Adolf Hitler?

Why was my thread moved here? The thread wasn't about Adolf Hitler but criticizing how astrologers wll judge how correct a natal chart and birth time is based on the text book image of famous celebrities and have a tendency to immediately discredit birth time if it doesn't match the popular image of a celebrity.

I just used Adolf Hitler example because he's the most abused one of all time. The fact people still continue to argue against his birth time despite at least one official document stating his birth time being discovered people still continue to insist he is Scorpio Asc.

In fact I'm even flabbergasted astrologers would even attempt to give a birth time of famous celebrities who we don't even know their true birthday is such as Alexander of Macedonia.

I ask for my thread to be separated back into its origins as a separate one! I was already going to link some threads written by historians and history buffs Greybeard how wrong he is about calling Hitler a psychopath and his claims that his birth chart shows a madman from the moment he was born as well as explain Cap why just because Hitler endorsed killing people in public it doesn't mean he was a madman and I was even going to link non-astrology threads about just how terrible bigotry was in Europe (specifically Germany) during HItler's childhood .

Thats also why I mentioned Alexander in the same OP. Because astrologer's are pulling it out of nowhere his Ascendant is in Aries simply because he was a bloodthirsty conqueror who glorified war.

Ignoring that the Ancient Greeks glorified war and thought a real man was one who did not cower away when Phalanx were going to clash and stood his ground in formation as the bloodbath ensued. The fact even great philosophers like Plato had fought there share of battles shows just how blatantly ignorant it is to rectify Alexander's chat as Aries ascendant merely on "he conquered the world and glorified war" as it ignores much of the Ancient Greek's culture and life philosophy as well as also the fact Alexander came from a bloodline of might conquerors of a Greek tribe known to be just as warlike as the Spartans were (and arguably even superior to the 300 in military science).

HoldOrFold said:

People... the sign of someone's ascendant is not going to dictate how good or evil they are.

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Well, that assertion says it all about your take on astrology.

Hold or Fold said
People... the sign of someone's ascendant is not going to dictate how good or evil they are.

I concur wholeheartedly.

And now I am curious. What is your take on astrology?

Scorpio888 said:

Well, that assertion says it all about your take on astrology.

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Does it say something good or bad about his take on Astrology?

I mean, all that his statement reveals is that he's against believing one sign to be more or less evil than another.

People who fear unjust bias towards a sign might think it's a good take, while people who believe the negative traits of signs are being whitewashed might think it's a bad take.

It isn't clear from your statement whether you approve or disapprove. You basically just said that his statement reflects his perspective, but without revealing anything about your own views.

Insisting upon a Scorpio ascendant for Hitler does not seem to conform with the significant life events we are aware of in his life. Even if one were to discount the documented birth time as being potentially inaccurate in some way, timing of Nazi propaganda by the Third Reich's astrologers support Hitler having a Libra Ascendant, as his rectified birth time used by the party was also with ascendant in Libra.
Asserting that he must have had his ascendant in another sign seems to be a rather clear example of http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias when the supporting evidence of events and observed characteristics of Hitler by those who met him in life strongly support Ascendant in Libra.
I personally find it more interesting when astrology helps to bring to light some evidence that challenges any preconceived notions we might have about astrology, or a person, Hitler or otherwise. It is in those times that I find I learn most about astrology.

heretolearn said:

Insisting upon a Scorpio ascendant for Hitler does not seem to conform with the significant life events we are aware of in his life. Even if one were to discount the documented birth time as being potentially inaccurate in some way, timing of Nazi propaganda by the Third Reich's astrologers support Hitler having a Libra Ascendant, as his rectified birth time used by the party was also with ascendant in Libra.
Asserting that he must have had his ascendant in another sign seems to be a rather clear example of http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias when the supporting evidence of events and observed characteristics of Hitler by those who met him in life strongly support Ascendant in Libra.
I personally find it more interesting when astrology helps to bring to light some evidence that challenges any preconceived notions we might have about astrology, or a person, Hitler or otherwise. It is in those times that I find I learn most about astrology.

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I PMed him (and Greybeard) links about Adolf Hitler by historians and devoted historybuffs (a few even being hosted by major publications such as Dailymail) about some of the factoids of Adolf Hitler's personal life outside of propaganda. Some of these stuff are even quite recent discoveries stemming from Hitler's personal writings or unclassified Nazi documents as recent as 2013 and even this year 2014! These show a totally different view of Hitler with some links I Pmed even showing him saving some Jews who he considered long time friends.

At least one link shows Hitler did not have anti-Semitic beliefs in his youth and he picked it up much later as a result of his learning years in school (which really espoused hate and racism) and mingling around with Germans of all background during his freetime.

I'm not going to even comment on the insistence he had Scorpio Asc but I will definitely state most astrologers on this site don't actually bother to learn who Adolf Hitler was and instead choose to spin a natal chart to match his post-WWII image of a sadistic warmonger who had intrinsic hatred and was always looking to murder people from day 1 upon his birth.

If anyone actually bothers to study the time period Hitler was from, Libra Ascendant makes far more sense than Scorpio. Whatever traits Hitler had such as militarism and paranoia were the results of being raised in the culture and time he was in and also of his life experience. I mean who wouldn't develop anxiety that the bar keeper in front of you is trying to poison you or your favorite bodyguard was planting a bomb in your room if you just faced 40 (known) assassination attempts and have lots of political opponents looking to overthrow you? Add being a war veteran who barely survived from a brutal gas bombing and became homeless after the war and it only makes sense to suspect everyone around you is out there to kill you and to be so **** bitter and angry to the point you openly persecute your known opponents.

Pertaining to militarism, World War 1 anyone? Germany was so militaristic upon its unification in the 1800s it not only kicked France up so hard they also waged quite a couple of small scale wars with nearby countries.

heretolearn said:

Insisting upon a Scorpio ascendant for Hitler does not seem to conform with the significant life events we are aware of in his life. Even if one were to discount the documented birth time as being potentially inaccurate in some way, timing of Nazi propaganda by the Third Reich's astrologers support Hitler having a Libra Ascendant, as his rectified birth time used by the party was also with ascendant in Libra.
Asserting that he must have had his ascendant in another sign seems to be a rather clear example of http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias when the supporting evidence of events and observed characteristics of Hitler by those who met him in life strongly support Ascendant in Libra.
I personally find it more interesting when astrology helps to bring to light some evidence that challenges any preconceived notions we might have about astrology, or a person, Hitler or otherwise. It is in those times that I find I learn most about astrology.

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My sentiments exactly. Why go through such great pains to change a chart to fit a preconceived notion instead of sitting down and reading it as it is? Your final comment on finding it interesting to bring to light things that challenge aour preconceived notions is one that I share immensely. It's always nice to see the struggles and complexes that go on behind the historical figure. I'm about to take a crack at Richard Nixon's chart, and of course I could try to throw my preconceived notions onto it to prove to myself that Nixon is a crook, but it's much, much more interesting and fair to see what the chart has to say about Nixon, you know to actually learn about him rather than using the chart to stroke my own biases or rewrite history. It's the same for any historical figure: just read the chart, leave your biases at the door.

And yes, astrology is ripe for confirmation bias when people superficially glance at charts instead of really trying to understand them.

HoldOrFold said:

People... the sign of someone's ascendant is not going to dictate how good or evil they are.

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Preach! There is no single anything in any chart whatsoever that's going to dictate how good or evil you are. Ever. The whole "Scorpio rising" is evil thing is ridiculous.

I guess the reason I'm so adamant about stomping out the "Hitler must be a Scorpio rising" is because it's just an unnecessary failure to leave well enough alone. We have his chart, we have his birth time, we can study his chart. There's no need to change things around to make it better or to make it fit our preconceived notions. Just read the chart.

Scorpio888 said:

Well, that assertion says it all about your take on astrology.

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I'm going to be the third one to ask you this.....but what's your take on astrology? Do you believe that the sign of someone's Ascendant is enough to determine how good or evil they are?

We have his chart, we have his birth time, we can study his chart. There's no need to change things around to make it better or to make it fit our preconceived notions. Just read the chart.

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I find it astounding that anyone can be so determined that a birthtime from 125 years ago, one that appears to be rounded off to the nearest half hour, and with another ascendant only minutes away, can still be considered by some to be irrefutably concrete.
　
Preconceived notions indeed.

Scorpio888 said:

　
I find it astounding that anyone can be so determined that a birthtime from 125 years ago, one that appears to be rounded off to the nearest half hour, and with another ascendant only minutes away, can still be considered by some to be irrefutably concrete.
　
Preconceived notions indeed.

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I'm sorry Scorpio888 I tried to understand what your argument was, but whatever clever point you were trying to make has been lost. Why? Because you have utterly failed to explain your position. You just keep asserting, over and over again that he has a Scorpio Ascendant and that because me, and others, are willing to stick to a Libra Ascendant, we're somehow being dogmatic.

I find it astounding that someone can be so determined to continue to hold onto the idea that someone's Ascendant is in the next sign without feeling the need to provide any explanation or evidence whatsoever and then criticize those who stick to the known, agreed on, workable birth time as being dogmatic or biased.

Projection and cognitive biases are afoot....

You think he has a Scorpio Ascendant? Fine. Tell use his correct birth time then and provide us with sources to verify this Scorpio rising birth time. Unless you can do that, you're pulling this out of thin air. Unless you can provide a rectified, superior birth time, then it makes much more sense to stick with the verified birth time that we have. I'll take the AA-rated birth time before some random person's completely unverified gut feeling. If you contend that it's based on something more than your own personal feelings or opinion then all you have to do is give us his correct birth time, his correct Ascending degree in Scorpio, and sources that verify your rectified birth time.

His birth time may not be irrefutably concrete, but changing it because it "feels right" is bonkers. Provide us with a different, verified birth time and I'll jump on board. Until then, we use what we have, we study what we have, and leave well enough alone. Doing this isn't holding onto preconceived notions, rather, it's trying to avoid letting personal opinion trump accurate astrology by fixing something that's not broken because it feels right. I'll say it again, if your Scorpio Ascendant idea is based on something more than your own personal feelings, show us a birth time or a rectified chart.

Scorpio888 said:

Well, that assertion says it all about your take on astrology.

Click to expand...

Also, you avoided answering this. You were unclear when you posted that. What's your take on astrology? Is the sign of the Ascendant alone enough to determine how good or evil they are? I'm not accusing you of believing that, just asking for an explanation.

Adolf Hitler and Lot of Administration in Scorpio

Some of you who's been following the Adolf Hitler threads around here have seen me and Sworm repeatedly state not only is it ludicrous to claim Hitler had Scorpio Ascendant for reasons stated in that thread, we both know based on historical facts Hitler's personality outside of propaganda and popular image was Venusian to the core.

However I've been exploring the more subtle nuances of Hitler's chart lately and I learned within the Arabic Parts, he had his Lot of Administrators and Ministers in Scorpio.

While Hitler taken as a whole was definitely not Scorpionic; even assuming the Ascendant is merely a social mask he cannot be Scorpio because he was far too charmy and extroverted in his public image.

However as we know his popular image in history was that he was an aggressive militarist who glorified war and supported complete control of the government and he was quite paranoid as a person when he was a furor.

Although deeper studies sort of subverts this image, as a whole as far as being leader of Germany he indeed matches this stereotypical image that is often associated with dictators who had Scorpio Ascendant.

I am wondering; can this all be attributed to having his Arabic Part of Administration in Scorpio? I won't go into deep biographic and historical details here because surprisingly he wasn't as militarist as we tend to think of him and his view on military tend to be more pragmatic (so I wasn't surprised at all to learn his Part of Armies is in Capricorn).

But even taking into account real biographic and historical sources, as far as ruling Germany goes specifically in the domestic politics sector, he was as Scorpio as a president could be. He was not against arresting random citizens simply because he felt they were plotting against him even with lack of proof and much of his political maneuvers revolved heavily around the military; it can be argued because of Germany's military successes is what made him remain in power so long even by the time the tides of the war was changing.

And despite our modern image of Hitler being a ******* idiot and being the sole reason Germany lost the war, much of the Nazi efforts early successes was due in large part because of Hitler's political decisions or if not, at the very least it was because of who Hitler chose to run operation. Even assuming Hitler had no direct control over any of the campaigns such as the Battle of France, he was the one who initiated those campaigns and it was preparations he made prior on the political side of things that enabled the Germans to conquer Poland and such.

It can be arguable it was his reliance on the military that even inspired him to make such decisions that would be "stupid" in hindsight such as the refusal to retreat from Stalingrad (which was actually a sound decision from a PR and other perspective despite our modern tendency of bashing Hitler for this decision).

If there is one thing that explains it all, Hitler was called a gifted tactician not only by a few modern history books I came across but even by at least one of his contemporary subservient generals and I seen at least a few sources where he came up with innovative tactics that played a role in the success of Blitzkrieg and even directly for a few battles;to be specific at least a few sources stated Hitler was the one who brought up to the German military using gliders during the siege of Belgium's fortress Fort Eben-Emael and I even found one that stated it was Hitler himself who pointed to some of Fort Eben-Emael weakpoints and positions.

Of course in the gist of things Hitler did not really direct the actual batles themselves and was more focused on the politics side of the wars to help hte military.

I will just leave it here. I already hold the opinion Hitler is barely Scorpionic at all and people would have to rely on pop history and mainstream media to believe that Hitler totally matches Scorpio Ascendant. However I do am curious if whatever Scorpionic traits in Hitler's personality (specifically in his politics and administration) have to deal with having his Lot of Administration in Scorpio? On the politics side Hitler really was Scorpio based on what I read.

Re: Adolf Hitler and Lot of Administration in Scorpio

Darth MI said:

Some of you who's been following the Adolf Hitler threads around here have seen me and Sworm repeatedly state not only is it ludicrous to claim Hitler had Scorpio Ascendant for reasons stated in that thread, we both know based on historical facts Hitler's personality outside of propaganda and popular image was Venusian to the core.

However I've been exploring the more subtle nuances of Hitler's chart lately

and

I learned within the Arabic Parts,

he had his Lot of Administrators and Ministers in Scorpio.

While Hitler taken as a whole was definitely not Scorpionic; even assuming the Ascendant is merely a social mask he cannot be Scorpio because he was far too charmy and extroverted in his public image.

However as we know his popular image in history was that he was an aggressive militarist who glorified war and supported complete control of the government and he was quite paranoid as a person when he was a furor.

Although deeper studies sort of subverts this image, as a whole as far as being leader of Germany he indeed matches this stereotypical image that is often associated with dictators who had Scorpio Ascendant.

I am wondering; can this all be attributed to having his Arabic Part of Administration in Scorpio? I won't go into deep biographic and historical details here because surprisingly he wasn't as militarist as we tend to think of him and his view on military tend to be more pragmatic (so I wasn't surprised at all to learn his Part of Armies is in Capricorn).

But even taking into account real biographic and historical sources, as far as ruling Germany goes specifically in the domestic politics sector, he was as Scorpio as a president could be. He was not against arresting random citizens simply because he felt they were plotting against him even with lack of proof and much of his political maneuvers revolved heavily around the military; it can be argued because of Germany's military successes is what made him remain in power so long even by the time the tides of the war was changing.

And despite our modern image of Hitler being a ******* idiot and being the sole reason Germany lost the war, much of the Nazi efforts early successes was due in large part because of Hitler's political decisions or if not, at the very least it was because of who Hitler chose to run operation. Even assuming Hitler had no direct control over any of the campaigns such as the Battle of France, he was the one who initiated those campaigns and it was preparations he made prior on the political side of things that enabled the Germans to conquer Poland and such.

It can be arguable it was his reliance on the military that even inspired him to make such decisions that would be "stupid" in hindsight such as the refusal to retreat from Stalingrad (which was actually a sound decision from a PR and other perspective despite our modern tendency of bashing Hitler for this decision).

If there is one thing that explains it all, Hitler was called a gifted tactician not only by a few modern history books I came across but even by at least one of his contemporary subservient generals and I seen at least a few sources where he came up with innovative tactics that played a role in the success of Blitzkrieg and even directly for a few battles;to be specific at least a few sources stated Hitler was the one who brought up to the German military using gliders during the siege of Belgium's fortress Fort Eben-Emael and I even found one that stated it was Hitler himself who pointed to some of Fort Eben-Emael weakpoints and positions.

Of course in the gist of things Hitler did not really direct the actual batles themselves and was more focused on the politics side of the wars to help hte military.

I will just leave it here. I already hold the opinion Hitler is barely Scorpionic at all and people would have to rely on pop history and mainstream media to believe that Hitler totally matches Scorpio Ascendant. However I do am curious if whatever Scorpionic traits in Hitler's personality (specifically in his politics and administration) have to deal with having his Lot of Administration in Scorpio? On the politics side Hitler really was Scorpio based on what I read.

Click to expand...

Keep in mind that Arabic Parts require a completely reliable official time of birth

Darth MI said:

I already hold the opinion Hitler is barely Scorpionic at all and people would have to rely on pop history and mainstream media to believe that Hitler totally matches Scorpio Ascendant.

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Oh, the very idea that "pop history and mainstream media" somehow support the idea that Hitler had any rising sign at all over another.

Or that Scorpio Risings are somehow shy and never charming.

Scorpio888 said:

Oh, the very idea that "pop history and mainstream media" somehow support the idea that Hitler had any rising sign at all over another.

Or that Scorpio Risings are somehow shy and never charming.

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Lol I'm still waiting on that birth time for his Scorpio Ascendant. Tell us that and we don't even have to turn to "pop history and the mainstream media" or silly personality descriptions from signs. Quit holding out on us.

Scorpio888 said:

Or that Scorpio Risings are somehow shy and never charming.

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You do have a point there. Some Scorpio rising people are very charming and easy to be around.

To be honest, I don't think you can determine someone's ascendant just from looking at them or their personality. Although you do have a 1-in-12 chance of getting it right, or better if you have an approximate range.

If we don't have an accurate birth time, then there's no way to resolve the debate. There will always be people who think he's Libra ascendant, and people who think he's Scorpio ascendant.

I'm not a believer in rectification. I pretty much think that if they record the time incorrectly, that completely ruins the astrology and makes it impossible to cast an accurate chart. That's why I believe we need to push hospitals and other such places to record these times more accurately.

Scorpio888 said:

Oh, the very idea that "pop history and mainstream media" somehow support the idea that Hitler had any rising sign at all over another.

Or that Scorpio Risings are somehow shy and never charming.

Click to expand...

Have you even read my most recent post?

I was referring to a placement in Hitler's natal that is in SCORPIO!

Now I will be the first one to admit I am new to Arabic Parts and this specific element of astrology is so obscure not much is known about them and they are barely used by moderns.

However it just provides a possible explanation why Hitler gives off a somewhat Scorpio vibe (at least when it came to his serious politics) if the Libran birth time is 100% accurate and under the notion he is Venusian.

Its also taking a look at who Adolf Hitler is beyond the circular natal chart and making discoveries beyond what everyone else here like Sworm already did.

sworm09 said:

Lol I'm still waiting on that birth time for his Scorpio Ascendant. Tell us that and we don't even have to turn to "pop history and the mainstream media" or silly personality descriptions from signs. Quit holding out on us.

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I am curious sworm in your opinion how does Lot of Administration goes into Hitler's chart? Even the baptism certificate that confirms Hitler as Libra Asc states its in Scorpio?

Do you think its a possible explanation why he gives up a somewhat Scorpio energy (at least in politics) and the placement in the chart why people keep insisting why he's Scorpio Asc despite the contrary both in birth times and in actual biographical information as Hitler being actually Libran?

You already know I am 100% sure Hitler is Venusian to the core but his approach to politics and the way he administered Germany is one big exception. As he did acted somewhat like those silly description for Scorpio in his policies towards ruling Germany from arresting potential opponents that included people who don't give a **** about politics to putting such security measures that shown extreme paranoia such as having hundreds of bodyguard around a hotel he would sleep in to his extreme militarism.

Lets not even later get into Lot of Armies which in Hitler's chart is in Capricorn.

Darth MI said:

Have you even read my most recent post?

I was referring to a placement in Hitler's natal that is in SCORPIO!

Now I will be the first one to admit
I am new to Arabic Parts
and this specific element of astrology is so obscure
not much is known about them
and they are barely used by moderns.

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Traditional astrologers are familiar with Arabic Parts

and since you have stated Arabic Parts are 'barely used by moderns'

then
clearly you won't find answers on this particular section of the forum

HOWEVER

there is a Traditional Astrology Board http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=92

Darth MI said:

However it just provides a possible explanation why Hitler gives off a somewhat Scorpio vibe (at least when it came to his serious politics) if the Libran birth time is 100% accurate and under the notion he is Venusian.

Its also taking a look at who Adolf Hitler is beyond the circular natal chart and making discoveries beyond what everyone else here like Sworm already did.

I am curious sworm in your opinion how does Lot of Administration goes into Hitler's chart? Even the baptism certificate that confirms Hitler as Libra Asc states its in Scorpio?

Do you think its a possible explanation why he gives up a somewhat Scorpio energy (at least in politics) and the placement in the chart why people keep insisting why he's Scorpio Asc despite the contrary both in birth times and in actual biographical information as Hitler being actually Libran?

You already know I am 100% sure Hitler is Venusian to the core but his approach to politics and the way he administered Germany is one big exception. As he did acted somewhat like those silly description for Scorpio in his policies towards ruling Germany from arresting potential opponents that included people who don't give a **** about politics to putting such security measures that shown extreme paranoia such as having hundreds of bodyguard around a hotel he would sleep in to his extreme militarism.

Lets not even later get into Lot of Armies
which in Hitler's chart is in Capricorn.

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You have already stated that Arabic Parts are 'barely used by moderns'
so for Traditional answers then post your question on the Traditional Board

alternatively
read http://www.skyscript.co.uk/alparts.html

and

A guide to DELINEATION OF ARABIC PARTS http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1526&sid=a3b8355aac689629f0701a916daaeb35

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=132&sid=7cf8fe299691be3c7e271e9470919327

In the case of Hitler, I think his rising sign isn't as typical as we think. He is certainly much more his Sun sign - Taurus, as he liked routine and was certainly stubborn, all these negative character traits which taureans can have, sometimes Imagine only a head of State eating afternoon for afternoon the same apple cake and living more for the representation than for essential things in the life!
And he was not a vegetarian by altruism, but only because he was disgusted by raw meat and its stinking. His guests at table ate meat as well and every time he tent to disgust them.

Darth MI said:

I am curious sworm in your opinion how does Lot of Administration goes into Hitler's chart? Even the baptism certificate that confirms Hitler as Libra Asc states its in Scorpio?

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I'm not really one to use Lots, so I can't really say I have an opinion.

Darth MI said:

Do you think its a possible explanation why he gives up a somewhat Scorpio energy (at least in politics) and the placement in the chart why people keep insisting why he's Scorpio Asc despite the contrary both in birth times and in actual biographical information as Hitler being actually Libran?

Click to expand...

I think it's Saturn. Saturn is highly elevated, Saturn is Almuten of the Ascendant, Saturn squares the chart ruler. Saturn has a pervading influence that's hard to deny in this chart. Saturn is in detriment and afflicted, and you don't want something like that emphasized. Saturn in such a position (ESPECIALLY aspecting the debilitated Mars) speaks of heavy handed cruelty and a domineering nature while the square to Venus makes it more calculating. That's the difference between being a raving madman and an apathetic politician (which Hitler definitely was).

If you use Outer planets, Uranus is also emphasized by being alone on one side of the chart. Uranus is retrograde and it could indicate someone who is rowdy or turbulent. Within the context of the above, it's a calculated, apathetic, and even destructive turbulence. Due to Uranus being cadent, Saturn is more open than Uranus, though the turbulent nature is there. It receives sort of a funnel into Mercury who is angular, ala his speeches.

His more reserved traits come largely from Saturn. Venus ruling the Ascendant proposes a gentle nature, but much more controlled and cold than warm and cuddly.

I think that these factors are what make people see him as being "Scorpio-like".

Darth MI said:

You already know I am 100% sure Hitler is Venusian to the core but his approach to politics and the way he administered Germany is one big exception. As he did acted somewhat like those silly description for Scorpio in his policies towards ruling Germany from arresting potential opponents that included people who don't give a **** about politics to putting such security measures that shown extreme paranoia such as having hundreds of bodyguard around a hotel he would sleep in to his extreme militarism.

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That sounds a like Saturn; structure, structure, structure at any cost and any change that would be made would be done in a calculating, careful manner.

sworm09 said:

I'm not really one to use Lots, so I can't really say I have an opinion.



I think it's Saturn. Saturn is highly elevated, Saturn is Almuten of the Ascendant, Saturn squares the chart ruler. Saturn has a pervading influence that's hard to deny in this chart. Saturn is in detriment and afflicted, and you don't want something like that emphasized. Saturn in such a position (ESPECIALLY aspecting the debilitated Mars) speaks of heavy handed cruelty and a domineering nature while the square to Venus makes it more calculating. That's the difference between being a raving madman and an apathetic politician (which Hitler definitely was).

If you use Outer planets, Uranus is also emphasized by being alone on one side of the chart. Uranus is retrograde and it could indicate someone who is rowdy or turbulent. Within the context of the above, it's a calculated, apathetic, and even destructive turbulence. Due to Uranus being cadent, Saturn is more open than Uranus, though the turbulent nature is there. It receives sort of a funnel into Mercury who is angular, ala his speeches.

His more reserved traits come largely from Saturn. Venus ruling the Ascendant proposes a gentle nature, but much more controlled and cold than warm and cuddly.

I think that these factors are what make people see him as being "Scorpio-like".



That sounds a like Saturn; structure, structure, structure at any cost and any change that would be made would be done in a calculating, careful manner.

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Saturnrules Liba in day chars yes.Remember he was a war hero in WWI too
venus-mats loves war and strenght