Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Other Astrology

Other Astrology Here, you can discuss anything else astrological that doesn't belong in the other boards. Includes medical astrology, mundane astrology, parts, sports astrology, research and development, degree symbols, fixed stars, asteroids, symbols systems, karma, and Aquarian astrology.


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Unread 07-09-2012, 02:11 AM
tsmall's Avatar
tsmall tsmall is offline
Senior Member, Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 3,114
Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

I did a forum search, and couldn't find this topic as a discussion of what the Thema is, which doesn't surprise me since it seems to belong only to the realm of traditional astrology...but I wanted to post it here because so many members seem hesitant to visit that forum.

For those who are unfamiliar with it, the Thema is mythically considered the chart of the world, and literally was historically used as a teaching tool for astrologers. In it you can find the reasons for the domicile rulers, the exaltations, the planetary joys, the nature of the aspects, sect...on and on it goes.

This pdf is a good starting point for understanding

http://www.azastrologers.org/Article...ThemaMundi.pdf

And here is one picture I found that graphically shows the Thema from the same pdf.

So, let's consider. Most astrologers (as far as I know both traditional and modern) consider Aries to be the "natural" first house. Why? Especially if Cancer rises in the Thema, that would make Cancer the real "natural" first house, ruled by the Moon, and when we think of people...how we evolved out of the sea (water), how we have always considered the Moon as the mother...this makes sense to me. Leo as the natural second house? What does the second signify? The resources that support the body (ASC/1st?) Further, ancient astrology considered that the Moon did represent the body...again this makes sense if cancer rises.

I don't have a lot of time right now (hey, three girls and a zoo and all that) but am interested to hear any other members ideas on this?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg NoblehorseThemaMundi_img_0.jpg (48.6 KB, 575 views)

__________________
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." ~Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to tsmall For This Useful Post:
TamaraL (09-02-2014)
  #2  
Unread 07-09-2012, 03:05 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 51,052
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
For those who are unfamiliar with it, the Thema is mythically considered the chart of the world, and literally was historically used as a teaching tool for astrologers. In it you can find the reasons for the domicile rulers, the exaltations, the planetary joys, the nature of the aspects, sect...on and on it goes.
fwiw, I'm no expert, however I recall reading amongst Hellenistic material that the Thema Mundi was indeed a kind of a mythical horoscope that was used in Hellenistic astrology and it apparently shows the supposed positions of the seven visible planets (including the Sun and Moon) at the beginning of the universe
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
So, let's consider. Most astrologers (as far as I know both traditional and modern) consider Aries to be the "natural" first house. Why? Especially if Cancer rises in the Thema, that would make Cancer the real "natural" first house, ruled by the Moon, and when we think of people...how we evolved out of the sea (water), how we have always considered the Moon as the mother...this makes sense to me. Leo as the natural second house? What does the second signify? The resources that support the body (ASC/1st?) Further, ancient astrology considered that the Moon did represent the body...again this makes sense if cancer rises
This is a most interesting theory tsmall! Clearly the Moon/Mother/Cancer makes sense as the 1st House
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
I don't have a lot of time right now (hey, three girls and a zoo and all that) but am interested to hear any other members ideas on this?
A zoo? Not an easy occupationt! Plus three girls? OK... you're busy!

dr. farr's historical knowledge is voluminous
so he may well have more information on this subject for us all
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Unread 07-09-2012, 03:50 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

Yes, the Thema was the esoteric HERMETIC fundamental model of "how manifestation develops", being ultimately based upon the concept of emanations, which is at the root of hermetic metaphysics (which also influenced kabbalistic thought as well) The Thema also "illustrates" the entry and exits of "souls", to and from the manifested plane of the universe, "souls" entering through Cancer and exiting through Capricorn (1st house entry, 7th house, ie "descendant house", exit; note that Manilius ascribed the 7th house to "dangers" in his scema of the Circle of the Athla)

Aries was considered (in ancient hermetic thought) the proximate starting point in the flow of energies/powers organizing and vitalizing and maintaining the manifested universe, while Cancer was considered as the fundamental starting point regarding the ultimate flow of SPIRIT into the manifesting material Universe.

This is, of course, only a very superficial comment regarding the Thema-there is really a great deal more involved here. It is, in fact, when more completely elaborated and understood, the hermetic schema of the essential nature Reality at its various levels of manifestations, and is the hermetic counterpart to the more well known kabbalistic Tree of Life....
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Unread 07-09-2012, 09:19 AM
piercethevale's Avatar
piercethevale piercethevale is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alta California
Posts: 8,246
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

I just wrote about the "Thema Mundi" in another thread on the 'God Particle, Discovered Today" thread in another sub forum.
I won't reiterate what i wrote there as i can see that most of you...if not all...are also currently reading and contributing to that thread also.
What I'd like to point out is the, relatively, recent revelation I've had concerning what Dane Rudhyar kept 'harping on about'...r.e. "All Paths of True Discipleship Begin in Virgo" and the subsequent analysis I did which led to my satisfaction that indeed it does, and my subsequent development of a rectification of practice of the school of 'Esoteric Astrology' associated in part, if not wholly, with the Theosophists.... that is to say: "yes, the Zodiac can [and maybe it should be] read in the 'opposite direction' " ... but not from Aries 01* or Pisces 30* as they suggest or insist but rather from Virgo 30*.
Read my thread in this same sub-forum I titled "A Runic Explanation of the Zodiac", please if you haven't already...for my demonstration that the Biblical Book of Genesis can be illustrated through that understanding I give in that thread.

Now, recall that "In the Beginning [after the part 'All was Darkness'] there was the "WORD" ,,,the "WORD" which in one sense is sort of the Mother of us all... and toss in [if you'd like to] the Hebrew Kabbalists' concepts of the 'Bahir', the 'Sephirot' , the 'Ohr', the Tzimtzum...but please do so particularly as to a very interesting Hebrew word and term, Chalal and Chalal panui ...only for the reason as to that it looks suspiciously a lot like 'Chalice' ["Holy Grail"...for which I've been harboring the suspicion that it was a cloaked reference to the "Holy Mother, the Virgin, Mary." or maybe meant, as some of the more recent theorists concerning matters such as the 'Di Vinci Code' and its' ilk have been championing the notion that it refers to the 'Bloodline' of the House of David or that House through all since Hannah, mother of Mary or what ever variation on that is presently the "Flavor of the Month", from which and to whom there are descendants...even still... [or were in the time of the legendary or mythological Camelot and King Arthur]

Now, Virgo [and by what I demonstrate in the thread "Runic"] is about a "WOMB" [a cave so to speak] and it is also a Sign ruled by Mercury and thus taking what I gave as a demonstration for reading Genesis in a different "Light" [pardon the 'pun'] ...now just add Virgo to the scenario as the representation/source for "In the beginning there was the "WORD". [and familiarize yourselves with the explanation of what the "Chalal panui" is ...being it a "WOMB" that GOD had to create first in order to create the physical universe and WHY God had to create the 'Chalal' in order to be able to do so.

In a couple few other threads I gave strong evidence to support Rabbi Dobin's mention that the force of God comes from between Capricorn and Aquarius and why Aquarius is the Ascendant for all of Creation as to the 'Big Bang'...but that also demonstrates the "Involutionary procession" through the Zodiac as is currently adhered to...albeit from Aries 01* and not Aquarius 01* as Aries 01* is viewed and interpreted as being the origin of a life form...unlike that of Aquarius 01* [and I am here referring primarily to the Sabian Symbols as the are given and defined/interpreted]

But Humankind was not intended to 'involute' into matter ...anchor in the material...the Maya...but rather, 'evolute' out of it.

So...what is IT that i'm trying to say...you might be asking if you haven't already figured it out?

That, as far as Human beings are concerned and Human astrological analysis and understanding via astrology...it is not only possible but has strong argument in favor of it that the first house should be considered to be that of Virgo and that it all runs 'Clockwise' from there.

Think about it... the first thing we as newborn babies do is communicate our awareness with a loud cry...and why would Mars be or should it be considered as to be the beginning of anything...and I mean both by symbolism as to it's order in the Solar System and the precepts associated with it. ...and certainly Virgo also makes total sense as to it's 'Traditional' associations as to a Virgin Mother ....as I can see that it can be said the the birth of the Cosmos was, in a sense, an Immaculate Conception....
Now read the Sabians in that order and tell me it doesn't make a mountain of more sense than reading from Aries 01*in the, so called, 'Traditional Manner'.
__________________
You Are A Divine Creation Of The Universe

Last edited by piercethevale; 07-09-2012 at 09:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Unread 07-09-2012, 10:48 AM
Moog's Avatar
Moog Moog is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: In The Litter Tray
Posts: 2,701
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

I think it's interesting, but I'm not sure how to practically apply this to reading astrology. Any examples?
__________________
My Chart, Tropical
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Unread 07-09-2012, 02:36 PM
piercethevale's Avatar
piercethevale piercethevale is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alta California
Posts: 8,246
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

I've never subscribed to the popular "Trad." belief of assigned Planetary rulerships to the Houses they don't make sense to me, and particularly [or at least] the Succedent Houses [I also discuss this in the "Runic" thread]. It's the attributes of the Houses themselves to which I can "hang with" as I do believe in and adhere to the concept of a Quadrant House system except for those of the Succedent Houses and all other attributes apart from the basic one of the Asc. representing "awareness, personality and appearance and that of the M.C. being representative of "HOW" one is to serve the world.. [I prefer to leave specific systems out of this discussion...if you all don't mind.] These are in accord as to what the astrologer and master of Sabian Symbology and and its' applications, Dane Rudhyar's, interpretation of the Angular cusps as the Asc., Desc., M.C. and I.C. being that of the "WHO", "WHERE-TO", ""HOW" and "WHY" of ones natal chart. Although, as some of you will no doubt notice, I have switched the one for the M.C. from "WHY" to "HOW". That is because when reading the symbols in a spiritually "Evolutionary" manner of procession [regardless of whether one begins at Aries/Pisces or Libra/Virgo] the "HOW" must always follow the "WHO" and precede the "WHERE-TO" and it also make s total sense as to 'Spiritual" matters that as the M.C. represents ones career and way in which one serves the world that it is the "HOW" of your beingness.
It doesn't make sense to me that the first House...which represents coming into life and the world...that it is below the 'Horizon of the Chart'. What is below the Horizon implicates itself to be of the realm of the sub-conscious, yes, but also the realm of sleep. We awaken from a long slumber at birth...not sink into one [Ideally, that is to say].
I made mention of some indications that these concepts that we use for constructing astrological charts have survived from a time so remote and distant now that the source and understanding has been lost to us presently and my opinion that more than likely it developed in the Southern Hemisphere...where the Sun rises to ones 'left' when one faces the ecliptic and the noon day Sun.
A Hint: Take your own natal chart and place it before you in the usual manner and position. Turn it 180* and now flip it "over"...that is to say, "Face Down".
__________________
You Are A Divine Creation Of The Universe

Last edited by piercethevale; 07-09-2012 at 02:57 PM. Reason: Clarity. additional explanations and grammar.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Unread 07-09-2012, 03:04 PM
piercethevale's Avatar
piercethevale piercethevale is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alta California
Posts: 8,246
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

To try to further clarify this concept concerning the Horizon of the chart. Your first day on Earth should be represented by that "Day" ahead of you...regardless of what time of day you are born...night or day for that matter...not what is in the sky at the moment as to the matter of what is of the "Conscious realm" and what that is of the "Sub-Conscious". It should illustrate ones journey through their first "day of awareness".
__________________
You Are A Divine Creation Of The Universe
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Unread 07-09-2012, 03:19 PM
tsmall's Avatar
tsmall tsmall is offline
Senior Member, Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 3,114
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

ptv, these are very interesting ideas. I'm not familiar with a lot of the Sabian symbols and their history...still trying to learn everything else, I suppose.

dr. farr, thanks. There is so much information in your post that I could (and likely will) spend several weeks looking in to it.

Moog, if your question was directed to me, I have a quick minute in the chaos to give an example...

If you look at the Thema chart, take the 4th house. Libra, ruled by Venus (one of the traditional significations of the mother), the exaltation of Saturn. If we play with the ideas a bit, Libra is the natural 4th house. Saturn (the father) has a natural affinity with the 4th (well, that makes a ton of sense, now doesn't it?) and is exalted by Venus in the house that signifies "home/roots." This also gives us Saturn's affiliation with death, as the 4th represents death among other things.
__________________
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." ~Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Unread 07-10-2012, 03:30 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

I consider the Thema Mundi model best applied for spiritual/esoteric delineations, rather than for more mundane/practical/day to day matters; like a D60 karma varga chart, the TM model can illuminate underlying spiritual/karmic trends and potentials.
At least this spiritual/karmic/esoteric application of the TM model is what I have learned as being its most useful application.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Unread 07-10-2012, 07:35 AM
piercethevale's Avatar
piercethevale piercethevale is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alta California
Posts: 8,246
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

I just wanted to point out in ref to the following I wrote a couple of posts back:

"A Hint: Take your own natal chart and place it before you in the usual manner and position. Turn it 180* and now flip it "over"...that is to say, "Face Down".


...I've pointed this out and explained it [and could do a demonstration with a globe in my hands and a flashlight] to some friends and a couple-few fellow Astrologers here in Calif.

...and then I said: "You know that well know legendary/mythological protagonist that has a penchant for doing things in reverse? He also likes to flip things over before he does that...if you catch my drift?" ....and we were all discussing how knowledge may have been deliberately corrupted...btw

ps. for those of you that like your creationism like I do...the Bible does say the Sun rose in the West one time.
...and now we're adding that to the above... something for everyone in this theory as it can be expanded even more by questioning whether the orientation was indeed the noonday M.C. at the top of the chart...which again part of the 'perspective of view of the Heavens' originally used and whether or not may have even been some preference of one culture over that of an older culture it got it from. Certainly, those of us that are 'Yanks' know that all too well as to how we deliberately changed some clockwise directions and some sides in a few practices the U.S. had inherited from that of the English just for the sheer spite of it quite some time ago now...and how many of you honestly know all of which practices and reasons for why they had been done differently by our British ancestors that were among the first settlers in North America?
I can't...
I also like to remind my self that if these charts are from ancient Occidental origins then one has to consider what Edgar Cayce said about the Caucasian race being particularly acute in awareness of the sense of "sight" and as some Anthropologists have also noted on their own or in support of Cayce. That of the Asian Race particularly in awareness of the sense of "Hearing". Each of the 'orientations' led to respectively different concepts of being...as the Chinese ideogram for awareness is a circle and for consciousness [or cognitive...I'm not a translator] it's a circle with a dot in the center. I understand that most of the Asiatic people all use a common expression for acknowledging understanding of someone else, saying: "I hear you".
Where as the Indo-Europeans' say, "I see what you mean".
The Asiatic peoples have an inherent awareness or focus of 360* as acute hearing will naturally bestow that. The Indo Europeans a 180* field of awareness or focus.
Think about the static position of the birth chart as it is viewed in our astrology presently.
That was not the day you experienced the first 12 hours you were born. If you happened to be born with an Asc. at 16* Scorpio on a May 6th, like myself, the first 1/12th of your day would be experiencing the Zodiac until it reached the 16* of Sag. ...as mine did...not the degrees between 16* Scorpio to 23* Libra like my 'Western Astrology" birth chart says in the 12th house.
What is now presently called: "Above the Horizon" is in fact the last 12 hours you experience in your first day...and by 'Day', here, I mean 24 hours.
Think about it....
Now which way do you want to chase the symbols around the mandala...do you want to run into them to get out of the 'Maya'...or do you want to run ahead of them [or walk...after all we're talkin' a "STATIC" chart here...remember?] to escape it...to extricate yourself from it?
__________________
You Are A Divine Creation Of The Universe

Last edited by piercethevale; 07-10-2012 at 08:29 AM. Reason: added the "ps"
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Unread 07-10-2012, 08:51 AM
piercethevale's Avatar
piercethevale piercethevale is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alta California
Posts: 8,246
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

Think of it this way...

Just Follow the Yellow Brick Nodes...!


ps...if civilization did begin in the Southern Hemisphere and the Kabbalists are quoting verbatim then in the Beginning the sun was at Aries 01* and all Planets from Mars beyond were at 01* Libra...indicating that what I've been promoting as the Jesus/Yeshua chart to be, all the more considered for being, of valid in theory. As Pluto was certainly one of those original 'globes of spew' from the Sun and it being of the attributes 'Traditionally' attributed to it it must be in that position when an avatar appears as Humankind was 'Perfect' in the very beginning so must that condition for perfection... [for some reason at least to Pluto and whatever else may have appeared in the sky with Pluto at that time whether it be in the abstract or physical]... be in place for anything as near as to that perfection as it was from the beginning as God created it to be and had hoped [intended?] so it would remain.
__________________
You Are A Divine Creation Of The Universe

Last edited by piercethevale; 07-10-2012 at 09:03 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Unread 07-10-2012, 09:13 AM
piercethevale's Avatar
piercethevale piercethevale is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alta California
Posts: 8,246
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

...and now come to think of it as my chart for the aforementioned fellow has the Moon at 29* Virgo 25' ...the astrodienst ephemeris could be off by as much as a half of a degree for a 2000 year span... Kaldea has Pluto off from astrodienst as to Plutos position by more than that.
I believe he then had 2 of the physical and some in abstract...as He allegedly said, "These things I do , you shall also and..."
...and as my much studied and practiced in Maha Kundalini, and good friend, Suryakant, has oft said that, "Jesus wasn't endowed with and never acquired all the siddhis" ...that now becomes all the more understandable.
__________________
You Are A Divine Creation Of The Universe

Last edited by piercethevale; 07-10-2012 at 09:16 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Unread 07-10-2012, 11:13 AM
piercethevale's Avatar
piercethevale piercethevale is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alta California
Posts: 8,246
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

One last thought and question [or vicea versa]

Of all the 'so called' constellations in the sky which one actually looks like the tilte given to it?
Ever wonder why and why in THAT part of the sky?



if you haven't figured it out...
hint
Attached Images
File Type: gif IMG_6072_bloated.gif (11.2 KB, 5 views)
__________________
You Are A Divine Creation Of The Universe

Last edited by piercethevale; 07-10-2012 at 11:18 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Unread 07-10-2012, 01:32 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 51,052
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Moog, if your question was directed to me, I have a quick minute in the chaos to give an example...

If you look at the Thema chart, take the 4th house. Libra, ruled by Venus (one of the traditional significations of the mother), the exaltation of Saturn. If we play with the ideas a bit, Libra is the natural 4th house. Saturn (the father) has a natural affinity with the 4th (well, that makes a ton of sense, now doesn't it?) and is exalted by Venus in the house that signifies "home/roots." This also gives us Saturn's affiliation with death, as the 4th represents death among other things.
tsmall, I agree with your impromptu 'Thema Mundi style' response to Moog's question and many thanks for providing a link to the informative article by Douglas Noblehorse explaining exactly why he is of the opinion that "the more than 2000 year old Hellenistic technique known as the 'Thema Mundi' has relevance to astrology today."

That relevance is IMO clearly shown by the following 80 word extract from the Douglas Noblehorse article which for this particular example extract focuses on Mars
http://www.azastrologers.org/Article...ThemaMundi.htm

QUOTE: “The Thema Mundi is a Hellenistic Era Natural Wheel that illustrates fundamental astrological principles. In addition, it reveals the inner geometrical elegance that gives these fundamentals their meaning and definition.


For instance, Mars is associated with Aries and Scorpio and to a lesser extent with Capricorn.

The Thema Mundi clearly illustrates why we also think of squares and going even deeper than that, it shows why we should perhaps think of the 5th, 6th, 7th and 10th houses as well”

fwiw IMO Douglas Noblehorse has provided a most useful summary of important considerations related to basic Mars delineation of natal (as well as other, such as mundane) astrological charts
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post:
SunConjunctUranus (02-12-2019)
  #15  
Unread 07-11-2012, 03:51 PM
tsmall's Avatar
tsmall tsmall is offline
Senior Member, Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 3,114
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
I consider the Thema Mundi model best applied for spiritual/esoteric delineations, rather than for more mundane/practical/day to day matters; like a D60 karma varga chart, the TM model can illuminate underlying spiritual/karmic trends and potentials.
At least this spiritual/karmic/esoteric application of the TM model is what I have learned as being its most useful application.
I'm not sure what you mean, dr. farr. My understanding of the Thema is that first and foremost it's purpose is to demonstrate the various principles of astrology. It's a pretty nifty tool for doing just that, and most of the basic ideology of western traditional astrology is right there in it.

I also still wonder how it is that Aries became the "1st" house...
__________________
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." ~Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Unread 07-11-2012, 04:20 PM
Moog's Avatar
Moog Moog is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: In The Litter Tray
Posts: 2,701
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
I'm not sure what you mean, dr. farr. My understanding of the Thema is that first and foremost it's purpose is to demonstrate the various principles of astrology. It's a pretty nifty tool for doing just that, and most of the basic ideology of western traditional astrology is right there in it.

I also still wonder how it is that Aries became the "1st" house...
I thought it was probably tied into the seasons. The sun's ingress into Aries, the spring equinox marking the end of winter and the beginning of a new year.
__________________
My Chart, Tropical
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Unread 07-11-2012, 06:19 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 51,052
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moog View Post
I thought it was probably tied into the seasons. The sun's ingress into Aries, the spring equinox marking the end of winter and the beginning of a new year.
How would that thought apply to a Sidereal seasonal spring equinox ingress?
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Unread 07-11-2012, 06:21 PM
Moog's Avatar
Moog Moog is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: In The Litter Tray
Posts: 2,701
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
How would that thought apply to a Sidereal seasonal spring equinox ingress?
Hmm, I thought I'd written 'tropical zodiac' in there. Obviously they are out of sync now.
__________________
My Chart, Tropical
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Unread 07-12-2012, 02:09 AM
tsmall's Avatar
tsmall tsmall is offline
Senior Member, Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 3,114
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

So, at some point (?) perhaps due to the "new year" being celebrated in the Spring, Aries was deemed the "natural" first house...yet that still doesn't make sense to me. Again going back to the idea that the Moon represents the body, the first house of a natal chart, the original horoscope, contains the ASC...the physical body. Moon then as "natural" ruler of the 1st seems to be a more appropriate significator.
__________________
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." ~Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Unread 07-12-2012, 04:05 AM
piercethevale's Avatar
piercethevale piercethevale is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alta California
Posts: 8,246
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

The "New Year" for Gentiles, and all others, using the Julian calendars was April 1st and it was for many centuries until Pope Gregory did away with that for the most part [there were a few 'holdouts']...hence where and why the origin of the "April Fool", being that of someone who still believed the New Year began on April !st.. it was a propaganda campaign, basically, figuring that if you ridicule people en masse and thus also more effectively... then those folks will be all the more willing to go along with the change.

Mars I would suspect was promoted into the recognition it has... I'ts just ALL WRONG in regards to the mechanics, the abstract notions and qualities of everything else in the Zodiac that does work in the practice of Trad. astrology....IMHO...of course...
...and very much the opposite from what Virgo is representative of iconically... I rings with some theories/statements found in that quirky and most queer little book that is titled. "Nothing In This Book Is True, But It's Exactly The Way Things Are."
__________________
You Are A Divine Creation Of The Universe
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Unread 07-12-2012, 05:56 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

Certainly the seasonal explanation for the tropical zodiac does NOT work when we consider the flow of the elements and the elemental affinities of the cardinal signs:
In ALL (Western) elemental affinitive systems: Fire is warm and dry, Air warm and moist, Water is cold and moist, Earth is cold and dry
In ALL (Western) elemental systems, each season is associated with a specific element: Fire = summer, Air = spring, Earth = autumn, Water = winter
Now, in the Northern hemisphere there is 0 correlation between the element of the season and the corresponding element of the sign (cardinal or tropical sign) of the beginning of that season, viz:
Spring = Air/ Aries = Fire
Summer = Fire/Cancer = Water
Autumn = Earth/Libra = Air
Winter = Water/Capricorn = Earth
...no elemental correlation at all

Funny thing, in the Southern hemisphere there is a correlation between sign/season in half of the seasons: Cancer/cold+moist, matches Winter (Water) in the Southern hemisphere; Libra/warm+moist, matches Spring (Air) in the Southern hemisphere; but there is no correlation in the Southern hemisphere for Aries and Capricorn (Southern hemisphere Autumn and Summer seasons)

In another post on AW I have explained my understanding of the "why" as to the ordering of the chain of tropical signs as correlated with what alchemists call "the circulation of the elements", unfortunately I don't remember where that post is (since I have nearly 7000 posts I have lost track)...

Last edited by dr. farr; 07-12-2012 at 05:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Unread 07-13-2012, 11:46 PM
tsmall's Avatar
tsmall tsmall is offline
Senior Member, Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 3,114
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Certainly the seasonal explanation for the tropical zodiac does NOT work when we consider the flow of the elements and the elemental affinities of the cardinal signs:
In ALL (Western) elemental affinitive systems: Fire is warm and dry, Air warm and moist, Water is cold and moist, Earth is cold and dry
In ALL (Western) elemental systems, each season is associated with a specific element: Fire = summer, Air = spring, Earth = autumn, Water = winter
Now, in the Northern hemisphere there is 0 correlation between the element of the season and the corresponding element of the sign (cardinal or tropical sign) of the beginning of that season, viz:
Spring = Air/ Aries = Fire
Summer = Fire/Cancer = Water
Autumn = Earth/Libra = Air
Winter = Water/Capricorn = Earth
...no elemental correlation at all

Funny thing, in the Southern hemisphere there is a correlation between sign/season in half of the seasons: Cancer/cold+moist, matches Winter (Water) in the Southern hemisphere; Libra/warm+moist, matches Spring (Air) in the Southern hemisphere; but there is no correlation in the Southern hemisphere for Aries and Capricorn (Southern hemisphere Autumn and Summer seasons)

In another post on AW I have explained my understanding of the "why" as to the ordering of the chain of tropical signs as correlated with what alchemists call "the circulation of the elements", unfortunately I don't remember where that post is (since I have nearly 7000 posts I have lost track)...
I wish you could recall the thread, dr. farr. I'd love to read it.

It is interesting, isn't it, that the elemental model doesn't match the percieved beginning of each season if we look at a seasonal calendar and base the first sign as the start of the calendar/zodiac.

I have often wondered how a circle can have a beginning, and the zodiac is a circle. I can see how the crossover between the beginning of the zodiac and the start of a new year/new growth in spring would or may have happened, but it still seems as though there is a very good reason why Cancer is the rising sign in the Thema, and all the ancients agreed that the first house is the sign containing the ASC. They were pretty smart, so you would think they would have noticed something as drastic as that where they placed the "natural" first house didn't match with the chart of the world?
__________________
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." ~Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Unread 07-14-2012, 04:53 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

I think that is because the schema's represented 2 different levels of manifestation: the Thema, the fundamental (ultimate causal) "spiritual" foundational level, the Aries =1st house schema the proximate, "ethero=physical" "surface", "mundane world" level (these ideas come from a certain hermetic order, dating back to the time of Paracelsus)
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Unread 07-14-2012, 03:04 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 51,052
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
I wish you could recall the thread, dr. farr. I'd love to read it.
The post dr. farr refers to may well be the following one tsmall and if you click on the linking facility box next to where it says 'originally posted by dr. farr' you'll find yourself connected to the original thread on which it was posted
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Cardan (several hundred years ago) was the first to suggest a reversal of signs for the Southern Hemisphere (then rather newly discovered)

But Manilius (14 AD) speculated a Southern Hemisphere to the Earth (vide "Astronomica") but did not feel that the order of signs, etc, be changed to account for this.

The idea of signs = seasons (in my opinion) is NOT the basis of the sequential order of signs; this has to do with the macroscosmic "circulation of the elements", and not upon what season exists in a particular location.

Just consider the "seasonal" allocations relative to the elements of the signs in the NORTHERN Hemisphere:

Spring equinox: all authors give the element of Spring as "warm and moist", ie, Air element: what's the sign (in the tropical zodiac)? Aries which = hot and dry and = Fire

Summer solstice: all authors give Fire (hot and dry) as the element of Summer; what's the sign? Cancer-cold and moist, ie Water (exact reverse of the seasonal element in the Norther Hemisphere)

Autumn equinox: all authors give cold and dry to the Autumn season, ie, Earth; what is the sign for the autumn equinox? Libra, warm and moist, = Air

Winter solstice: all authors give cold and moist for Winter, ie, Water; what is the sign of the winter solstice? Capricorn, which is cold and dry, = Earth.

...so even considering the Northern Hemisphere, the tropic signs (Aries, Cancer, Libra, Capricron) do NOT match the elemental seasons, not AT ALL (elementally)


Obviously the signs and their sequence were NOT originally allocated based upon Northern Hemisphere seasonal considerations...
Very interesting dr. farr, thank you - much appreciated
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
It is interesting, isn't it, that the elemental model doesn't match the percieved beginning of each season if we look at a seasonal calendar and base the first sign as the start of the calendar/zodiac
Most intriguing and well worth mulling over IMO
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
I have often wondered how a circle can have a beginning, and the zodiac is a circle...
fwiw IMO any natal chart is a mathematical convention constructed so as to impose some kind of order on a transient starry vault... remember that all heavenly bodies are 'travelling in space-time continuum' and our Sun is no exception.

Planet earth is not only orbiting our sun at approximately 60,000 miles per hour BUT IS ALSO TRAVELING WITH THE SUN
which itself travels at 40,000 per hour on its orbit around a far distant sun some contend is the fixed star Sirius

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
I can see how the crossover between the beginning of the zodiac and the start of a new year/new growth in spring would or may have happened, but it still seems as though there is a very good reason why Cancer is the rising sign in the Thema, and all the ancients agreed that the first house is the sign containing the ASC. They were pretty smart, so you would think they would have noticed something as drastic as that where they placed the "natural" first house didn't match with the chart of the world?
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Unread 07-14-2012, 03:43 PM
Anachiel Anachiel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 1,462
Re: Thema Mundi: an alternate to natural house rulers?

Hi tsmall.

Cancer is not the ASC because of any metaphysical reason or as a demonstration of any 'first' sign. If you look at the Thema, the signs from Cancer to Sagitarrius are all signs of long ascension. The signs from Capricorn to Gemini, all signs of short ascension. The Thema is divided along the Solsticial signs, horozontally, much like we might find on the Earth, the latitudinal lines of the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn.

This is what we know as anticia, anticions


Now, on the vertical the chart is divided along the equinoctial or signs that have relation to each other by the same length of rising/setting. The Sun's declination is similar in each of these signs. So, for example, in Taurus the Sun is at 11-18 north declination and in Aquarius it is 11-18 south declination. These are signs of equal rising and setting.

Euclid, for one, postulated all this and set it down to rule in his Phaenomena which is probably easy found on the web somewhere. ima sure the copyright has expired by now. lol

Anyway, the Thema Mundi is simply demonstating some basic astronomical principals, as well as the physical or astronomical way we perceive the universe to move about us (i.e. rising/setting, light/night, etc). It is a very compact little teaching schema.
__________________
“You are never alone or helpless. The force that guides the stars guides you too.”~ Shrii Shrii Anandamurt
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Anachiel For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (10-01-2017), SunConjunctUranus (02-12-2019)
Reply

Tags
alternate, house, mundi, natural, rulers, thema

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Natural Ruler Mutual House Reception Shining Ray Natal Astrology 9 01-02-2012 07:15 PM
Aspects/Houses tikana Education Board 4 06-07-2010 11:31 AM
Don't know what to make of this synastry and composite chart... HELP! ariesisis Read My Chart 9 10-23-2009 04:43 AM
Significance of the Ruler of a House danieycc Read My Chart 13 04-20-2009 01:56 AM



All times are GMT. The time now is 11:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.