Astrology and Narcissism

david starling said:

Would the version of the fictional character Sherlock Holmes called "Sherlock", played by Benedict Cumberbatch, be considered a Narcissist, by your definition? Assuming you've seen the show, of course! There seems to be some implied admiration for his self-admitted "sociopathic" personality, but Narcissism has other specific characteristics.

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He's so an Aquarius.

How about this for a Narcissistic expression: "I worship the ground I walk upon."

AppLeo said:

He's so an Aquarius.

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Both Aquarius and Leo seem to be somehow involved, maybe in combination.

david starling said:

Would the version of the fictional character Sherlock Holmes called "Sherlock", played by Benedict Cumberbatch, be considered a Narcissist, by your definition? Assuming you've seen the show, of course! There seems to be some implied self-admiration for his own self-admitted "sociopathic" personality, but Narcissism has other specific characteristics.

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David,

Great show, fabulous actor.

To understand the link between astrology and psychology, it is important to understand the psychology. Celebrities and fictional characters are a great learning tool. "Sherlock" loves to call himself a "high functioning sociopath".
Is that an accurate diagnosis or not?

Can you make a guess as to "Sherlock" diagnosis, based upon the DMS criteria posted above?
Does "Sherlock" meet any of the criteria for either NPD or ASPD?

Keep in mind the essential features of each dx as well as the specific criteria.
It is a fairly straightforward process. You just go down the list and determine whether or not the subject exhibits that behavior. The DSM states how many of the criteria are needed for a dx.

Julia

The all-time work of fiction regarding Narcissism might just be "The Picture of Dorian Gray", by Oscar Wilde! AppLeo should read it, if he hasn't already.

Gregory House in House M.D the tv show is either an Aquarius or Gemini and he is definitely a narcissist. In the show, he's been referred to as arrogant, and has been called narcissistic in season 6.

AppLeo said:

Gregory House in House M.D the tv show is either an Aquarius or Gemini and he is definitely a narcissist. In the show, he's been referred to as arrogant, and has been called narcissistic in season 6.

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House was deliberately modeled after Sherlock Holmes, including his address number! "House" is taken from the old English meaning of "Holme", and Wilson is his Watson.
Question--should blatant arrogance be considered a definite Narcissistic personality trait? Would psychologists agree with that? (Not saying that every arrogant person is necessarily a Narcissist.)
Here's an old joke: The psychiatrist says to his patient, "I have good news--you're not suffering from an Inferiority Complex. You actually ARE inferior!" A Narcissist would reverse that, regarding what others would consider to be his (or her) Superiority Complex.

david starling said:

House was deliberately modeled after Sherlock Holmes, including his address number! "House" is taken from the old English meaning of "Holme", and Wilson is his Watson.
Question--should blatant arrogance be considered a definite Narcissistic personality trait? Would psychologists agree with that? (Not saying that every arrogant person is necessarily a Narcissist.)
Here's an old joke: The psychiatrist says to his patient, "I have good news--you're not suffering from an Inferiority Complex. You actually ARE inferior!" A Narcissist would reverse that, regarding what others would consider to be his (or her) Superiority Complex.

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Hi David,

House is another great fictional character to study. I love this show. I had no idea that House was based on Sherlock Holmes, but it makes sense.

You are discussing the finer points of narcissism, and the distinctions between traits.

If you look at the DSM list of Narcissistic Personality traits you will most certainly see arrogance listed as one of the criteria. However to be diagnosed as NPD, a person must display at least 5 of the traits listed. Does House meet the criteria for NPD?

And yes your comment about grandiosity (superiority complex) vs arrogance is an important distinction. The narcissist has a belief in his or her superior talents without commensurate achievements. A person could be brilliant and accomplished, and be arrogant about it, but not grandiose if they are accurate about what they are saying.

So how many of the traits below does House demonstrate?
Or by Cumberbatch in Sherlock?

Symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder

In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:

• Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
• Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
• Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
• Requires excessive admiration
• Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
• Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
• Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
• Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
• Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Julia

The fictional character "Sherlock" (played by Benedict Cumberbatch), calls himself a sociopath.

Is this an accurate label?

Look at the traits below and make a determination!


DSM 5 Antisocial Personality Disorder

A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three or more of the following:

• failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
  
• deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure; (please note that that the use of deception in a professional and legal capacity would not meet this criterion)
  
• impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
  
• irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
  
• reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
  
• consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
  
• lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.
  

Julia

According to my count, neither Sherlock nor House qualify psychologically as Narcissists. Dorian Gray does though.
Here's an expression that applies to a Narcissist, according to your list of criteria: A Narcissist is truly a Legend in his own mind!

david starling said:

According to my count, neither Sherlock nor House qualify psychologically as Narcissists.

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Yes exactly.
And neither are sociopaths.
So Sherlock's self description is incorrect.
And yes on Dorian Gray.

david starling said:

Here's an expression that applies to a Narcissist, according to your list of criteria: A Narcissist is truly a Legend in his own mind!

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Exactly.

Another point about astrology and psychology:

Psychology sees human traits on a continuum, a trait can be functional and healthy or become extreme and cross a line into pathology.

Astrology symbolism is the same in this regard. The signs and planets represent traits that can be expressed in either a good or bad way, dark or light. That is one of the reasons I see psychology and astrology as quite compatible.

Julia

The point of the discussion I think is to have a good understanding of narcissism.
And then the traits of narcissism can be listed for the purpose of linking those traits
to astrological markers.

And someone does not have to be full blown NPD to be of interest in chart interpretation.

david starling said:

According to my count, neither Sherlock nor House qualify psychologically as Narcissists. Dorian Gray does though.
Here's an expression that applies to a Narcissist, according to your list of criteria: A Narcissist is truly a Legend in his own mind!

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I think your count is wrong.

AppLeo said:

I think your count is wrong.

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How so? They're arrogant and egotistical, but their superior abilities are real, and the psychological definition has them as delusional. Also, they may be rude and insensitive to the feelings of others, but their real goal, even when they're breaking the rules, and even the law, is usually benevolent. Both sociopaths and narcissists aren't supposed to care what happens to anyone but themselves.

david starling said:

How so? They're arrogant and egotistical, but their superior abilities are real, and the psychological definition has them as delusional. Also, they may be rude and insensitive to the feelings of others, but their real goal, even when they're breaking the rules, and even the law, is usually benevolent. Both sociopaths and narcissists aren't supposed to care what happens to anyone but themselves.

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Doctor house was diagnosed with narcissism in the 6th season. I have evidence.

david starling said:

Both Hillary and Trump are Narcissists!

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Trump has Leo Rising; Sun, Uranus, and NN conjunct in 10th House.

Hillary is just–forget her.

MisterPlatypus said:

You need to fit more than just 1 of these characteristics. And they also have to be confirmed by someone educated in the field and not playing armchair psychologist, especially since people are claiming that have a sense of self-love, or having the slightest sense of entitlement, is full blown narcissism. By many of the poster's logic here, nearly everyone has NPD.

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I think everyone does, to some degree. Either that, or really low self-esteem. I have strong 1st House placements, which give me self-confidence and obviates against low self-esteem. But I can see some Narcissistic tendencies in myself. And I enjoy being around people who feel like they "own the world". Psychologists are very serious about actually diagnosing people with a "disorder". So, I understand your disagreement about picking just one or two characteristics and drawing a conclusion. Btw,given your great username, is there a chance you could add a cool platypus avatar?

david starling said:

MR.Platypus, are there any real-life, solidly diagnosed, examples of people with advanced NPD that you know of? Maybe well-known enough for us to get a look at their Charts?

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Personally? A couple; but I strongly believe it is more due to drug abuse, or childhood trauma than other. However, there is one, who's mother is also schizophrenic. An old friend married someone with BPD. I don't feel like bothering that family any more. My friend changed (for the worst) since marrying her. So i won't be looking into her chart to see if her chart agrees with anything spoken in this thread. Drug abuse may correlate with certain placements. But, again, I don't quite have time to research at this moment; I have much more important things to take care of before I have that sort of free-time again. Economy is suffering, yo.

And I understand how hard it is to find people with NPD. People throw the term around like it is going out of fashion. People confuse borderline with Narcissism, sociopaths with NPD, even schizophrenics as NPD; hell, just not liking someone would result in someone claiming they are NPD these days. It's getting ridiculous in my opinion. So, finding opinion pieces stating certain celebrities have NPD is a fairly poor source. You're best chance is looking for those with cluster B personality disorders (or personality disorders in general) and see if there is any correlational data before looking further.

My belief in astrology is more linked to biological, environmental, and social factors rather than geometric charts. I thought it was interesting when I found some correlation of astrology and my own personality, then it got me questioning why it may have some basis. What do you think? Heck, look at geographical differences between western and eastern astrologers and how greatly they differ. I wouldn't be surprised if there is geographical influences on social behavior (well, there is but our ancestors may have been able to link that to the stars before it could be explained by sociology).

MisterPlatypus said:

Personally? A couple; but I strongly believe it is more due to drug abuse, or childhood trauma than other. However, there is one, who's mother is also schizophrenic. An old friend married someone with BPD. I don't feel like bothering that family any more. My friend changed (for the worst) since marrying her.

And I understand how hard it is to find people with NPD. People throw the term around like it is going out of fashion. People confuse borderline with Narcissism, sociopaths with NPD, even schizophrenics as NPD. So, finding opinion pieces stating certain celebrities have NPD is a fairly poor source. You're best chance is looking for those with cluster B personality disorders (or personality disorders in general) and see if there is any correlational data before looking further.

My belief in astrology is more linked to biological, environmental, and social factors rather than geometric charts.

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That's an interesting view of Astrology. Can you relate it to Chart-astrology in any way, or explain it further? Again, sounds interesting! Btw, I have a theory as to why Astrologers do poorly on those scientifically-designed tests.

AppLeo said:

Doctor house was diagnosed with narcissism in the 6th season. I have evidence.

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AppLeo,

I wouldn't rely too much on the word of Hollywood script writers and directors to make accurate clinical diagnoses. They are not interested in accuracy or credibility because that is not their job. They are coming from a place of artistic, creative drama, with a need to captivate an audience by any means possible. It serves their purpose to delve into the dark side of their character, House. And to use artistic license and exaggeration to keep the story line intriguing and interesting.

Just like in "Sherlock" the character as portrayed by Cumberbatch, calls himself a "high functioning sociopath" (a term not in the clinical lexicon by the way). This makes for an complex and thrilling TV character, but is not accurate.

I am not going to criticize Hollywood however, they are the leaders in the world entertainment industry for a reason, they do their job well. As a strong Pisces, I adore fantasy and actually prefer living there. But sometimes it is important to understand the difference between fantasy and reality.

The point of this thread is to examine the link between astrology and narcissism and I think the goal would be to stick to facts.

Julia