Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Blaze said:

What the heck is a "modernist" and why are practitioners of traditional astrology not considered modern if, you know, they live in the modern world?

Click to expand...

david starling said:

I'm using "Modernistic astrologer", abbreviated as a "Mod",
and "Traditionalistic astrologer" abbreviated as a "Trad".
The reason is,
as you're pointing out, the words "modern" and "traditional"
are too general and in use for too many other subjects.
J.A. is a Trad, meaning a modern-day astrologer who uses astrology as it was, from Hellenistic times
through the Renaissance, as far as can be ascertained through translations of extant ancient records.
I don't attach any disrespectful connotations to the terms Trad and Mod--
they're just accurate descriptions of the type of astrology being practiced.
Obviously, all current astrologers can be considered "modern-day",
although "present-day" may be a more accurate term.
Since the planets beyond Saturn were unknown until after the
Renaissance, a purely Traditionalistic approach must forego any use of any of them,
Pluto included; whereas a Modernistic view allows their inclusion
as astrological planets.

Click to expand...

Traditional astrology is rooted in the astronomy of our solar system

JUPITERASC said:

Obviously
Traditional astrology is rooted in the astronomy of our solar system
for example
THEMA MUNDI arranges the planets visible to the naked eye
by visibility and/or order.
you may dismiss Thema Mundi as bu*lsh**
because
it doesn’t include Uranus and Neptune.

Well of course it wouldn’t,
not just because they didn’t know about them,
but because it’s a system predicated on visibility,
and the outer planets are invisible to the naked eye.
The best human eyesight in optimal conditions
can detect magnitudes down to 6.5, and Uranus deviates between 5.38 and 6.03,
so it’s really not that visible.
It’s barely visible once a year when it opposes the Sun,
and you’d have to know where to look.
You really have to bend over backwards to look at Uranus.
Saturn signifies limits
because Saturn is at the limit of human visibility - Patrick Watson

Click to expand...

david starling said:

The Earth is an astronomical Planet. Not a whole lot of astrologers using it though.

Click to expand...

Blaze said:

The old argument is: "Astrology is about what's in the sky" but how do we know earths ages, which we do bring up, have no effect on charts? Personally, I do not know, but it'd be interesting to study, were one so inclined.

Click to expand...

Blaze said:

The old argument is: "Astrology is about what's in the sky"
but how do we know earths ages, which we do bring up,
have no effect on charts?
Personally, I do not know, but it'd be interesting to study, were one so inclined.

Click to expand...

Traditional Astrology is hierarchical
Mundane astrology astrological prediction has the following hierarchy of charts
as an example for the location of New York

starting with:

21 May 1702
4:01:37 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York
074°W00'37"
40°N42'26"


Great Mutation (Earth) 1802
17 Jul 1802
5:52:26 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


Great Malefic 1976
12 May 1976
9:51:13 AM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


…...............................................................................................................
HOWEVER

this chart....


Great Malefic 2004
25 May 2004
1:20 AM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


....is now the operating Malefic Chart until....


Great Malefic 2034
26 Jun 2034
5:33:42 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


becomes operative

and also


Great Mutation (Air) & Great Conjunction 2020
21 Dec 2020
1:24:22 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


….........................................................................................................

MEANWHILE

Great Conjunction 2000
28 May 2000
11:07:39 AM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


2019 Aries Ingress
20 Mar 2014
Federal Hall, New York


....Insert Your Natal Chart and/or 'Event Chart' Here.....

That is the hierarchy of charts in Mundane Astrology


Note:

Relocate the chart(s) to your country
and
for maximum accuracy
use the "foundation point"

eg: Romania = Alba Iulia, not Bucharesti

Japan = Kyoto, not Tokyo

Spain = Toledo, not Madrid

and so on

moonkat235 said:

You mentioned how a person does not have unlimited free will without repercussions but rather a choice in how they react. I disagree.

I believe a natal chart at least reflects the core constitution of a person and then transits, progressions, profection years, solar returns, lunar returns, the 5 levels of Vimshottari etc. etc. The list can go on. These techniques together could tell you how that person will react at any given moment. I think astrology, if you wanted to dive right in and combine several techniques, could tell you what's going to happen within a very small and specific time frame. HOWEVER, who has time for that really?

Astrologers are unable at a practical level to correlate the heavens with minute human experiences given certain constraints like time and personal interest. I don't believe the errors in astrological prediction indicate free will is the cause of interference and deviation. I believe it is human error.

Click to expand...

david starling said:

Saturn is the Planet of "limitations".
It's the farthest Planet from the Earth
that can be identified as a Planet by a person with 20/20 vision.
Since Modernistic astrology is not predicated on naked-eye visibility,
it can go beyond Saturn's orbit and use the outermost Planets.

Click to expand...

The best human eyesight in optimal conditions
can detect magnitudes down to 6.5, and Uranus deviates between 5.38 and 6.03,

Blaze said:

The posts have gained some quality. Still not enough to have an actual debate as thousands of memes have pushed people out, but quality posts attempted. Noice.

Click to expand...

unique_astrology said:

Plenty of Pluto to coincide with the massive destruction and probable huge loss of lives and/or missing in the Bahamas caused by hurricane Dorian.

The Canlunar covering hurricane Dorian's stall over Grand Bahama Island progressed to the stall there on September 2nd, 1:30 am, EDT, with all eclipses from September 1st 2018 through September 2nd 2019. None of the eclipses located there had Mars or Pluto on an angle and only 1 had Uranus near an angle (The total lunar eclipse of January 21st had Uranus within 1°20' of it's Desc).

The progressed Canlunar had an MC at 214°34' (6°55' Scorpio in longitude).

It had it's Uranus on the IC and it's Pluto on the Asc.

All of the following aspects are from eclipse points to the progressed Canlunar and were measured in right ascension.

It had Pluto from the January 5th solar eclipse on it's Asc.

It had the January 21st total lunar eclipse square the MC (within 1°30' of RA) and eclipse Pluto on the Asc.

Saturn and Pluto from the July 2nd total solar eclipse straddled the progressed Canlunar's Asc (their midpoint was on it), it's Mars square to the progressed Canlunar's MC and and it's Uranus on it's IC.

The July 16th lunar eclipse was square to the progressed Canlunar's MC (within 2°40' of RA), it's Saturn and Pluto straddling the Asc and it's Uranus on the IC.

Click to expand...

emily23 said:

Asteroids are not planets,
I don't use them at all,
there's thousands of the buggers,
a tarot deck is simpler than that lot
and have you seen a chart with a tonne of asteroids...
migraine material.....
lets say Pluto is akin to an asteroid,

Click to expand...

Exactly
However modern astrologer Caprising disagrees with you

Caprising said:

I try them out through reading charts for people, cause and effect.
Of course I also watch my own chart
to see if any asteroids present a repeatable pattern
when they become dignified through progressions and transits.
Also it's good to compare notes with others via the web.
Obviously a half dozen Asteroids is enough to start with,
there is no need to study thousands of them at this point in time.

Click to expand...

Oddity said:

There are fifty or more Kuiper Belt objects (that's what Pluto technically is), and literally millions of asteroids out there.

Just because it's in the solar system doesn't mean you have to use it.

Where's the cutoff point? It's not obvious.

Click to expand...

Zarathu said:

I use the following asteroids for love and relationship:

Erato, Amor, Bienor, Bosque Alegre, Compassion, Amanda, Frigga, Klyria, Medea, Rousseau, Summa, Valentine, Anteros, Hathor, Jason, Moraes, Peirithoos, Pocahintas, Sidi, Ubasti, Sappho, Amicitia, Patroclus, Cupido, Medusa, Hephaistos, Demeter, Hera, Thereus, Valentine, Nessus,
Ariadne, Chariklo, Close, Rhoda, Damocles

Does anyone use others not here, and what do they mean?
Zarathu

Click to expand...

Bina said:

Wow- that's a lot of asteroids in your list!

I sometimes look at Psyche and Eros..

Click to expand...

Zarathu said:

No its a small number. I regularly use 700 of them.

Click to expand...

emily23 said:

Asteroids are not planets, I don't use them at all, there's thousands

of the buggers, a tarot deck is simpler than that lot

and have you seen a chart with a tonne of asteroids...migraine material
.....lets say Pluto is akin to an asteroid, what about Neptune and Uranus?

Also was there any level of this apoplexy towards Pluto BEFORE astronomers declared it a dwarf planet (note, still a planet)

Click to expand...

Oddity said:

As far as I can see, Pluto is an astrological planet because modern astrologers use it.

PTV says that the ancients used the outer planets, including Pluto, up until 12,500 BCE, and cites Edgar Cayce's channelled material, the channelled material of a woman psychic PTV knows personally, and the Vedas (but no specific passage) as evidence. At least there's somewhere to look in the public record even if you disagree with his theory, so thank you for giving some pointers in the direction, PTV.

Muchacho says that history is suspect based on his reading of chronological theory by a Russian mathematician, Anatole Fomenko, and that in reality, traditional astrology is a new-ish invention, and the meanings for the traditional planets were cribbed from modern astrology and the outer planets. Muchacho cites intuition as his source. That really can't be referenced.

A number of people say that modern astrologers have extensively researched Pluto, and Caprising says that he (or she) has researched it in his own work. Waybread cites Rob Hand's text, Planets in Transit. Rob himself has since recanted that text, as he discovered that in his own practice transits mostly didn't work, and that the language of modern astrology is so vague it's difficult to tell what's indicative astrologically when something is happening.

Waybread also says that Pluto 'works' as a house cusp ruler, but in horary astrology she uses Mars as the ruler of Scorpio.

Your reporter, Odd, has a thing for language, and would emphasise what Rob says about the imprecision of language in modern astrology because he believes that astrology is a shared human endeavour, and it's important to be able to use language to share it.

A good number of posters use Pluto because they say they feel it in their charts. Nobody has said what Pluto feels like, though, and several people have said that you must intuit that. This is problematic on a number of levels, to me at least.

Several people have noted that modern astrology is a psychic tool and not a science. If this is true, it certainly gives more latitude to do what you want. It also contributes to the problem (as I see it) of not being able to define astrological terms, like....planet.

One poster says Pluto is responsible for metaphorical death, but not actual death, since it rules transformation, another says it rules death proper, one says it rules notoriety, another says it rules wealth. Psychological suppression, child abuse and pornography, as well as eruptions, are given to Pluto by at least a couple of posters. The word 'depth' gets used a lot in connection with Pluto as most posters seem to feel there is a connection there, though it remains unexplained. All of these things can be accounted for using the traditional planets, though, so - why Pluto?

I really think it comes down to 'because I use it'. And you can if you want to. But you can certainly read a chart without it, too.

I know I'm biased, as is everybody, but I think this is pretty much what it comes down to, and I have tried to be fair. If I have grossly misrepresented you - please yell.

Click to expand...

emily23 said:

re Pluto you don't seem to know what is going on



Why not just let astrologers do what they want to do


....there is no code is there?
IE as to what factors you want to use
...hopefully one day there will be university courses in the subject
...then again if the uppers in the subject argue like children
what hope is there of restoring the honour and glory
to a wonderful subject
...seems to go along the lines of many scientists bickering like toddlers
when all along I though they were in it all for the same reasons
My Jupiter sag trine Uranus trine is severely disappointed lol

Click to expand...

Oddity said:

No, there isn't a code, and
if this thread is any indication, astrologers are doing exactly what they want.

There are university courses in astrology, btw.

But one of the things that will prevent it from becoming a serious subject is
- everyone is doing what they want.

And that leads to any number of subjective interpretations, like 'it's a planet
because I use it/I said so'
or the myriad things Pluto (and the other outers)
are said to signify, when

those things are already signified by the classical planets.

You can't run a university course on astrology by intuition, it's
an intensely personal thing, it's often wrong
- and as has been brought up on this thread, it

cannot be communicated to many of us.
If you're a deconstructionist, I suppose this can work, and
astrology can continue to be trivialised.

If, like me, you find the deconstructionists seriously lacking, then
there are problems with this whole idea.
On a personal level, I'm also a little bit scared of what could happen
if astrology was completely legitimised, because I know what it can do, and
I know what people have asked me to do with it.
But yes, I get tired of being thought a loon, too, because
'educated people aren't supposed to believe that'.

Click to expand...