Ancient Capricorn was a water sign

Whoam1

Well-known member
So that would mean Traditionally that Domiciled Venus in Libra is in Opposition (at least by Sign) to a Debilitated Saturn in Aries.

However Saturn is in actualy Cetus. Which is the nature of Saturn although pointing towards parralels to the more watery parts of Capricorn.

Note Neptune is the one who sent Cetus, Saturn is in Cetus and Neptune is in Capricorn. (Saturn would be domicile? Or would this be like mutual rulership...)

According to Ptolemy this constellation is like Saturn. It is said to cause laziness and idleness, but to confer an emotional and charitable nature, with the ability to command, especially in war. Makes one amiable, prudent, happy by sea and land, and helps to recover lost goods.

I could see myself as being Saturn in Cetus if it was not for the lazy nature and the fact I loose my own stuff so don't expect me to recover anything else.

Cetus would still be opposing Libra except it's below the elliptic.
 
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CapAquaPis

Well-known member
As the same realization for me. Aquarius the moisture in the air if you will, Capricorn as David says, the oceans of the earth.

Capricorn is also the opposite of Cancer, a water sign. Capricorn belongs to the wet group including Pisces (another water sign). And Pluto is thought to rule Capricorn as well Scorpio (indeed a water sign) in revised modern astrology. Capricorn is the sign of aging and death, by the planet Saturn and Pluto is the same thing, although for Scorpio. Capricorn is the last quarter of the astrological zodiac year, in the last 10 days of December, the last month of the Gregorian or solar calendar in western/Christian culture. To have it a water sign shouldn't be related to turning old or dry metaphorically, not replenished or renewed, you find symbolically in both water and air signs.

I didn't know Capricorn can be the sign of India (in the thread's 2nd page), so I learned something new in astrology and geopolitical (locational) astrology - its independence day is on the week of January 18-24? 1947 or 48? They became a republic on January 26, 1950 - the sun in Vedic astrology is in Capricorn to them, Aquarius to us westerners. And the shape of India resembles the symbol of Capricorn, WOW...this is fascinating. India is an ancient civilization, a subcontinent (seas on 3 sides) and despite economic booms in the early 21st century (India is somewhat a global scientific leader, a Capricornian attribute), lots of poverty and hardship for that huge nation.
 

david starling

Well-known member
The Ancient Greeks kept the Goat fish Constellational image, but also associated Capricorn with Pan, their god of the woodlands, meadows, pastures, and mountains. But he was half man, half goat, not just a four legged goat.
 

david starling

Well-known member
sign3_3.jpg
xcapricorn_300x300.jpg.pagespeed.ic.OJkWxaHDtg.jpg

Pan was very "earthy", and Capricorn has that trait as well. Pan could excite physical passion with his music, and the loss of emotional control, which became known as "panic".
 

Whoam1

Well-known member
No. Here is my Saturn about one degree longitudinally away from mu Cetus, and about 3 degrees latitudinal north.
 

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miquar

Well-known member
The constellation and sign are two different things.

The constellation Capricorn was in a part of the sky anciently called "the sea," which included Aquarius, Pisces, Cetus, and Eridanus.

Capricorn is on the edge of this group, which probably account's for the sea goat's mammal front half and fish hind quarters.

One book you might enjoy if you haven't seen it already is Gavin White, Babylonian Star Lore.

Hi Waybread

I'm interested in this way of grouping Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces together. Please could you say any more about it, or point me to something online I could read? Do you know how the rest of the sky was divided up and the names given?

Best wishes

Miquar
 

miquar

Well-known member
In Hellenistic astrology it was also known as a moist/watery sign alongside Cancer, Aquarius and Pisces - Dorotheus, Ptolemy, Hephaistio, Palchus and others.

Hi petosiris.

I don't know much about Hellenistic astrology and I'm interested in this way of grouping the signs. I was aware that water and air are often referred to as moist elements, with fire and earth referred to as dry (and that fire and air are said to be 'hot' while earth and water are said to be 'cold'), but haven't come across this way of grouping Cancer, Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces. I'd appreciate anything else you could add - such as how the other signs are grouped and labelled, and about the use of the word moist other than to describe air and water, and the use of the word water other than to describe the signs Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces. Or any further reading online.

Best wishes

Miquar
 

david starling

Well-known member
Hi Waybread

I'm interested in this way of grouping Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces together. Please could you say any more about it, or point me to something online I could read? Do you know how the rest of the sky was divided up and the names given?

Best wishes

Miquar

I'm not waybread:biggrin:, but I can tell you that when the Constellational images were recorded in Ancient Babylonia around 2000 B.C.E., the Sun's position at the Winter Solstice in that part of the world was in the vicinity of the Constellations depicted as the Seagoat (Capricorn), and the Aquarian image of water being poured out. This was the rainy season, which continued until Spring, and therefore also included the last month of their Winter season, now known as Tropical Pisces.
 

Whoam1

Well-known member
Hi Waybread

I'm interested in this way of grouping Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces together. Please could you say any more about it, or point me to something online I could read? Do you know how the rest of the sky was divided up and the names given?

Best wishes

Miquar

They are in a part of the sky called the Sea (here also lies constellations such as Cetus) as such these constellations have watery/moist undertones (a goat-fish/serpent, a dude holding a bucket of water,two fish, and a sea monster).

Astrology used to be biased on constellations, I myself practice this old way [I view the sky itself less as I can only see certain parts of the constellations, however using technology I am able to view the constellations in my chart, I use the degrees of the zodiac to form aspects and I use multi-methodal techniques when reading my chart. [Note I use Ophicious as a part of Scorpio and Cetus as a part of Aries <but Saturn is domicile here not at fall>]

Sun and A.C. in sag
Moon in Leo
Neptune, Uranus, Mars in Capy
Jupiter (on IC) in Pisces [dom sign]
Saturn in Cetus [Aries nature but domicile]
Venus in Libra
Mercury/Pluto in Ophicious [Scorpio]
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Hi petosiris.

I don't know much about Hellenistic astrology and I'm interested in this way of grouping the signs. I was aware that water and air are often referred to as moist elements, with fire and earth referred to as dry (and that fire and air are said to be 'hot' while earth and water are said to be 'cold'), but haven't come across this way of grouping Cancer, Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces. I'd appreciate anything else you could add - such as how the other signs are grouped and labelled, and about the use of the word moist other than to describe air and water, and the use of the word water other than to describe the signs Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces. Or any further reading online.

Best wishes

Miquar
Right. I think there are a few depictions in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance
where Capricorn is imagined only as a goat, no doubt influenced by the triplicities approach
where it is earthy.

As far as I am aware
all ancient depictions of the constellation included the fish part
and many of the authors say it is moist or amphibian
.

Even in the glyph for Capricorn used by modern astrologers it is obvious that its lower ''9'' part
is related to the fish symbolism.
sign3_3.jpg
xcapricorn_300x300.jpg.pagespeed.ic.OJkWxaHDtg.jpg



hieroglyph.png
 

david starling

Well-known member
I'm not waybread:biggrin:, but I can tell you that when the Constellational images were recorded in Ancient Babylonia around 2000 B.C.E., the Sun's position at the Winter Solstice in that part of the world was in the vicinity of the Constellations depicted as the Seagoat (Capricorn), and the Aquarian image of water being poured out. This was the rainy season, which continued until Spring, and therefore also included the last month of their Winter season, now known as Tropical Pisces.

Forgot to mention, that, due to a slow, but constant shift in the Sun's position at the beginning of the seasons relative to the Constellations, the Constellation Aquarius is now the Sun's location during the last month of Winter in the Northern Hemisphere. This phenomenon is known as "Precession". Siderealism considers the Constellational images to be intrinsic to the star-clusters themselves (as viewed from Earth); whereas, Tropicalists can connect them to to the Seasons, since both when the first organized Zodiac in Ancient Babylonia was recorded using one type of Astronomical measurement, and when the Greco-Romans finalized it about 2000 years later, using another, those images did have seasonal correspondence. Now, the Constellations have separated from the Tropical Signs due to Precession, but, Tropicalists feel justified in continuing to use the imagery to describe their seasonally-based Signs. Because, again, both when first formally recorded in an organized fashion in Ancient Babylonia around 2000 B.C.E., and when finalized during the Greco-Roman period around 100 B.C.E. The Zodiacal constellations DID correlate to the Northern Hemispheric, Tropical seasons.
 
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miquar

Well-known member
Thanks for all the responses to my post. I only use the tropical zodiac but I believe that each sign carries the same basic meaning in each zodiac, and that each zodiac brings a different 'twist'. I do think that there is a watery side to Aquarius and Capricorn and this is why I'm interested in these ancient ways of grouping constellations once they were reduced to twelve in number, or any ways of grouping the twelve signs in the tropical zodiac, or any sidereal, zodiac.

After reading the replies, I'm wondering if the term 'the sea' was still used to refer to Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces? And also about the term 'moist' being used for Capricorn and Aquarius as well as two of the water signs - Cancer and Pisces - as noted by petosiris.

Thanks again for the input. Best wishes

Miquar
 

david starling

Well-known member
Thanks for all the responses to my post. I only use the tropical zodiac but I believe that each sign carries the same basic meaning in each zodiac, and that each zodiac brings a different 'twist'. I do think that there is a watery side to Aquarius and Capricorn and this is why I'm interested in these ancient ways of grouping constellations once they were reduced to twelve in number, or any ways of grouping the twelve signs in the tropical zodiac, or any sidereal, zodiac.

After reading the replies, I'm wondering if the term 'the sea' was still used to refer to Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces? And also about the term 'moist' being used for Capricorn and Aquarius as well as two of the water signs - Cancer and Pisces - as noted by petosiris.

Thanks again for the input. Best wishes

Miquar

The Moon rules Cancer, and relates that Sign to the Sea because the Moon affects the tides. There are 3 Earth-signs, and 3 realms of Earth--solid, liquid, and vapor, meaning "Terra Firma", Earth's waters, and Earth's atmosphere. So, we have the solid ("fixed" in Alchemy meant solidified), land-dwelling animal, the Ox, or Bull for one Earth-sign, the Seagoat for Earth's waters, and a winged figure for Virgo and Earth's atmosphere. Capricorn is the materialistic Water-sign, and Virgo is the materialistic Air-sign. Notice that Virgo is considered by most Tropicalists to be a thinking, analytical Sign, which is in the realm of Thought, which pertains to the Element of Air. Capricorn is extremely emotional in its own way, which pertains to the Element Water.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Thanks for all the responses to my post. I only use the tropical zodiac but I believe that each sign carries the same basic meaning in each zodiac, and that each zodiac brings a different 'twist'. I do think that there is a watery side to Aquarius and Capricorn and this is why I'm interested in these ancient ways of grouping constellations once they were reduced to twelve in number, or any ways of grouping the twelve signs in the tropical zodiac, or any sidereal, zodiac.

After reading the replies, I'm wondering if the term 'the sea' was still used to refer to Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces? And also about the term 'moist' being used for Capricorn and Aquarius as well as two of the water signs - Cancer and Pisces - as noted by petosiris.

Thanks again for the input. Best wishes


Miquar
following EXTRACTS are from Vettius VALENS the ANTHOLOGY book one page five
FREE online at
http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/vettius%20valens%20entire.pdf


CAPRICORN is temperate on both sides

By parts it is as follows: the first parts are destructive
the second moist, stormy, changeable
the middle parts are fiery; the last destructive.


AQUARIUS is the celestial sign which is masculine, solid, anthropomorphic,
somewhat damp
,
single.

It is mute, quite cold, free, upward-trending, feminizing, unchanging
.......generous (because of <this sign’s> flow of water)
uncontrollable.
As a whole this sign is wet. :smile:
By part it is as follows: the first parts are wet
the upper parts fiery, the lower worthless and useless.


PISCES is the celestial sign which is feminine, moist, quite wet
 

david starling

Well-known member
I've read that Cronus (Saturn) was first a sea-god, but after he deposed his father Ouranos :)uranus:) he controlled the entirety of Earth. After Cronus was overthrown, the son of Cronus, Poseidon (Neptune) took over rulership of the Sea.
 

petosiris

Banned
Forgot to mention, that, due to a slow, but constant shift in the Sun's position at the beginning of the seasons relative to the Constellations, the Constellation Aquarius is now the Sun's location during the last month of Winter in the Northern Hemisphere. This phenomenon is known as "Precession". Siderealism considers the Constellational images to be intrinsic to the star-clusters themselves (as viewed from Earth); whereas, Tropicalists can connect them to to the Seasons, since both when the first organized Zodiac in Ancient Babylonia was recorded using one type of Astronomical measurement, and when the Greco-Romans finalized it about 2000 years later, using another, those images did have seasonal correspondence. Now, the Constellations have separated from the Tropical Signs due to Precession, but, Tropicalists feel justified in continuing to use the imagery to describe their seasonally-based Signs. Because, again, both when first formally recorded in an organized fashion in Ancient Babylonia around 2000 B.C.E., and when finalized during the Greco-Roman period around 100 B.C.E. The Zodiacal constellations DID correlate to the Northern Hemispheric, Tropical seasons.

So they correlated for 2000 years? You do know that is the rate of precession it takes a whole sign to get over another?
 
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