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  #301  
Unread 03-25-2020, 03:43 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
David, not so. Christianity hinges on a belief in the divinity of Jesus. Jews do not accept this. Some will go so far as to consider Jesus to have been a wise teacher, but the term New Testament isn't operational in Judaism. There's just the Jewish Bible. To Orthodox Jews, the Talmud (biblical commentary) is also scriptural.

If you think of all of the pogroms, expulsions, and severe limits on Jews enacted by Christians, the idea the Christians are actually Jews is a cruel joke. (I don't define Nazi Germany as Christian.)

What Christians have claimed is that they are now the Chosen People, a status the Jews forfeited when they failed to accept Jesus as the messiah.

Then Jewish descent is reckoned through the mother. If your mother wasn't Jewish, neither are you unless you undergo a conversion process. To retain his Jewish status, a male baby must be ritually circumcised.

There are some interesting Jewish genetics, as well.
It's still a sect of Judaism. Even uses the Hebrew scripture. Sunnis and Shias are sects of Islam, even though they have extremely different points of view on some matters that are very important to them. Important enough to kill each other over them.


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  #302  
Unread 03-25-2020, 04:07 AM
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Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Three major Judean sects: Rabbinical, which doesn't believe the Messiah has come yet, but eventually will; Roman Catholic, which believes the Messiah already came once, but has to come again to complete God's plan for humanity; and Protestant, which agrees with the Catholics on most things, but doesn't want anything to do with a Pope. The Thirty Years' War was originally between two of the sects, Catholics and Protestants. Both of these Judean sects have persecuted the oldest sect, the Rabbinical.
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  #303  
Unread 03-25-2020, 04:49 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Leomoon, a good call on the very early history of Christianity, re: the gnostics, Elaine Pagels, and Constantin.

There is a problem in the history of Christianity called presentism, whereby the doctrines of the present are projected upon a past that was actually a lot more diverse than orthodox accounts with to acknowledge. The parts of the past that don't lead directly up to present-day beliefs get pruned away.

The Gnostics had an important following in early Christianity but it got stamped out by what became the early Catholic church in Rome.

You are also correct that normative Judaism was by no means the only influence on early Christianity. The earliest known versions of the NT are in Greek, not Hebrew. Crucifixion was a Roman method of execution, not a Jewish one.

The Jewish religion today is primarily an outgrowth of the Pharisee (rabbinical) tradition with a few acknowledgements to Sadducee (priestly) traditions. In a Saturday morning worship service, a man of priestly (Cohen) ancestry will be first called up to the Torah, followed by a man of Levite ancestry. Observant Jewish men know if they have this background.

One thing I'd like to stress to non-Jews is that there is a surprising amount of joy in Jewish observance. I don't practice Judaism now, but think of an entire congregation dancing the horah at a Jewish wedding or bat mitzvah, eating a meal with friends and family in a sukkah during the holiday of Sukkot, or dancing with Torah scrolls during the festival of Simchat Torah.

Judaism has beautiful liturgical songs, many of them sung at home surrounding the sabbath. Here is one from the service at the beginning of the Sabbath https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=913jZFL1bdE and one at the conclusion of the sabbath on Saturday evening. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDn1zOqPVx4

Let's not forget the varied forms of worship-- they're not all about doctrine, rules, and regulations.
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  #304  
Unread 03-25-2020, 04:50 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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It's still a sect of Judaism. Even uses the Hebrew scripture. Sunnis and Shias are sects of Islam, even though they have extremely different points of view on some matters that are very important to them. Important enough to kill each other over them.
David, this is not only incorrect, but actually offensive to many of the faithful.
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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Unread 03-25-2020, 07:26 AM
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Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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David, this is not only incorrect, but actually offensive to many of the faithful.
Wasn't Jesus Jewish? If so, his faithful are Jewish also.
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Unread 03-25-2020, 07:31 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Wait....who are the faithful who might find this wider definition of "Jewish" offensive?
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Unread 03-25-2020, 09:35 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Apparently, Muhammedans also accept the O.T. as originally being the word of God! ANOTHER "Jewish" sect!

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Unread 03-25-2020, 09:37 AM
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"Abrahamic" is used to label all three--Rabinical, Christian, and Moslem.
That doesn't seem to offend anyone.

Was Abraham "Jewish"?

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  #309  
Unread 03-25-2020, 10:42 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

To say that Jesus and his apostles were Jews, that is offensive to Satan.
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  #310  
Unread 03-25-2020, 10:50 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Wasn't Jesus Jewish? If so, his faithful are Jewish also.
Uncircumcised believers in Jesus are not Jews in the flesh, they are Gentiles grafted in.

''I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew...

I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
“This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.'' - Romans 11 NASB - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...1&version=NASB

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What Christians have claimed is that they are now the Chosen People, a status the Jews forfeited when they failed to accept Jesus as the messiah.
Paul doesn't seem to claim that.

Last edited by petosiris; 03-25-2020 at 11:36 AM.
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  #311  
Unread 03-25-2020, 10:53 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Apparently, Muhammedans also accept the O.T. as originally being the word of God! ANOTHER "Jewish" sect!
They don't accept either the OT or the NT. They have a baseless, unhistorical and unverifiable claim that they were distorted and altered beyond recognition (Tahrif).
Muslims also claim that Jesus never died, the one historical fact all historians accept. Isn't that interesting?

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Unread 03-25-2020, 11:42 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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David, this is not only incorrect, but actually offensive to many of the faithful.
Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely separate me from His people.” - Is. 56

Really, waybread? Are you saying He will surely separate us from your people?
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  #313  
Unread 03-25-2020, 05:16 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Wait....who are the faithful who might find this wider definition of "Jewish" offensive?

Perhaps many such as myself. Not totally offensive to me personally, but I don't agree at all with this premise stated. There are Coptic Christians the 1=2% minority peoples in Egypt for example, who were actually the first Christians.



They are also the same people who hold access to the tremendous scroll find at Nag Hammadi in the 40s. They have a museum in what is called "Coptic Cairo" as well as churches and a thriving community there and elsewhere in the country.



"Coptic Christians are the Christians that are living in Egypt. They came into existence after the ascension of Jesus Christ at around 42 CE. Saint Mark who was the writer of the gospel of Mark first introduced Christianity in Egypt"
(Actually, they are the original modern Egyptians in that country.)
.History Of The Coptic Christians - WorldAtlas.com


www.worldatlas.com/articles/history-of-the-coptic-christians.html

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  #314  
Unread 03-25-2020, 05:21 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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"Abrahamic" is used to label all three--Rabinical, Christian, and Moslem.
That doesn't seem to offend anyone.

Was Abraham "Jewish"?



No, he was from the land of Ur:

https://www.jesus-resurrection.info/abraham-jew.html
Abraham himself was not Jewish (or Israelite) but, it would seem, Chaldean:


"And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there."
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  #315  
Unread 03-25-2020, 05:29 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Quote:
The earliest known versions of the NT are in Greek, not Hebrew.
My understanding is it was Aramaic , the language of Jesus and his parents and most of his friends (disciples)



From Aramaic to Greek, to Latin ...
(See Gnostic Gospels online)



The Christian writers of the first period mention the existence of the Gospel called "Logia", which means words, written in Hebrew-Aramaic. In addition, some Western scientists who started to research the Gospels beginning from the eighteenth century state that there was one single Gospel before the current four Gospels emerged and that the current Gospels were written based on that Gospel.
Lessing, one of those researchers, stated in the thesis he put forward at the end of the eighteenth century that there was an original Gospel before the four Gospels, that its language was Aramaic and that Matthew, Mark and Luke made use of it when they wrote their Gospels.
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Unread 03-25-2020, 05:39 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by leomoon View Post
Ref:
My understanding is it was Aramaic , the language of Jesus and his parents and most of his friends (disciples)



From Aramaic to Greek, to Latin ...
(See Gnostic Gospels online)



The Christian writers of the first period mention the existence of the Gospel called "Logia", which means words, written in Hebrew-Aramaic. In addition, some Western scientists who started to research the Gospels beginning from the eighteenth century state that there was one single Gospel before the current four Gospels emerged and that the current Gospels were written based on that Gospel.
Lessing, one of those researchers, stated in the thesis he put forward at the end of the eighteenth century that there was an original Gospel before the four Gospels, that its language was Aramaic and that Matthew, Mark and Luke made use of it when they wrote their Gospels.
The Aramaic word for God is "Aloho", which is a version of "Elohim" in Hebrew, the language closest to Aramaic.
Sounds a lot like the Hawaiian word for both hello and goodbye, "Aloha"! Perfect for the last word Jesus is said to have spoken to the multitudes.

Like "Shalom" in Hebrew, Hawaiian "Aloha" means both hello and goodbye, with the true, underlying meaning, "peace and love".

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  #317  
Unread 03-25-2020, 06:29 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac was the father of Jacob also called Israel, and Jacob was the father of Judah and his brothers.
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Unread 03-25-2020, 06:37 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

FYI our source Irenaeus who mentions these oral traditions of Papias didn't include gnostic writings among them, actually he wrote a book against them - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103.htm - See 5.33 for more information on Papias. The claim of Aramaic and Hebrew originals of NT Gospels is quite controversial and disputed though. Some verses in the Greek make more sense when translated into Hebrew, like the Hebraic idiom in Matthew 6:22-23, but that doesn't prove that the original was Hebrew, it proves that Jesus didn't preach in Greek most of the time, which is already a given. There are also Hebrew puns in the Gospel of Matthew, but I am thinking the same way, the oral sayings were written in Greek so that the gospel may reach the entire world through the common language at the time. Large part of Daniel was also written in Aramaic, because this language was more familiar to many Jews after the exile. In truth their writings don't seem to bear any homage to Hellenism compared to someone like Philo.

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  #319  
Unread 03-25-2020, 06:48 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Perhaps many such as myself. Not totally offensive to me personally, but I don't agree at all with this premise stated. There are Coptic Christians the 1=2% minority peoples in Egypt for example, who were actually the first Christians.



They are also the same people who hold access to the tremendous scroll find at Nag Hammadi in the 40s. They have a museum in what is called "Coptic Cairo" as well as churches and a thriving community there and elsewhere in the country.



"Coptic Christians are the Christians that are living in Egypt. They came into existence after the ascension of Jesus Christ at around 42 CE. Saint Mark who was the writer of the gospel of Mark first introduced Christianity in Egypt"
(Actually, they are the original modern Egyptians in that country.)
.History Of The Coptic Christians - WorldAtlas.com


www.worldatlas.com/articles/history-of-the-coptic-christians.html
How can Copts be the first Christians? Have you read the book of Acts which records the first preaching of the apostles to the Jews? And Jesus initially forbade the apostles to go to Gentile and Samaritan towns during his ministry - Matthew 10:5.
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  #320  
Unread 03-25-2020, 07:30 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Not everyone follows Ireaeus or his opinions. I know I don't...


The purpose of "Against Heresies" was to refute the teachings of various Gnostic groups; apparently, several Greek merchants had begun an oratorial campaign in Irenaeus' bishopric, teaching that the material world was the accidental creation of an evil god, from which we are to escape by the pursuit of gnosis. Irenaeus argued that the true gnosis is in fact knowledge of Christ, which redeems rather than escapes from bodily existence.


https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/bey...els/1102391918






Until the discovery of the Library of Nag Hammadi in 1945, Against Heresies was the best-surviving description of Gnosticism. Some religious scholars have argued the findings at Nag Hammadi have shown Irenaeus' description of Gnosticism to be inaccurate and polemic in nature (See Elaine Pagels "Beyond Belief") who refutes him



note: Great title btw, "Beyond Belief"


Elaine Pagels, one of the world's most important writers and thinkers on religion and history, and winner of the National Book Award for her groundbreaking work "The Gnostic Gospels," now reflects on what matters most about spiritual and religious exploration in the twenty-first century. This bold new book explores how Christianity began by tracing its earliest texts, including the secret Gospel of Thomas, rediscovered in Egypt in 1945.




from an Introduction to Beyond Belief:



When her infant son was diagnosed with fatal pulmonary hypertension, Elaine Pagels's spiritual and intellectual quest took on a new urgency, leading her to explore historical and archeological sources and to investigate what Jesus and his teachings meant to his followers before the invention of doctrine-and before the invention of Christianity as we know it.

The astonishing discovery of the Gospel of Thomas, along with more than fifty other early Christian texts unknown since antiquity, offers startling clues. Pagels compares such sources as Thomas's gospel with the canonic texts to show how Christian leaders chose to include some gospels and exclude others from the collection we have come to know as the New Testament. To stabilize the emerging Christian church in times of devastating persecution, the church fathers constructed the canon, creed, and hierarchy-and, in the process, suppressed many of its spiritual resources. Drawing on new scholarship-her own, and that of an international group of scholars-that has come to light since the publication in 1979 of The Gnostic Gospels, Pagels shows that what matters about Christianity involves much more than any one set of beliefs.



Traditions embodied in Judaism and Christianity can powerfully affect us in heart, mind, and spirit, inspire visions of a new society based on practicing justice and love, even heal and transform us. Provocative, beautifully written, and moving

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Unread 03-25-2020, 07:37 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Wait....who are the faithful who might find this wider definition of "Jewish" offensive?

When I was in my 20's and first met my husband at age 24, I took GREAT offense at his joke, "Does the Pope wear a beanie?" when he'd question one's not believing something or other. In otherwords, its suppose to mean "Yes"..


Thank god, he helped me evolve and see the clouds of brainwashing that the othodoxy of the Church created over my life.


note: It still took a few years for me to not be insulted by "does the pope wear a beanie" question.
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Unread 03-25-2020, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by leomoon View Post
When I was in my 20's and first met my husband at age 24, I took GREAT offense at his joke, "Does the Pope wear a beanie?" when he'd question one's not believing something or other. In otherwords, its suppose to mean "Yes"..


Thank god, he helped me evolve and see the clouds of brainwashing that the othodoxy of the Church created over my life.


note: It still took a few years for me to not be insulted by "does the pope wear a beanie" question.
I always heard it as "Is the Pope Catholic?"

Most often, "Does a bear sh*t in the woods?"
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Unread 03-25-2020, 08:04 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Thank God, he helped me see the clouds of brainwashing that occultism creates in people's lives.
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Unread 03-25-2020, 08:14 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

David: - Oh I use to hear that one too! I forgot about it. It took a few more years of study, (Cardinal signs don't easily give in) but eventually logic and listening to common sense, began to lift those clouds. After all, I had gone to Catholic Schools, churches, etc for many years. I think (organized religions & orthodoxy) is more an emotional security blanket for most.

Quote:

note: It still took a few years for me to not be insulted by "does the pope wear a beanie" question. I always heard it as "Is the Pope Catholic?"

Most often, "Does a bear sh*t in the woods?"
added:
I have long since, adhered more to the same ideas as Spinoza promulgated, as did Einstein when the said the following:

author of this pdf thesis - Peter Critchley:

"Spinoza’s ethics are firmly grounded in the intellectual appreciation of theone single self-subsistent entity ‘God/Nature’. For Spinoza, the ‘intellectual love of God’ is the highest form of philosophic wisdom and is achieved through the recognition of facts without the intrusion of subjective fears and hopes. This recognition is impassive, without sentiment.


Let us recall again Einstein’s statement: 'I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings'.

Such a view would explain God in terms of natural laws and processes and would also indicate God’s apparent indifference to human suffering, pain, misery etc. That would be one answer to the question as to why human beings rather than God are responsible for the bad things that happen in the world"



https://www.academia.edu/1695986/God_Who_What_and_Where
------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Although Spinoza is my go-to for reason and logic as well as faith in a "fair" god of neutrality, (for he makes it to rain on the just and unjust alike) Matt: 5:
Quote:
that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
I do tend to give due respect to ALL who follow a spiritual path, regardless of the methodology they choose as long as they do not harm others.



And in saying this, I distinguish between orthodox religions with no room for another's opinion. The last time I went to a church I had to pull my husband kicking & screaming out the door, j/k and attended an Episcopal Mass because I always heard they were the most liberal of all the Christian churches today. I wasn't disappointed but haven't yet returned. I would try Unity too, but the one nearest me is not that close plus they tend to have Spiritualists come to their services to speak. That was okay for me when young and curious, but I've moved away from this other then curiosity when I was in my early 20s. Haven't been back since.



****Did however, pick up a little booklet there back then which I managed to hold onto, when everything else was sold or given away to LIbraries when we moved.
It was by Krishnamurti when he was a child.


I've long since decided K wasn't my type of tea either for what I consider to be very good reason. And his name was the late Physicist David Bohm. ... (poor guy) Spoiler alert: Dr. Bohm was brokenhearted because of his years at the feet of "K" in California.


Fraud or Saint?

http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stg...ishnamurti.asp

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Unread 03-25-2020, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by leomoon View Post
David: - Oh I use to hear that one too! I forgot about it. It took a few more years of study, (Cardinal signs don't easily give in) but eventually logic and listening to common sense, began to lift those clouds. After all, I had gone to Catholic Schools, churches, etc for many years. I think (organized religions & orthodoxy) is more an emotional security blanket for most.

added:
I have long since, adhered more to the same ideas as Spinoza promulgated, as did Einstein when the said the following:

author of this pdf thesis - Peter Critchley:

"Spinoza’s ethics are firmly grounded in the intellectual appreciation of theone single self-subsistent entity ‘God/Nature’. For Spinoza, the ‘intellectual love of God’ is the highest form of philosophic wisdom and is achieved through the recognition of facts without the intrusion of subjective fears and hopes. This recognition is impassive, without sentiment.


Let us recall again Einstein’s statement: 'I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings'.

Such a view would explain God in terms of natural laws and processes and would also indicate God’s apparent indifference to human suffering, pain, misery etc. That would be one answer to the question as to why human beings rather than God are responsible for the bad things that happen in the world"



https://www.academia.edu/1695986/God_Who_What_and_Where
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Although Spinoza is my go-to for reason and logic as well as faith in a "fair" god of neutrality, (for he makes it to rain on the just and unjust alike) Matt: 5:
I do tend to give due respect to ALL who follow a spiritual path, regardless of the methodology they choose as long as they do not harm others.



And in saying this, I distinguish between orthodox religions with no room for another's opinion. The last time I went to a church I had to pull my husband kicking & screaming out the door, j/k and attended an Episcopal Mass because I always heard they were the most liberal of all the Christian churches today. I wasn't disappointed but haven't yet returned. I would try Unity too, but the one nearest me is not that close plus they tend to have Spiritualists come to their services to speak. That was okay for me when young and curious, but I've moved away from this other then curiosity when I was in my early 20s. Haven't been back since.



****Did however, pick up a little booklet there back then which I managed to hold onto, when everything else was sold or given away to LIbraries when we moved.
It was by Krishnamurti when he was a child.


I've long since decided K wasn't my type of tea either for what I consider to be very good reason. And his name was the late Physicist David Bohm. ... (poor guy) Spoiler alert: Dr. Bohm was brokenhearted because of his years at the feet of "K" in California.


Fraud or Saint?

http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stg...ishnamurti.asp
Krishnamurti was a brilliant thinker who declined not just sainthood, but being designated the messiah (of all things!) by Rosecutions. He relied on logic, and encouraged people to think for themselves. He warned against ritualistic religious practices in an effort to achieve enlightenment.

Here's one: The farmer prays for rain, and the brick-maker prays for sun. But, God doesn't play favorites.
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