Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

Dirius

Well-known member
7th house is Gate of death? = 7th is partner of the native, the other party normally. Why does he say it is Gate of Death? Can you explain that please?

The short story: the 7th is the house of the descendant, where the Sun sets. One of the symbolisms of the Sun is as life-force in the chart (thus the reason why many length of life techniques use the Sun as a main indicator, along with the Moon).

The Sun setting in the horizon has a symbolism of ending. Thus why the 7th is associated with death.
 
Last edited:

Senecar

Well-known member
If you feel you are being attacked or insulted, you can report the member or post, or send a pm to a moderator. You can also ignore them.

That aside, you can't micromanage a person's behaviour in a debate. Everyone has different manners when engaging in a discussion. On an internet forum no one can prevent you from actually saying what you wish to say (unlike real life where people can either interrupt you or talk over you), so there is no actual impedement to a debate because of bad attitude.

This section in particular has always worked as a sort of sanctuary for traditional discussions where members can freely engage in debate and tear each other apart. It is sort of the culture that belongs to this section. You may notice that everyone speaks in a similar manner.



This section has always been used for sensible discussion. So, while there is no written rule, most people are expected to have genuine arguments regarding a subject. If for example, someone dislikes Valens, you are expected to give valid criticism of his techniques or theorems. An argument that is based on a 3rd party opinion, isn't really considered constructive.

As for the authors, from a traditional perspective, most of us consider some of the theorems of modern astrology to be incompatible with astrology (the use of the outer planets). Thus a "modern" astrologer's opinion doesn't hold much credibility on this section.

I know all these unofficial rules and regulations seem harsh, but that is how our small community operates. You are welcome to join the club, just leave your feelings at the door. Its what prevents this section from descending into madness like it happened to the Horary section, which is treated like nothing more than a dating app addon for users these days.

As I said it doesn't bother me at all. I was just saying but it might bother them, that's why they keep dragging it on and on and on ..... :) instead of discussing about real astrology.

I was just clarifying my ideas about it. I was only responding.

If no one started lashing out personally on my posts, or keep reminding me of what I said about my SOLE interest (which I have no memory of saying :)), or keep telling go and read the book repeatedly, we wouldn't have this discussions, honestly :)
 
Last edited:

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

7th house is Gate of death? = 7th is partner of the native, the other party normally.
Why does he say it is Gate of Death?
Can you explain that please?

The short story: the 7th is the house of the descendant, where the Sun sets.
One of the symbolisms of the Sun is as life-force in the chart
(thus the reason why many length of life techniques
use the Sun as a main indicator, along with the Moon).

The Sun setting in the horizon has a symbolism of ending.
Thus why the 7th is associated with death.
thanks Dirius :smile:
 

Senecar

Well-known member
The short story: the 7th is the house of the descendant, where the Sun sets. One of the symbolisms of the Sun is as life-force in the chart (thus the reason why many length of life techniques use the Sun as a main indicator, along with the Moon).

The Sun setting in the horizon has a symbolism of ending. Thus why the 7th is associated with death.

Clear explanation, thanks.

Do you use 7th house as Death then? I always used to use 8th house as Death, and maybe 4th, 6th and 12th as supplementary. But never 7th as death.

7th house as Death, did it work accurate in real readings?
 

Dirius

Well-known member
Clear explanation, thanks.

Do you use 7th house as Death then? I always used to use 8th house as Death, and maybe 4th, 6th and 12th as supplementary. But never 7th as death.

7th house as Death, did it work accurate in real readings?

I've never done a life length/death reading to be honest, and I would refuse those in any case. I'm just throwing in the theoretical reasoning for the 7th as death significator. So I have no practical knowledge if it works or not.

For example, in horary death technique the descendant point is significator of death, along conjunction with the Sun and contact with the 8th house significator.
 
Last edited:

Senecar

Well-known member
I've never done a life length/death reading to be honest, and I would refuse those in any case. I'm just throwing in the theoretical reasoning for the 7th as death significator. So I have no practical knowledge if it works or not.

For example, in horary death technique the descendant point is significator of death, along conjunction with the Sun and contact with the 8th house significator.


Fair enough.

I go by 8th house as death because it is where Scorpio is originally.
I heard a news of relative's death when Mars entered his 8th house.

What about Valens 2nd house description? To me, 2nd house was always about the natives money, finance, wealth, poverty and possession.

Why does Valens describe it as "Gates of Haddes"?
 

Oddity

Well-known member
The contribution from Iraq - I think you're mostly thinking of the Harranean Sabeans (I've probably misspelt one of those), who considered themselves the true heirs to the Greeks. Thabbit ibn Qurra is mostly remembered for his work in mathematics, but he was also an astrologer and wrote extensively about talismanic magic in astrology. David Pingree suggests that the Harraneans invented it, and I'm not inclined to disagree with him there.

Read de Imaginibus, it's absolutely fascinating stuff. He goes through the logic of all kinds of talismans, from sign and house placement to nakshatras, as well as the actual 'making of', though the most important thing was getting the chart right. The astrological 'spelling out' might help you some there.

That period is where you'll find most of the 'mixy' I think, at least in what we consider the western tradition. You'll also find a lot of overlap from Greek to Jyotish, because Jyotish is based in Hellenic astrology.

Late to the party. Sorry for that.

Not sure how the thread turned into sidereal tropic debate, but that's what I read from JA's reply to jazz.

For Arabic Astrology, should Babylonia not accounted as one too? Babylonia was the ancient land for now Iraq? Surely Iraq is that part of the world?

If so, Babylonians had sophisticated astrology from BC 700-800 time having their own ephemerides, charts with angles of stars, dignity tables etc? Their system had been passed onto ancient Egypt, and then to Greece and Rome?
 

petosiris

Banned
I go by 8th house as death because it is where Scorpio is originally.

The signs=houses system is a medieval (and even then, not very popular) idea and is nowhere to be found in Hellenistic astrology. I see no rationale to assign death to the 8th, but I also prefer the fourth to indicate death and the seventh as indicating old age (I mean later life, as some people do not live to an old age, but I still believe the diurnal cycle symbolism applies to them).

Take Hitler's nativity (it is not that different in tropical for this particular) for example - https://i.imgur.com/vPbpwmX.jpg

Basically ''artist/rags'' (I - Venus retreating with Mars and square with Saturn) to ''tyrant/riches'' in late life, with power over life and death (VII - Mars in his bound and sign, with the Sun, Venus and Mercury, trined by Jupiter), with a depression (in a metaphorical sense) and suicide at the end (Saturn opposing the IV).

With the middle period, he has some popularity, but also reversals involving even prison. The Moon is well placed, but inoperative and Saturn is in the X (whole sign tropical astrologers may disagree here by insisting that the middle period is around 1933, but in that case I find the IV and VII not as relatable in tropical, at least concerning this particular technique).

https://i.imgur.com/05zs0lt.jpg

The pope has the Sun, Mercury and Jupiter in the seventh place, all well placed.

I still find the length of life and time lords more important, but there is some merit to this technique. You want to examine the angles and their rulers anyways.

This does not appear to be a Time Lord technique to me, as it does not give you any specific years.

''What about Valens 2nd house description? To me, 2nd house was always about the natives money, finance, wealth, poverty and possession.

Why does Valens describe it as "Gates of Haddes"?''

It is obvious. It is the gate of the underworld, as the I is the Rising Sign at the horizon. However, I heavily disagree with Valens' delineations of II, VIII, III and IX places. You can read a discussion on my problem here - http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9952&start=15 . It is very likely that some early author changed the angularity scheme of Nechepso and Petosiris and you get some contradictions in the anthology. The problem of unconfigured succedents and configured declines is also present in Dorotheus. Both authors seem to employ one scheme with one technique and a different scheme with a second technique, evidently because the originators of Triplicity Rulers technique followed Nechepso's scheme, but people like Hermes and Asclepius followed a different rationale in deriving place significations.
 
Last edited:

waybread

Well-known member
For the most part, I am not a fan of the modern proclivity to conflate signs and houses. They normally do not mean the same thing, except in medical astrology.

Certainly there are glimmers of an ancient sign-house correspondence when we look at the sun's diurnal cycle through the houses. The third house represented brothers as well as "the goddess", with brothers seeming like Gemini. Possibly death and Scorpio; not merely because the species of scorpions in the Near East can be deadly, but also because mid-afternoon (not noon) was the super-hot period of the day in summer. (cf. the Spanish mid-afternoon siesta.)

Although the sun rises into the 12th house, and thus should rationally be fortunate, the "house of the bad daemon" had a lot of parallels in ancient Egypt to the deep mists along the Nile at sunrise and often dusty air quality; which prompted Ptolemy to remark on how stars near the horizon were difficult to see properly. In ancient Egypt, the god Seth ruled the sand and dust storms, and seems comparable to Typhon, to whom Manilius gave this house. Unsurprisingly, Saturn joys in this house.
(Nile sunrise photo attahced.)

There is also a relationship between the 9th house and Sagittarius. Chiron (Kheiron) is a good candidate for the centaur of Sagittarius. Mythological Chiron was known for his healing arts, wisdom and taught many of ancient Greece's heros (the 9th rules higher education.) He also mentored Aesclepius, who was the son of Apollo. The god Apollo, who eventually usurped the role of Phaeton as sun god, also ruled the healing arts and prophecy. The stars of the constellation Ophiuchus (Aesclepius) became incorporated into Saggitarius and Scorpio. The sun joys in the 9th house.

In Greek mythology, there is a strong relationship between the attributes of the parent and child, with the child oftentimes taking on a narrow focus of one of the parent god's attributes.

Where this leads in terms of Arabic parts would be those based upon the ones that involve house cusps.

My sources here are from a terrific website, www.theoi.com .
 

Attachments

  • sunrise-over-the-nile-river-kenneth-garrett.jpg
    sunrise-over-the-nile-river-kenneth-garrett.jpg
    20.3 KB · Views: 20

Senecar

Well-known member
The signs=houses system is a medieval (and even then, not very popular) idea and is nowhere to be found in Hellenistic astrology. I see no rationale to assign death to the 8th, but I also prefer the fourth to indicate death and the seventh as indicating old age (I mean later life, as some people do not live to an old age, but I still believe the diurnal cycle symbolism applies to them).

Take Hitler's nativity (it is not that different in tropical for this particular) for example - https://i.imgur.com/vPbpwmX.jpg

Basically ''artist/rags'' (I - Venus retreating with Mars and square with Saturn) to ''tyrant/riches'' in late life, with power over life and death (VII - Mars in his bound and sign, with the Sun, Venus and Mercury, trined by Jupiter), with a depression (in a metaphorical sense) and suicide at the end (Saturn opposing the IV).

With the middle period, he has some popularity, but also reversals involving even prison. The Moon is well placed, but inoperative and Saturn is in the X (whole sign tropical astrologers may disagree here by insisting that the middle period is around 1933, but in that case I find the IV and VII not as relatable in tropical, at least concerning this particular technique).

https://i.imgur.com/05zs0lt.jpg

The pope has the Sun, Mercury and Jupiter in the seventh place, all well placed.

I still find the length of life and time lords more important, but there is some merit to this technique. You want to examine the angles and their rulers anyways.

This does not appear to be a Time Lord technique to me, as it does not give you any specific years.

''What about Valens 2nd house description? To me, 2nd house was always about the natives money, finance, wealth, poverty and possession.

Why does Valens describe it as "Gates of Haddes"?''

It is obvious. It is the gate of the underworld, as the I is the Rising Sign at the horizon. However, I heavily disagree with Valens' delineations of II, VIII, III and IX places. You can read a discussion on my problem here - http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9952&start=15 . It is very likely that some early author changed the angularity scheme of Nechepso and Petosiris and you get some contradictions in the anthology. The problem of unconfigured succedents and configured declines is also present in Dorotheus. Both authors seem to employ one scheme with one technique and a different scheme with a second technique, evidently because the originators of Triplicity Rulers technique followed Nechepso's scheme, but people like Hermes and Asclepius followed a different rationale in deriving place significations.

I see the House of Death as 8th House, in The Encyclopaedia of Medical Astrology by H.L. Cornell MD.

It says, malefics in 8th house causes death of the Natives. If Saturn, then by disease or illness, if Mars, then by accidents or violence, or suddenly.

Not sure about the source of that claim, but the book is published in 1930s in USA.
 

petosiris

Banned
Well if you use my techniques you will have it as follows. The Place of Bad (Saturn to Mars) is Cancer configured with the two malefics, the IV is configured with the two malefics, the ruler of the Lot of Fortune is also configured with the two malefics. The Lot and the ruler of the Lot of Bad is inoperative, and the ruler of IV is Saturn.

As I note in Book IV:
Internal death is indicated if many stars have their share in health indications.
Accidental death is indicated if Saturn predominates the bad indications.
Violent death is indicated if Mars predominates the bad indications.
Suicidal death is indicated if both Saturn and Mars predominate the bad indications.

As Mars and Mercury rule action (because they rule the place of Fortune and the Predominator), they indicate a commander and a fighter anyways, so it is another indication.

The Sun is Predominator. It gives 19 years to itself, 15 years to Mars, 8 years to Venus and 30 years to Saturn (Venus rules L2 at the very end), while by releasing in rising times it is in a Venus bound (bad star in this nativity imo). Venus also rules the 129 years of the Lot, Mercury allots 20 years to itself, 19 to Sun, 15 to Mars, 8 to Venus.

Balbilus also says that the benefics do not intervene in inoperative zoidia (I use longevity techniques, not alcocoden, but places of life instead though). The Predominator reaches the killing ray of the Moon by ascension.

This is the length of life.

The Lot and the Lot of Bad also signify infirmities, however they are not the cause of death here. Hitler suffered in the abdomen on account of Cancer - Bad (and maybe VI - Pisces) and Parkinson or some tremors on account of Gemini - the Lot.
 
Last edited:

Senecar

Well-known member
So, do you then use LOTS to calculate Natives life time as your main prediction for death method in Astrological Readings? If yes, what would you say on the accuracy in real readings?

Aren't LOTS added features in the charts? = minor aspects?

Have they used LOTS as main methods for prediction in Hellenistic Astrology? What other prediction methods had they used apart from LOTS and Time Lord system?
 
Last edited:

petosiris

Banned
So, do you then use LOTS to calculate Natives life time as your main prediction for death method in Astrological Readings? If yes, what would you say on the accuracy in real readings?

Aren't LOTS added features in the charts? = minor aspects?

Have they used LOTS as main methods for prediction in Hellenistic Astrology? What other prediction methods had they used apart from LOTS and Time Lord system?

Releasing/circumambulation of the Predominator through the bounds is my main tool for prediction. It works about 30-40% of the time on its own, or about 50% with slight modifications. It works well to the year. I have found this technique to be the most reliable one out of all. Indeed it works on its own in this particular nativity.

However, it does not satisfy me with perfect results, so I have added my own modifications to it. This is to take note of places of life - Hour-Marker, Lights, Lot of Fortune, Syzygy and their rulers (especially the ruler of the Predominator - Master of the Nativity). If you carefully examine those in the chart you will see that it is a chart of an average (for the time, universals should also be taken into account) lived person. There are statements of longevity being assigned to the Lights or the Hour-Marker, but the problem is how to integrate them with a length of life technique.

Comparing the Lots to minor aspects is highly unwise.

Yes, they have. And they appear to invoke them more frequently than house placements.

They used I, setting bound (Critodemus on violent death) and some other statements as longevity techniques or violent death predictions, but they appear to be relatively unpopular compared to the technique of Petosiris. The circumambulation through the bounds was also a Time Lord technique on its own.

The usage of Lots in iatromathematics is preserved in Valens 2.36, however I prefer to use the natural significations of the signs instead of numbers.

It makes little sense to think that everyone with Saturn in Taurus will have an infirmity in the neck, the nativities differ on account of the placement of lots, which change in minutes and thus even twins are predisposed to have a difference of important placements.

To do life predictions, one needs to be aware of a possible death. As Ptolemy quotes Petosiris:

''The consideration of the length of life takes the leading place among inquiries about events following birth, for, as the ancient says, it is ridiculous to attach particular predictions to one who, by the constitution of the years of his life, will never attain at all to the time of the predicted events.'' - 3.10 Ptolemy trans. by Robbins

There is not much use in this outside of not predicting elevation or marriage or offspring next year for one that is going to live through a crisis of health through it.

What other method did they use? Read them for yourself.
 
Last edited:

petosiris

Banned
Certainly there are glimmers of an ancient sign-house correspondence when we look at the sun's diurnal cycle through the houses.

This is certainly the problem of the conflation and why it is not present anywhere in the Hellenistic tradition. The Sun does no go through the signs during the course of the day, it goes through places. You found similarities only for two signs and houses, and they are really fanciful at best, especially when you compare goddess with twins, nothing in common. You rely too much on mythology and association, rather than quoting the technical manuals of the ancient astrologers where it is clear, they did not thought of this. The only present scheme that is somewhat similar is the Thema Mundi.

A few astrologers (like Valens) say Aries is the Midheaven of the Universe and that Cancer is the Ascendant of the Universe, evidently another statement that is contrary to the modern scheme of Aries = Ascendant of which there is no mention.
 
Last edited:

waybread

Well-known member
Sorry, Petosiris-- perhaps my tracing of some ancient house-sign (initially planet-constellation) similarities was a bit too subtle. I could go into this in more detail notably on the Egyptian influence in thematic house meanings, but I note that this thread deals with Arabic parts.

I suppose it's a mere coincidence that the Hellenistic 3rd house and 3rd sign relate to brothers (among other themes,) that the sun-god of prophecy (Apollo) father of Aesclepias (Ophiuchus) who was tutored by Kheiron (Sagittarius) joys in the 9th house, or that Typhon of the 12th house (Manilius) was the Greek edition of Seth, Egyptian god of sandstorms. We could talk about the Egyptian Duat (Osiris's hall of justice) and the 4th house. Another time, perhaps.

I truly think the modern planet-house-sign conflation is way overdone to modern astrology's detriment. You are familiar with Deborah Houlding's book, Houses: Temples of the Sky.

On the other hand, there is a traditional conflation of houses and signs by-the-numbers in medical astrology. I don't know how old it is. You are familiar with the "anatomical man" or "man of the signs," and medical astrology's use of different houses to signify different parts of the body.

The diurnal houses overlay the dial of the signs. This is why someone's 5th house cusp might be Gemini. I didn't mean to imply that the sun whips through 12 zodiac signs in the course of a day.

The Thema Mundi also refutes a naturalized notion of signs=houses in ancient times.
 

Attachments

  • Anatomical_Man.jpg
    Anatomical_Man.jpg
    71 KB · Views: 28
Last edited:

petosiris

Banned
It is a mere coincidence. You use one comment by a poet referring to the XII, but I am sure you will never be able to prove IX = Kheiron or the rest, not the least because astrologers differed in their interpretation of them considerably from author to author. Good thing you have not found the Greek ''Zoroastrian'' astrological text as that may even give you even worse ideas.

Number iatromathematics is present in the Indian and in the Medieval traditions. I am not aware of any author mentioning it in the Hellenistic tradition and I believe it is absent. I have no opinion on that as I have not put it to trial, but I have to say it is logical and possible compared to saying that Mars opposition Sun is enough to be an indication of circulatory problems on its own.

Some Hellenistic authors and the Indian tradition contain the Aries - Pisces zodiac man, however I have to reject it, as it seems to be tropical in mind. This is one of the arguments that the zodiac must begin from Aries.

I made the following myself:
Sun - Circulatory System, Nervous System, Right Eye
Moon - Respiratory System, Upper Gastrointestinal Tract, Left Eye
Saturn - Skeletal System, Lymphatic System, Immune System
Jupiter - Reproductive System, Digestive System, Integumentary System
Mars - Muscular System, Urinary System, Lower Gastrointestinal Tract
Venus - Olfactory System, Reproductive Organs, Secondary Sex Characteristics
Mercury - Vestibular System, Gustatory System, Auditory System

It is quite generalized, however one can become more specific if he combines two indications, for example (Steve Jobs) Infirmity/Aquarius (cancer) and Lot/Cancer (pancreas) = pancreatic cancer. I am open to ideas that do not involve neck and shoulders, to allow one to properly distinguish exactly the area, as why it was not a stomach cancer for example.

The problem is that there are only Seven Stars and Twelve Signs, while the diseases are countless.
 
Last edited:

waybread

Well-known member
Petosiris, I don't know how much academic history you've studied, (or should I say, historiography,) but really, solid proof is often not possible due to the fragmentary nature of evidence. This is especially true for Hellenistic astrology, where you seem mighty certain of various propositions that more careful scholars might find suggestive, rather than conclusive; notably in your handling of astrologers whose works did not survive in the original. (Read: second-hand evidence, or hearsay.)

I could start a thread on my theories of the Egyptian origins of thematic house meanings, although Skyscript might be a better place for it. Please realize that I had more than one source for the houses I'd studied to date. I quoted Manilius alone here, because his book is readily accessible.

We could start another thread on the history of medical astrology.

More to the point, this here is a thread about Arabic parts.

Speaking of which, it occurred to me to pull out my copy of Robert Zoller's The Arabic Parts in Astrology: A Lost Key to Prediction (1989.) Thanks to him, the Arabic parts are not so lost anymore. Highly recommended.
 

petosiris

Banned
It is true that what I do is not conclusive and hypothetical, but what you say is absolutely fanciful. I have some evidence, you have none to work with. Argument ex silentio seems to be a very strong argument in this case.

You are trying to cast too much doubt on traditional astrology. You are free to quote any academic as an argument against any of my points, I much prefer that to straw man arguments.
 
Last edited:

Senecar

Well-known member
Chris Brennan's Hellenistic Astrology says that Valens lists the 8th house as Death (Anthology Book 9), so I am not sure where 7th house for death come from.

He also infers that Valens might have had took chunk out of the text from Asclepius, and put it into his Anthology Book 9, because it just exactly sounds like him.

Also for general house placements in Hellenistic Astrology, he keeps saying 8th House relates to Death, not 7th.


 

petosiris

Banned
Chris Brennan's Hellenistic Astrology says that Valens lists the 8th house as Death (Anthology Book 9), so I am not sure where 7th house for death come from.

He also infers that Valens might have had took chunk out of the text from Asclepius, and put it into his Anthology Book 9, because it just exactly sounds like him.

Also for general house placements in Hellenistic Astrology, he keeps saying 8th House relates to Death, not 7th.



Read my posts again. I am not going to write the same thing over and over again.
 
Top