No, he was from the land of Ur:

https://www.jesus-resurrection.info/abraham-jew.html
Abraham himself was not Jewish (or Israelite) but, it would seem, Chaldean:


"And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there."
Right. Abraham said, "My father was a wandering Aramean..." Deut. 26:10. Aram is in present-day Syria. These people were probably nomdadic pastoralists who migrated into Canaan.

The biblical partriarchs of Judaism were Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac. Jacob's other name was Israel.

The word Judaism stems from Jacob's grandson Judah, head of one of the 12 tribes. Most of them became lost to history.


Of course, archaeology tells a different story.
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  #333  
Unread 03-26-2020, 02:59 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by leomoon View Post
Ref:
My understanding is it was Aramaic , the language of Jesus and his parents and most of his friends (disciples)



From Aramaic to Greek, to Latin ...
(See Gnostic Gospels online)



The Christian writers of the first period mention the existence of the Gospel called "Logia", which means words, written in Hebrew-Aramaic. In addition, some Western scientists who started to research the Gospels beginning from the eighteenth century state that there was one single Gospel before the current four Gospels emerged and that the current Gospels were written based on that Gospel.
Lessing, one of those researchers, stated in the thesis he put forward at the end of the eighteenth century that there was an original Gospel before the four Gospels, that its language was Aramaic and that Matthew, Mark and Luke made use of it when they wrote their Gospels.

Aramaic is probably what they spoke, but the earliest known written versions of the NT are in Greek, which was widely spoken in the ancient world. Apparently this is because many of the early converts spoke Greek, whether or not they knew Aramaic or liturgical Hebrew.
https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/tool...e-of-the-bible
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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #334  
Unread 03-26-2020, 03:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Why don't you ask Christians about this?

Being provocative simply for its own sake does not make your point. It just suggests a lack of awareness of religion today.

Pointing to a mythical common ancestor does not mean these faiths recognize one another as belonging to them today.
I thought Christians acknowledged Judaic origins, and Muslims acknowledge Judeo-Christian origins. Does the recognition of a common Abrahamic patriarchal monotheistic sky god ancestry work only in reverse, and not forward?
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Unread 03-26-2020, 03:57 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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I thought Christians acknowledged Judaic origins, and Muslims acknowledge Judeo-Christian origins. Does the recognition of a common Abrahamic patriarchal monotheistic sky god ancestry work only in reverse, and not forward?
My point was that Jews do not consider Christians to be Jewish. Christians do not consider themselves to be Jewish. The 3 monotheistic religions claim a common origin but significant differences in what it takes to be a member.

For starters, to be a Christian, you have to be baptized. To be Jewish, you have to have either a Jewish mother or else you have to undergo a prescribed course of study and conversion ritual.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #336  
Unread 03-26-2020, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
My point was that Jews do not consider Christians to be Jewish. Christians do not consider themselves to be Jewish. The 3 monotheistic religions claim a common origin but significant differences in what it takes to be a member.

For starters, to be a Christian, you have to be baptized. To be Jewish, you have to have either a Jewish mother or else you have to undergo a prescribed course of study and conversion ritual.
Oh that’s true enough for participants. For an outsider to all three like David his point was also true. Minus maybe the theological rather than psychological or political attribution of the mutual discord (purely imo).
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Unread 03-26-2020, 03:47 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
My point was that Jews do not consider Christians to be Jewish. Christians do not consider themselves to be Jewish. The 3 monotheistic religions claim a common origin but significant differences in what it takes to be a member.

For starters, to be a Christian, you have to be baptized. To be Jewish, you have to have either a Jewish mother or else you have to undergo a prescribed course of study and conversion ritual.
Conversion ritual by baptism.
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  #338  
Unread 03-26-2020, 06:10 PM
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Was Jesus a "scapegoat" in the OT sense?
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  #339  
Unread 03-26-2020, 06:19 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Was Jesus a "scapegoat" in the OT sense?
''All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.'' - Is. 53:6

Both the ''scapegoat'' (and the goat that was slain and sprinkled in the Temple made without hands - in heaven) and the Passover lamb are types of the sacrifice of Jesus.
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  #340  
Unread 03-26-2020, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
''All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.'' - Is. 53:6

Both the ''scapegoat'' (and the goat that was slain and sprinkled in the Temple made without hands - in heaven) and the Passover lamb are types of the sacrifice of Jesus.
The Hebrew, village scapegoat, was believed to carry away the sins of the village.
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  #341  
Unread 03-26-2020, 06:39 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
The Hebrew, village scapegoat, was believed to carry away the sins of the village.

So, yes, he was definitely the scapegoat for all of us. ALL meaning, mankind. (imo) Souls collectively speaking, that have lost their way. But most humans are rather thick headed, then and now...Sadly.





scapegoat

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scapegoat

1 : a goat upon whose head are symbolically placed the sins of the people after which he is sent into the wilderness in the biblical ceremony for Yom Kippur

2a : one that bears the blame for others
b : one that is the object of irrational hostility





(in the Bible) a goat sent into the wilderness after the Jewish chief priest had symbolically laid the sins of the people upon it (Lev. 16).

Personally, (since I have been too but not to lose my life over), the whole concept ***** earthworms imo!
I'd love to have his Parans to check but alas, I only have my own to share:




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  #342  
Unread 03-26-2020, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leomoon View Post
So, yes, he was definitely the scapegoat for all of us. ALL meaning, mankind. (imo) Souls collectively speaking, that have lost their way. But most humans are rather thick headed, then and now...Sadly.





scapegoat

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scapegoat

1 : a goat upon whose head are symbolically placed the sins of the people after which he is sent into the wilderness in the biblical ceremony for Yom Kippur

2a : one that bears the blame for others
b : one that is the object of irrational hostility





(in the Bible) a goat sent into the wilderness after the Jewish chief priest had symbolically laid the sins of the people upon it (Lev. 16).

Personally, (since I have been too but not to lose my life over), the whole concept ***** earthworms imo!
I'd love to have his Parans to check but alas, I only have my own to share:



Christianity arose as the beginning of the "Global Village" concept. It has that "join up or else you're doomed" caveat , though, even regarding the different denominations.

Last edited by david starling; 03-26-2020 at 07:36 PM.
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  #343  
Unread 03-26-2020, 07:56 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

"...And the Greatest of these is love" (Paul)




https://www.cbsnews.com/news/italian...pe-berardelli/


Jesus said "Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends" John 15


In the priest's case, it was a relative stranger yet younger then he who needed the ventilator to live.


This man walked the talk. Quite an inspiration to many.


David Starling:
Quote:

Ref: Christianity arose as the beginning of the "Global Village" concept. It has that "join up or else you're doomed" caveat , though, even regarding the different denominations.
So true, something we all forget if we don't study the history of that era of Roman/Emperor Rule.
A lady I didn't really know asked me to do her chart a few times, She was in a retirement home and worried greatly, she'd outlive her money . I saw she'd live for another decade at least (the best I could do), and she was 80.


She sent me a lovely gift, saying I reminded her of this movie....(I never rec'd such a sentiment in my life before)
BUT I loved the movie. It did keep close to the history of the times - The Jews, the Romans, the Greeks, and the "new" church coming into existence in their lives.


She was sacrificed for the Church



A wonderful Video:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agora_(film)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia

Last edited by leomoon; 03-26-2020 at 08:43 PM. Reason: added link
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Unread 03-26-2020, 08:57 PM
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Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by leomoon View Post
"...And the Greatest of these is love" (Paul)




https://www.cbsnews.com/news/italian...pe-berardelli/


Jesus said "Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends" John 15


In the priest's case, it was a relative stranger yet younger then he who needed the ventilator to live.


This man walked the talk. Quite an inspiration to many.


David Starling:


So true, something we all forget if we don't study the history of that era of Roman/Emperor Rule.
A lady I didn't really know asked me to do her chart a few times, She was in a retirement home and worried greatly, she'd outlive her money . I saw she'd live for another decade at least (the best I could do), and she was 80.


She sent me a lovely gift, saying I reminded her of this movie....(I never rec'd such a sentiment in my life before)
BUT I loved the movie. It did keep close to the history of the times - The Jews, the Romans, the Greeks, and the "new" church coming into existence in their lives.


She was sacrificed for the Church



A wonderful Video:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agora_(film)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia
How was she "sacrificed for the Church"?
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Unread 03-26-2020, 09:03 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Part of the Plot (based on 'historical facts" and fiction (creative license)
so I think anyone who is into Astrology (astronomy then) religion and , history would love this movie. The DVD is in English -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agora_(film)


Amazon Prime members:

https://www.amazon.com/Agora-Rachel-Weisz/dp/B0047VLFS4


everybody else:
https://www.amazon.com/Agora-DVD-Rac.../dp/B003EYVXXW


Quote:
Orestes, now converted to Christianity, is prefect of Alexandria. Hypatia continues to investigate the motions of the Sun, the Moon, the five known "wanderers" (planets), and the stars. Some Christians ridicule the thinking that the Earth is a sphere by arguing that people far from the top would fall off the Earth. When they ask Davus what his opinion is, he avoids conflict by saying that only God knows these things.


Hypatia also investigates the heliocentric model of the solar system proposed by Aristarchus of Samos by having an object dropped from the mast of a moving ship which demonstrates that a possible motion of the Earth would not affect the motion, relative to Earth, of a falling object on Earth. However, due to religious objections against heliocentrism, the Christians have now forbidden Hypatia to teach at the school. The Christians and the Jews come into violent conflict.
Quote:
The leader of the Christians, Cyril, views Hypatia as having too much influence over Orestes and stages a public ceremony intended to force Orestes to subjugate her. Hypatia's former pupil, Synesius, now the Bishop of Cyrene, comes to her rescue as a religious authority counterweight but says he cannot help her unless she accepts Christianity; she refuses.
Hypatia theorizes that the Earth orbits around the Sun in an elliptic orbit, not a circular orbit, with the Sun at one of the foci. Cyril convinces a mob of Christians that Hypatia is a witch, and they vow to kill her.
IF anyone is interested, you can always hover over the highlighted names on the bottom (scroll down on the Wiki link ) and see WHO these elites in the new Religion were back then, 2,000 years ago:


for example:
Synesius (/sɪˈniːsiəs/; Greek: Συνέσιος; c. 373 – c. 414), a Greek bishop of Ptolemais in ancient Libya, a part of the Western Pentapolis of Cyrenaica after 410, was born of wealthy parents at Balagrae (now Bayda, Libya) near Cyrene between 370 and 375
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesius

and all the other historical people....you can see just by hovering over their individual names on the Wiki link -


The AGORA is a name used in Greece for the meeting place
Hypatia, (a historical woman - pagan whose father was a very respected Philosopher & Mathematician) was also a Teacher of Astronomy & Mathematics and tried to dispel superstitions her students held.



Alexandria Egypt was a wonderful mixture for years of native Egyptians, Temples to them; as well as the world's most famous Library as you know for all the scrolls deemed important enough amongst the world's scholars.

The Alexandria library - ( (spoiler alert): shown being burned in the movie) was likely the result of all these various cultures who had alternate beliefs systems and the newly (400 A.D.?? ) consecrated Bishops and others making life a hell on earth for these Mathematicians, Philosophers etc.


They needed to get rid of the thinking ones I suppose to make way for ONE rule only. They did it (as in later generations, via force) \
Perhaps Waybread knows more then I about this entire historical era. I just saw the movie, for pete's sake, and am not the brightest bulb in the socket, being self-educated






Last edited by leomoon; 03-26-2020 at 10:33 PM.
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Ref:
Quote:
How was she "sacrificed for the Church"?
The REALLY bad guy in this movie, at the end (spoiler alert) is "Saint" Cyril:
Quote:

Cyril is well known for his dispute with Nestorius and his supporter Patriarch John of Antioch, whom Cyril excluded from the Council of Ephesus for arriving late. He is also known for his expulsion of Novatians and Jews from Alexandria and for inflaming tensions that led to the murder of the Hellenistic philosopher Hypatia by a Christian mob.


Historians disagree over the extent of his responsibility in this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria


In previous post you will recall this name: "The Caesareum" ...


Converted to a Christian church in the late 4th century, the Caesareum was the headquarters of Cyril of Alexandria, the Patriarch of Alexandria from 412 to 444.
The philosopher and mathematician Hypatia was murdered at the Caesareum by a Christian mob in 415; they stripped her naked and tore her to pieces




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesareum_of_Alexandria


Here are a few modern pics of Alexandria's Library rooftop Planetarium (see the Mediterranean in the distance)






And: Demetrius of Phalerum being remembered from that time period:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrius_of_Phalerum



I hope you all enjoy my efforts to share some of my personal experiences and that its not considered an intrusion ... Personally, I LOVE this subject! And then tend to go overboard ...
...from Wiki link: - he argues that Demetrius later played a big role in the foundation of the Library of Alexandria.


Here is where they took creative license in the movie I suppose, (the timing?)
Between 270 and 275 AD, the city of Alexandria saw a rebellion and an imperial counterattack that probably destroyed whatever remained of the Library, if it still existed at that time. The daughter library of the Serapeum may have survived after the main Library's destruction. The Serapeum was vandalized and demolished in 391 AD under a decree issued by Coptic Christian Pope Theophilus of Alexandria,

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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Oh that’s true enough for participants. For an outsider to all three like David his point was also true. Minus maybe the theological rather than psychological or political attribution of the mutual discord (purely imo).
I'd leave it to members and clergy of their respective faiths to define themselves.

A common mythological or legendary ancestor is not the same as being the same. Just because we had the same parents doesn't make me my brother or sister.
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Conversion ritual by baptism.
It's not like the Christian baptism. There is a ritual bath called a mikveh (or mikvah.) Christian Baptism was probably a spin-off. One makes the person a Jew (or reinforces his/her Jewishness.) The other makes the person a Christian.

In order for it to be kosher, the rules for making a mikveh are very strict.

Christians are usually baptized in infancy. The mikveh is in frequent use by Orthodox Jewish adults.
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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Was Jesus a "scapegoat" in the OT sense?
Since the OT makes no mention of Jesus, this is an odd question. The scapegoat of ancient Judaism was an actual goat, not a human being or a deity. Then it was sent out into the wilderness, not crucified, buried and resurrected. (Leviticus 16:21-22.)

Of course, scapegoat has a metaphorical meaning applied to humans, notably those blamed for the sins of other people.

Only Christians believe that Jesus died to atone for the sins of the many.

Jews do not believe in Jesus (other than as an itinerant rabbi,) but also-- in Judaism each person has to atone for his/her own sins, individually. Prior to Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, Jews are asked to make up and make due to any people they may have harmed. On Yom Kippur, Jews believe they can be released from unfulfilled promises made to God. This is the Kol Nidre prayer, the most solemn moment in the Jewish calendar.

Of course, the idea that Jesus died for their sins is not part of Buddhism, Islam, Taosim, Hinduism, and so on.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Tevilah means immersion. Baptism means immersion. The water used is another topic. Most Christians don't follow the commandments of Jesus and the apostles.
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