Ascendant vs. Descendant

Yanel

Well-known member
Hi! I find the descirptions of the AC/DC axis a little bit confusing so I'd appreciate someone else's opinion.
Here it is the 'problem': If the Descendant/7th house represents not only other people but the native's behaviour towards other people how then the Ascendant is also considered the expression of a person when interacting with other people, the mask? Some sources refer to the AC as the mask we put when in the outer world, the ones who don't do that don't give clear definitions. Also, some sources refer to the DC as only what the other people are like in one's life but it's absurd because I sense that this is only a part of what this point stands for and if the DC is not in any way yours then why it is shown in the individual horoscopes?
Thanks
 

waybread

Well-known member
The DS, as the cusp of the 7th house, indicates your attitudes about marriage or other committed romantic relationships. It can also be the "house of open enemies"-- vs. the back-stabbers you don't know about (a 12th house matter.) If someone's sun or other personal planets are in the 7th house, being in a committed relationship is likely very important to him. The 7th is also where you would look for a business partner, regular tennis partner, and so on: most relationships where you operate as a twosome.

Because the ascendant is one of the major "me" points in the horoscope (along with your sun and moon) the opposite point on the chart, the descendant, can become a "not me" point; and it can show how you react to others in a one-on-one "me-you" relationship more generally.

When I first learned astrology, I came across the "mask" key word for the ascendant, but I am much less taken with it today. Surely, some people (like politicians!) develop a kind of mask that seemingly hides the real person beneath. I think it makes more sense to view the ascendant as your body and outward personality-- how you come across to other people. Oftentimes we are unaware of how we come across to other people, but but through introspection we can generally see how we exemplify the traits of our rising sign and first house planets (if any.)

Look also for planets aspecting the ascendant. Someone (like me) with Virgo rising can exemplify Virgo's fixation with detail and perfectionism; yet with Uranus square my ascendant, there is no way I can come across as the neat and tidy secretary.

Bottom line: each house in the horoscope represents multiple and different discrete things. You are your entire chart, so if we look at the third house of siblings, for example, people objectively have brothers and sisters who are their own individuals. But the third will say something about how people experience their siblings. The third also shows your own communication style. No, this doesn't necessarily relate to siblings: the third house also includes your neighbours and short-distance travel. So how we read the third house depends upon the question we are asking about the chart.
 

Yanel

Well-known member
So when I interact with people they see me as my Ascendant sign and when I interact with one person only he/she will see me as my Descendant sign. Should thаt person be a romantic interest in order for the 'mask' to be my DC and not my AC?
And if I don't have any planets in the first and seven houses I search for their lords, right? Like, for example, the lord of my Taurus Ascendant is Venus and my Venus is in Virgo and in the 5th house. So these will be the qualities other people see in me? The lord of my Scorpio Ascendant is Pluto and in the 8th house so these will be the qualities I show when interacting with just one person or with my partner?
 

kimbermoon

Well-known member
'But the third will say something about how people experience their siblings';

I do agree that this understanding is true, that the polar opposites must also be factored in as to how we experience things through others; it is like the cause and the effect principle. At the personal level the third also denotes the lower, instinctive mind and how one exchanges information with others. People get confused by focusing on matters connected only with siblings for the third and referring to the influence of Mercury being only about communications; it is also about one's personal perspectives about things including opinions, and 'how the mind works' Mercury also relates to the basic level of intellectual understanding; in the third it is about basic and instinctive reactions that are formed by our early conditioning and experiences. When we can move into the higher consciousness of the 9th H we learn to see beyond what we have been taught about life, whereas the 9th is about wakening to a new level of consciousness and awareness. This is where we gain visions and insights through 'journeys of the mind'.
 

waybread

Well-known member
So when I interact with people they see me as my Ascendant sign and when I interact with one person only he/she will see me as my Descendant sign. Should thаt person be a romantic interest in order for the 'mask' to be my DC and not my AC?
And if I don't have any planets in the first and seven houses I search for their lords, right? Like, for example, the lord of my Taurus Ascendant is Venus and my Venus is in Virgo and in the 5th house. So these will be the qualities other people see in me? The lord of my Scorpio Ascendant is Pluto and in the 8th house so these will be the qualities I show when interacting with just one person or with my partner?

Let's start over, shall we?

A really good book on the ASC/DSC axis is Jodie Forrest, The Ascendant.

When you interact with people on a personal level they see your ascendant-- until they get to know you better. The 10th house is your wider reputation. If you have Leo rising, you will come across to others like Leo rising, regardless.

The other person (like a partner) may or may not understand your descendant way of being-- it depends upon how well you are matched and how well you understand each other. Example: suppose "she" has Virgo rising with Pisces on the descendant. "He" ideally is a sensitive, laid-back sort of guy, regardless of whether he has anything in Pisces. She is attracted to him because he seemingly embodies Piscean traits. But sometimes he finds her too picky and critical, because--Virgo rising that she is-- she is not OK with a complete "go with the flow" approach to housekeeping or other matters. Or sometimes she finds out he's a secret drinker, and he learns that she never thinks anything he does is good enough. So a lot depends upon their interpersonal dynamic.

Yes, if a house is untenanted, see what the house cusp lords are doing. So with our previous example, maybe our Virgo rising lady actually has Neptune (7th house ruler) conjunct moon square Venus. This suggests she is really too idealistic about how much she can realistically expect from the Joe Average she married.

With Taurus rising and no planets in the first house-- or aspecting your ascendant-- people will basically see you as embodying Taurus qualities, for good or not-so-good. But if we want to know more about your body and personality, then we look to Venus in the 5th. People may not react initially to your 5th house Venus: it's in the 5th, not the first house, right? As they get to know you, they might see the party girl or the woman who loves children (5th house matters.) With two earth points in your chart, this will deepen an impression of you as having a primarily practical approach to life.

Similarly, and 8th house planet is generally well hidden from the personality you present to the world. However, since some astrologers believe the 8th house rules sexuality, this would be an area of your life that your partner would get to know.
 

mdinaz

Well-known member
The eastern half of the chart is where we take in, and the western half where we direct out. The ASC can also represent where we take in from the world, how the world affects us and shapes us. The "you" that you present to the world is the summation of all those experiences in life; each new experience shapes the "you" that exists and thus the mask presented to the world also changes. The DSC is where we direct out consciously to the world, where we attempt to modify our outer world and the people in it, again based on our experiences, thoughts and values.
Aries traditionally rules the 1st and with Mars; the keyword of those is action and activity - we view the world as a mass of activity and action and those actions shape us. The 7th is traditionally ruled by Venus and in Libra - Venus rules the 2nd house of values and beliefs as well as the 7th. We want balance, peace and tranquility in our lives but are opposed (1st - 7th) by the needs and wants of others. They interact with us in the ASC and we interact back out the 7th, and try to balance those polarities.
 

greybeard

Well-known member
In brief, the Asc is "self", with the Dsc representin "not self".
The polarity depicts the relationship of self to not-self.
Keep in mind that the 7th House (Dsc its cusp) is the House of War...thus it represents "the Enemy" as distinct from self. If it is "the Spouse", once again this is "the other person" as distinct from "self".
It is the polarity that actually depicts "the Relationship"...and it is polarized, confrontational, complementary, etc., depending on the nature of the specific relationship (it can be amicable or inimical). The Dsc is the person or thing related to, of itself, while the relationship is shown in the interplay of the two opposing polarized house cusps.

If you will study Jung and his description of the "persona" you will find that his description is a very close fit with the Asc (and that is only part of what the Asc represents). "Persona" in the old Greek originally signified the mask worn by actors on stage that characterized their "role" (villain, hero, damsel....), and the Asc also represents our "role in life". Because it is the intersection of ecliptic with horizon, the Asc also represents our personal "horizons" in life, and also the "ground on which we stand." It is here that the invisible sky below the Earth comes into view, so the Asc is also "consciousness, awareness", thus our perception of the world around us. It is where the day begins, so it is the symbol of All Beginnings in our life...and it is a scientific "fact" that the outcome of anything is dependent on its "initial conditions". Thus the Asc describes in capsule form our destiny.

The Dsc, as "not-self" is "the other" in any form as something/someone opposed to or complementing/completing us. It is that thing/person of itself, in contrast to ourself. Like the Asc, it contains many other meanings. For example, it is where the Sun sets (the light goes out) -- thus it is a point of death (it opposes the Asc, which is life itself, our physical manfestation.) It is the point of transition from consciousness to unconsciousness, from visible to invisible.

Waybread has given you some good pointers. I would add that it is always necessary (vital) to carefully study the lord of any house, because the lord (dispositor) of any house disposes the affairs of that house and any planets it contains. The lord of a house (sign) has the Last Word in the affairs of the house (sign) and its contents.

The Asc -- Dsc axis (polarity) is of first importance in any chart, because we do not exist in isolation. There is no life without "relationship". As a discrete organism, I have a relationship to the outer world (sun, wind, water, earth) and all that is in it. This outer world both supports me and challenges my very survival. It can be cooperative or antagonistic. The baby at birth (the Asc is "birth" -- the First Breath -- the "coming into being") is opposed by powerful forces which act against its survival. This new individual must repond immediately and instinctively to meet, adapt to and overcome this opposition. That is what the Asc does. The action at the Asc is both inflowing and outflowing. We project our inner self through it and perceive and react to the outer world through it. It is not the same (in apparent expression) from moment to moment [I may be "friendly" or "aggressive" depending on my perception of what my necessary "face" should be at any moment, in the constantly changing "face" of the outer world.) Thus, the sign on the Asc [and very importantly, the condition of its lord] describes this range of possible behaviors, suggests which one (sort) of the many possible behaviors inherent in each sign may predominate (the condition of the lord, in particular, shows us this). The sign gives general indications (which may be seen more specifically by looking to the rising degree) while the lord particularizes the expression. Naturally, planets in the sign or house have powerful effects too, and aspects to those planets and/or aspects to the rising degree exert a strong influence.

As you can see, "reading" the Asc is complex and often leads you to all or almost all of the planets in the chart. But it is not so complex as to be beyond your abilty to make sense of it. It does require patience, persistence, the will to solve the riddle.
 

Yanel

Well-known member
Thank you all for the explanations!
I knew, in general, that the Ascendant is me and the Descendant is the other person. I get consfused when I interpret the two as being a part of one axis. I've read somewhere that the DC is what we reflect and I got even more confused considering that the AC is what I show and how I perceive the world around me but according to the reflection concept the DC is the interaction itself. If my Taurus rising is my lenses through which everything gets in and my Scorpio DC is the lenses through which everything gets out then what happens with the idea that it is the AC that people see in me when what I direct to the outer world is the DC?
And lets say that in an ideal world my partner would have the qualities of my DC. Why would that be? I mean, what in me, the AC or DC, will attract that kind of guy? What my partner would see - me(AC considered as the self) or my reflection(the DC, what I un/consciously show?)?
 

waybread

Well-known member
Yanel, the ascendant is you and the descendant is you. You are everything in your chart.

The difference is that the DSC/7th house indicates your experience of another person. We can think of this axis as "me-you" except that the "you" is always viewed through your own eyes.

With Taurus rising, it is likely that you appear to other people in a Taurean manner. Maybe you seem to be a practical sort of person, with a certain fixity of purpose that others find either admirable or verging on stubborness, depending. With Scorpio on the DSC you are probably interested in a romantic partner who exhibits traits of emotional intensity and passion, whether this partner has any planets in Scorpio or not.

We might even learn some actual facts about your relationships by looking at your 7th house. For example, maybe you met someone special when Venus transited into your 7th house. Or maybe you had a nasty break-up when Uranus transited your 7th.

Keep in mind that a prospective partner also has an AC/DC axis. Let's suppose he has Sagittarius rising and Gemini on the 7th house cusp. He may be looking for someone who is versatile, witty, and a good conversationalist, regardless of whether she's a sun-sign Gemini. He may come across to you in typical Sagittarian ways: optimistic, blunt in speech, and a bit of a philosopher.

The best way to sort all this out may be to study the charts of people you know well (assuming you have correct birth times: otherwise you can't do houses.) You can also get celebrity charts off the Astro-DataBank at www.astro.com .

I think you're better off just forgetting the rest of what you wrote about the DSC. I couldn't follow it, and I don't think it is helping you. You interact with the outer world through your body and personality: these are first house matters.

Houses basically show domains or areas of your life: relationships, friends, money, career, and so on. This is the best way to start learning about them. We can over-psychologize the 7th house.
 
Last edited:

greybeard

Well-known member
I take the position that the Asc is "self", the Dsc is "not-self" and the axis (the tension produced by the polarity) itself is the dynamic relationship.

Also, the Asc is not just "inflow" but also "outflow". I submit that to consider the Asc as inflow only is in error. If the Asc is the "persona", then by definition it operates in both directions, and thus builds on itself as action propagates reaction, consequent new conditions, and then new action in response. This is how growth of the personality occurs. The Asc is "where we meet the world". On meeting the world, we find conditions, needs, challenges which must be met. We act. Our action causes some sort of change in what we have met which acts upon us, and thus requires us to answer.
 

Yanel

Well-known member
waybread, I think I can give an example of another person experiencing the AC/DC axis. So this person, a friend of mine, has an Aquarius rising and all the partners she met behaved like Leos. They didn't have Sun in Leo or even AC in Leo but yet I couldn't help but perceive them as full-blown Leos. The interesting thing is that on the surface they could see her Aquarian qualities but in fact her interaction with them was completely leonine. They acted like Leos and she acted like a Leo and the relationships had that main theme going. And at times she was frustrated that they were behaving in this and that way but I could see that on an uncoscious level she made them act even more as that zodiac sign. What she gave away to them was her Leo qualities and that was what she got from tehm - their Leo qualities.
 

waybread

Well-known member
I take the position that the Asc is "self", the Dsc is "not-self" and the axis (the tension produced by the polarity) itself is the dynamic relationship.

Also, the Asc is not just "inflow" but also "outflow". I submit that to consider the Asc as inflow only is in error. If the Asc is the "persona", then by definition it operates in both directions, and thus builds on itself as action propagates reaction, consequent new conditions, and then new action in response. This is how growth of the personality occurs. The Asc is "where we meet the world". On meeting the world, we find conditions, needs, challenges which must be met. We act. Our action causes some sort of change in what we have met which acts upon us, and thus requires us to answer.

Gosh-- we all know the saying,

"The objective of all dedicated employees is to thoroughly analyze all situations, anticipate all problems prior to their occurrence, have answers for these problems, and move swiftly to solve these problems when called upon. However, when you are up to your *** in alligators, it is difficult to remember that your initial objective was to drain the swamp."

When someone is learning about houses, I think it is best to consider their core meanings (like the ones that have been used for 2000 years) before getting into the swamp with some of the complications. However, here they and we are!

Greybeard, I totally agree that the ascendant shows "outflow" as well as "inflow". I used the expression, "how you come across to other people."

Also, above, I mentioned:

Because the ascendant is one of the major "me" points in the horoscope (along with your sun and moon) the opposite point on the chart, the descendant, can become a "not me" point; and it can show how you react to others in a one-on-one "me-you" relationship more generally.

The difference is with where I think Yanel was going with this, it that I don't see much particular "outflow" from the 7th where one-on-one relationships are concerned. (The 7th is hardly the only house where this could happen, BTW, the 10th house of one's employer, the 11th house of friends, 12th house of hidden enemies, and so on.)

To me the two real "outflow" houses are the first and the 10th, the latter also representing one's public reputation.

We have to proceed with some nuances here. 1/12 of the human population will have a 12th house sun, which is a definite "me" point. A dedicated Libra might feel most like himself when he is half of a couple.

Sometimes a 7th house planet or ruler becomes a disowned energy. If the person cannot incorporate its meaning fluently in her life, it becomes split off, surpressed, and pasted onto people who seemingly embody the unwanted traits. Alternatively, maybe a person with low self-esteem thinks s/he can't possibly emblemize the positive aspects of a 7th house planet, so these get pasted onto someone else as more of a hero (or heroine) worship. We can similarly see something like Neptune in the 7th living a lot of unreality (idealism or pessimism) about committed relationships, or Capricorn on the DSC for the soul who secretly thinks s/he doesn't deserve a fulfilling relationship.

Yanel, I am not sure how you would define "Leo". To me it is a fixed fire sign, taking on some of the lion's mythical qualities of pride and showiness: if well done, a magnanimous, generous leader; if poorly done a bossy, high-maintenance person who can't be happy without a constant stream of praise. Fire indicates qualities of initiative and action. I wouldn't specifically conflate Leo with the 5th "party house".

Just to complicate matters, there are people (like those with Neptune in the first house or Neptune aspecting the ascendant) who become chameleon-like, and tend to "become" what they think another person wants and expects of them. This eagerness to please can seem like Leo, because it can duplicate some Leos' eagerness to please so as to generate the requisite praise and appreciation.

So it is hard to say what is going on with your Aquarius-rising friend without seeing some horoscopes.

But it's great that you are actively working through these astro-problems!!
 

Yanel

Well-known member
My consfusion comes from what I've read about both points. And especially the DC. If the DC is a reflection, if the DC is what I direct in the outer world in order to reach somebody or even make him like my DC sign then why the AC is also considered something I direct in the outer world when I know that it is through the AC that the world gets in me. When I think of it, they have the same descriptions in astrology. I know they are parts of one axis and it is natural to work together but exactly how they work consfuses me. What is 'in'and what is 'out'. What people see in me? What I see in myself? AC is the interaction with the other people - the outer world, the DC is the other people AND how you interact with them - where is the difference? Because they are too similar to be understood as two opposite points.

Waybread, what you said about Leo, that some of them have bossy personalities that need a constant flow of praise, is what I meant about the partners of my friend. And she answered to them with the same leonine pride. A real relationship never occured. Now I understand why one of the 7th house themes is balance and the science of relationships.
EDIT: One of them had Neptune in the 1st house but I don't have the chart anymore.
 
Last edited:

waybread

Well-known member
My consfusion comes from what I've read about both points. And especially the DC. If the DC is a reflection, if the DC is what I direct in the outer world in order to reach somebody or even make him like my DC sign then why the AC is also considered something I direct in the outer world when I know that it is through the AC that the world gets in me.

A reflection of what? Now I am getting confused! May I ask what you are reading?

I suppose we could say that the DC is a "reflection" of your own mental image of the sort of partner to whom you are attracted. Put differently, the sign on your DC (Scorpio) indicates the qualities that you find attractive: for good or ill. For example, you might be attracted to someone with a lot of emotional intensity and loyalty, only to learn that he is jealous and vindictive. (Let's hope not!) Often GFs do try to reshape their BF into their own mental pictures of what they want in a man, but this really isn't such a great thing to do to another human being. It doesn't lead to positive relationships.

This will probably be more understandable if you momentarily just forget about the DC as "something you direct to the outer world." I could see how this works in the sense that, if you want someone who exhibits Scorpio sorts of traits, you probably send out certain signals when you meet an interesting guy who fits your pictures. But just to point out other "alligators in the swamp" here, a lot of romantic/sexual attraction operates via your Venus and Mars, and Mars is another major indicator of what appeals to you in a man.

Many astrologers believe that it makes sense to think of particular houses or signs via their polarity or entire axis. I've not been so taken with this idea unless someone actually has an opposition of planets or a planet plus an angle.

Let's keep in mind that a house indicates a particular domain or area of life, such as marriage, friends, or money. A sign indicates how or in what manner a planet or house operates. By sign element and quality: mentally, emotionally, adaptively, persistently, &c.


When I think of it, they have the same descriptions in astrology. I know they are parts of one axis and it is natural to work together but exactly how they work consfuses me.

Again, what are you reading? I have a sizeable collection of astrology books, peruse websites, and have participated on a lot of astrology threads, and I haven't seen the ASC/DC or first and seventh houses described as virtually identical. As I mentioned above, a really good book on the ASC + DSC is Jodie Forrest, The Ascendant. She shows how these two function in relationships. I just checked amazon.com and it is available there either as a paperback or as a Kindle book.

Picking up on Forrest's book: I have Virgo rising with Pisces on the DC (I don't know my husband's birth time, unfortunately.) My husband has no major placements in Pisces so far as I know. But I would describe him as being a sensitive guy, who is a lot more tolerant of people who behave badly than I am! Unfortunately, he is not very observant or detail-oriented, and I think that sometimes he drinks too much. So this is a blend (to me) of positive and negative Pisces traits. When he gets mad at me (a real astrological diagnostic!) he describes me as too detail-oriented and picky. He feels he can never do things good enough to suit me, and that I am puritanical about alcohol. So here is where he mirrors my Virgo rising traits back at me.

What is 'in'and what is 'out'. What people see in me? What I see in myself? AC is the interaction with the other people - the outer world, the DC is the other people AND how you interact with them - where is the difference? Because they are too similar to be understood as two opposite points.

Maybe just ignore this for a while. I would get confused, too, if I thought this was how the AC and DC operated. Unless people know you well, they probably will not see how you operate in your 7th house matters. There are huge differences between the first and seventh houses, so if you focus on those first, I think that would be helpful.

First house: your body, personality, how you come across to other people. To some extent, your receptivity to them.

Seventh house: your committed relationships, open enemies, what you look for in a partner.

Waybread, what you said about Leo, that some of them have bossy personalities that need a constant flow of praise, is what I meant about the partners of my friend. And she answered to them with the same leonine pride. A real relationship never occured. Now I understand why one of the 7th house themes is balance and the science of relationships.
EDIT: One of them had Neptune in the 1st house but I don't have the chart anymore.

I should point out that Leo isn't the only sign that can get bossy! Really, aren't we talking about control, or dominating a relationship? Most sun-signs can feel insecure as individuals, and if they play this out in a relationship, they can attempt to control the other person so that he provides the sense of emotional security she doesn't feel on her own.

And this is the kicker about the AC-DC axis. Take someone with Leo rising and Aquarius on the DC. She wants a stream of admiration. She's attracted to a computer geek. The more she seeks praise from him, the more he retreats into his abstract world, because this is a sign that needs its emotional space. The two get into a kind of backward dance: the more reassurance she demands, the more he retreats. Or take Cancer rising with Capricorn on the DC. She craves emotional closeness, and the true ability to meld with a lover. She takes up with Mr. Capricorn, a sign that is not emotionally-driven. The more she clings to him, the more he falls back on Saturn's emotional coolness.

No wonder the 7th is also the house of open enemies! It's a wonder that relationships work at all. They do when two mature people have their own internal self-confidence, and because other chart factors indicate how well two people get along.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Hi Yanel

Main Rulerships of the First House


QUOTE

Life, vitality and health.

Stature, colour, complexion, form and shape of body

Older sources note its influence upon the intellect, the way the mind works, and speech.

In general, the first house represents the focal point for the personality and manner of expression.

As well as describing the physical appearance,

the condition of this house and that of its planetary ruler indicates the level of personal vitality and strength.

Main Rulerships of the Seventh House

QUOTE

Marriage and all forms of partnerships.
The spouse, lover and person enquired after.

Business partnerships
and the legal contracts that pertain to them.


Watters notes that affliction of the 7th represents: "an open rupture in a partnership or marriage" ([JoE], p.65).

7th house indicates the opponent in any lawsuit or conflict
and in mundane charts shows the possibility of war.

All enemies that are known as such belong to Seventh House
(the 12th house warns of secret enemies but as soon as their existence is known they are represented through the 7th house).

Source:

THE HOUSES TEMPLES OF THE SKY by Deborah Houlding
FREE EXCERPTS viewable at
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h1.html
I would add that

it is always necessary (vital) to carefully study the lord of any house,
because the lord (dispositor) of any house
disposes
the affairs of that house
and any planets it contains.

The lord of a house (sign) has the Last Word in the affairs of the house (sign) and its contents.
Keeping in mind also the following advice when delineating Ascendant http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48463 provides a more in-depth analysis and leads to a greater understanding of natal chart :smile:

1. The good or bad signified by a house emanates from the ruler of the house.

This is the basic rule.
The ruler of the house is giver of the material of the house
.


Zoller gives the example of his own chart where he has Combusted Mercury in 11th, ruler of 4th.
He comments that this kind of placement brings adversity to ones home and dwellings.


2. Benefit in one area of life can be produced by adversity, or even conflict, in another.

Again Zoller gives example from his own chart.
Jupiter in 9th in Scorpio disposited from Mars in 11th: Wisdom coming from conflicts.


3. The delineation tells you the what. The
predictive techniques tell you the when.


4. The Elemental Quality of the Sign of the Ascendant is showing the type of Primary Motivation of the native.
Fire goes for freedom of action and power.
Air goes for freedom of expression and movement.
The Water signs need emotional security
Earth signs need physical security.


The person with masculine Ascendant (or majority of planets in masculine signs) speaks in active terms: "I did this to that person".

The person with feminine sign on Ascendant or majority planets in feminine signs, speaks in passive terms: "This happened to me".

The Feminine signs seek advice because they need second hand in their decisions, in fact they want someone else to make the decision for them.

Masculine signs seek advice because they have many options so they are not sure which option is better.

Cardinal signs are most active. Cardinal water and earth (Cancer and Capricorn) are working great amount of actions but in circumstances and environment structured already by someone else.
Libra and Aries (Cardinal masculine) are working great in any kind of circumstances.

Fixed signs are centripetal, they need center. They are very successful in Acquisations.
Taurus hoards money.
Leo hoards glory and honor.
Scorpio hoards the hidden things, hidden motivations of other people, seek energy and vitality.
Aquarius hoards Knowledge.

Mutable signs vacillate between the two: cardinal and fixed.


5. Examine the planets which most closely aspects the Ascendant. These planets add to the whole Primary Motivation thing.

Planets aspecting the Ascendant represent powers the native can use in the world.

The aspecting planet's local determination will be added to the Primary
Motivation.
(Venus in 5th will add love for pleasure and entertainment to the native's Primary Motivation).

The aspect between the aspecting planet and the Ascendant tells you how the being of the planet and its local determination are linked.

6. The Ruler of the Ascendant by its house position tells you where (what area of life) the native will seek to realize his/her Primary Motivation.

Look also at all 5 dignity rulers in the place of the ASC. The Almuten and Exalted ruler are lamost as significant as the domicile ruler (sometimes even more).

The Ruler of the Ascendant (as well as the other rulers) by its nature and zodiacal state shows the methods the native will use and the success or failure of the drive.

Lets assume that a person has Cancer on the Ascendant,
The primary motivation of this person is the Need for Emotional Security.
The ruler/s of the Ascendant and their zodiacal and local state will determine How would this be achieved.

Lets assume Moon on IC in Libra Peregrine.
Jupiter in 6th (but 7th sign!) in Capricorn.
Venus in Sag in 6th - Peregrine.
Mars in Scorpio in 4th (but 5th sign!)
Saturn (term ruler) is in 5th Scorpio Peregrine.

We can see that Moon is strong by accident (being on angle), so we can judge first from there.

The need for Emotional Security this person would seek in the home, in the place of the father.
The father would be the means through which this person would try to achieve the Emotional Security.
Jupiter - the exalted ruler is weak by being cadent, Venus too. They can't produce much in giving the emotional security this person seeks.
Jupiter by universal means suggest that the native would seek wisdom, religion (and the person actually did!) but by being cadent and in fall, it can't productively give what it promise.
Mars is in 4/5th and is strong by zodiacal state, but is out of sect malefic.
It would try to win competitions, but also with Saturn in 5th will give great deal of creativity. Mars rules the 10th - creativity and looking for career, would also give some amount of emotional security for this person. But by being square with Sun in 7th it means that it will have opposition from authorities and other people in general.

The primary motivation is great deal of what we unconsciously and often consciously seek for. Once that motivation is broken or someone interrupt it, we seek to fix that in the every possible way we can do that.

 

greybeard

Well-known member
You are working too hard and tying yourself in knots.

Stop. Take a deep breath.

Focus on the Asc alone. Understand it first. After all, it is the Beginning.
 

Yanel

Well-known member
A reflection of what? Now I am getting confused! May I ask what you are reading?

I suppose we could say that the DC is a "reflection" of your own mental image of the sort of partner to whom you are attracted. Put differently, the sign on your DC (Scorpio) indicates the qualities that you find attractive: for good or ill. For example, you might be attracted to someone with a lot of emotional intensity and loyalty, only to learn that he is jealous and vindictive. (Let's hope not!) Often GFs do try to reshape their BF into their own mental pictures of what they want in a man, but this really isn't such a great thing to do to another human being. It doesn't lead to positive relationships.

This will probably be more understandable if you momentarily just forget about the DC as "something you direct to the outer world." I could see how this works in the sense that, if you want someone who exhibits Scorpio sorts of traits, you probably send out certain signals when you meet an interesting guy who fits your pictures. But just to point out other "alligators in the swamp" here, a lot of romantic/sexual attraction operates via your Venus and Mars, and Mars is another major indicator of what appeals to you in a man.

Many astrologers believe that it makes sense to think of particular houses or signs via their polarity or entire axis. I've not been so taken with this idea unless someone actually has an opposition of planets or a planet plus an angle.

Let's keep in mind that a house indicates a particular domain or area of life, such as marriage, friends, or money. A sign indicates how or in what manner a planet or house operates. By sign element and quality: mentally, emotionally, adaptively, persistently, &c.




Again, what are you reading? I have a sizeable collection of astrology books, peruse websites, and have participated on a lot of astrology threads, and I haven't seen the ASC/DC or first and seventh houses described as virtually identical. As I mentioned above, a really good book on the ASC + DSC is Jodie Forrest, The Ascendant. She shows how these two function in relationships. I just checked amazon.com and it is available there either as a paperback or as a Kindle book.

Picking up on Forrest's book: I have Virgo rising with Pisces on the DC (I don't know my husband's birth time, unfortunately.) My husband has no major placements in Pisces so far as I know. But I would describe him as being a sensitive guy, who is a lot more tolerant of people who behave badly than I am! Unfortunately, he is not very observant or detail-oriented, and I think that sometimes he drinks too much. So this is a blend (to me) of positive and negative Pisces traits. When he gets mad at me (a real astrological diagnostic!) he describes me as too detail-oriented and picky. He feels he can never do things good enough to suit me, and that I am puritanical about alcohol. So here is where he mirrors my Virgo rising traits back at me.



Maybe just ignore this for a while. I would get confused, too, if I thought this was how the AC and DC operated. Unless people know you well, they probably will not see how you operate in your 7th house matters. There are huge differences between the first and seventh houses, so if you focus on those first, I think that would be helpful.

First house: your body, personality, how you come across to other people. To some extent, your receptivity to them.

Seventh house: your committed relationships, open enemies, what you look for in a partner.



I should point out that Leo isn't the only sign that can get bossy! Really, aren't we talking about control, or dominating a relationship? Most sun-signs can feel insecure as individuals, and if they play this out in a relationship, they can attempt to control the other person so that he provides the sense of emotional security she doesn't feel on her own.

And this is the kicker about the AC-DC axis. Take someone with Leo rising and Aquarius on the DC. She wants a stream of admiration. She's attracted to a computer geek. The more she seeks praise from him, the more he retreats into his abstract world, because this is a sign that needs its emotional space. The two get into a kind of backward dance: the more reassurance she demands, the more he retreats. Or take Cancer rising with Capricorn on the DC. She craves emotional closeness, and the true ability to meld with a lover. She takes up with Mr. Capricorn, a sign that is not emotionally-driven. The more she clings to him, the more he falls back on Saturn's emotional coolness.

No wonder the 7th is also the house of open enemies! It's a wonder that relationships work at all. They do when two mature people have their own internal self-confidence, and because other chart factors indicate how well two people get along.
I have read on several places that the 7th house reflects its energies on partners. It's just that, according to most sources, the house of signals is the 1st house and not the 7th. The idea about the 7th house being the reflection of your desires seemed logical and right but that's it, it's the DC, nobody talks about the DC because it's not the AC. Actually, the main astrological influences - the AC, the Sun and the Moon are the most confusing ones for me because there is so much information about them that is concentrated on the same things and everything is so obvious but when you think of it...it's not. When I try to imagine this triplicity as a part of the whole chart I realize that there is more absurdness and chaos than there are actual results. Today, for example, I stumbled upon an interpretation of an aspect of mine(again) - Sun square Moon. It was a long interpretation that said...nothing. Like even the aithor didn't know what he was talking about. Just words, words, words...one sentence written in many different ways without a meaning behind them(not for the first time). This is how I feel when trying to explain to myself the AC/DC axis. I think intuition is on my side but when I have to read something I can see that there are not many who understand what they think and write.

Nowhere is written that the Ascendant and Descendant are identical. It was my conslusion that there are too many similarities and just a few words are different - for the AC it's the 'the world around you' and for the DC 'the others'.

What you said about the DC is very accurate. It is what I, or any other person, "idealize" in their heads and hearts as their perfect partner. It is also what I think they would get - not always directly through planets and signs but through behaviour and cosmic fate.
I think I will follow your advice and stop trying to comprehend how AC and DC operate...for now xD. I will try to comprehend how they work on their own and I hope I will not be just as frustrated over things like before. Thanks for the explanations!
Hi Yanel

Main Rulerships of the First House


QUOTE

Life, vitality and health.

Stature, colour, complexion, form and shape of body

Older sources note its influence upon the intellect, the way the mind works, and speech.

In general, the first house represents the focal point for the personality and manner of expression.

As well as describing the physical appearance,

the condition of this house and that of its planetary ruler indicates the level of personal vitality and strength.

Main Rulerships of the Seventh House

QUOTE

Marriage and all forms of partnerships.
The spouse, lover and person enquired after.

Business partnerships
and the legal contracts that pertain to them.


Watters notes that affliction of the 7th represents: "an open rupture in a partnership or marriage" ([JoE], p.65).

7th house indicates the opponent in any lawsuit or conflict
and in mundane charts shows the possibility of war.

All enemies that are known as such belong to Seventh House
(the 12th house warns of secret enemies but as soon as their existence is known they are represented through the 7th house).

Source:

THE HOUSES TEMPLES OF THE SKY by Deborah Houlding
FREE EXCERPTS viewable at
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h1.html

Keeping in mind also the following advice when delineating Ascendant http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48463 provides a more in-depth analysis and leads to a greater understanding of natal chart :smile:

That is some very useful information! Thank you! It's actually one of the most descriptive I've read.
You are working too hard and tying yourself in knots.

Stop. Take a deep breath.

Focus on the Asc alone. Understand it first. After all, it is the Beginning.
I will try.. But I rarely focus on something and make an order out of the chaos. Instead, I look at several things at once and use personal sources of intuitive understanding that are not always enough.
 
Last edited:

waybread

Well-known member
You are working too hard and tying yourself in knots.

Stop. Take a deep breath.

Focus on the Asc alone. Understand it first. After all, it is the Beginning.

Yanel, I agree with this. Astrology is a very complex topic, but if you can't see a sort of logic to a particular problem, then move on to another topic that does make sense. After you've learned more, you can always go back to your earlier stumbling block.

It is important to recognize that there is a lot of bad and mediocre astrology out there, even by published authors. Some astrologers overly conflate signs, houses, and planets. This can make it difficult to distinguish between them. Some authors seem so obsessed by signs that it almost doesn't matter what house or planet you plug into the signs: the description comes out the same. As you study more astrology, you will become a connoisseur of what you read.

I like to think of chart interpretation as a sort of grammar. The planet gives the "what" or subject of the sentence. The house says "where" a planet operates, like a prepositional phrase. The sign says "how" or "in what manner" a planet operates, like an adjective or adverb. Then aspects are more like action words that tell you how two (or more) planets interact.
 

mdinaz

Well-known member
It is important to recognize that there is a lot of bad and mediocre astrology out there, even by published authors. Some astrologers overly conflate signs, houses, and planets. This can make it difficult to distinguish between them. Some authors seem so obsessed by signs that it almost doesn't matter what house or planet you plug into the signs: the description comes out the same. As you study more astrology, you will become a connoisseur of what you read.

I read a lot of descriptions and some are so verbose and pompous, filled with 1000 words of every bit of history, philosophy, psychology and overly-done interpretation as to make them completely baffling and useless. Start with very basic descriptions and slowly add to them as you work with them actively in interpreting charts. This may take months and years but it is the only way to really understand how they work. When you first learn to read you don't start with "War and Peace". Some astrology books and descriptions seem to begin that way.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Distinguishing between:

the effects of the planet

the effects of the sign

and

the effect of the house

is an essential basic first step for any serious astrologer



Begin with the planet, learn the significations
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/sun.html

Next learn the significations of the signs
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aries.html

Then the houses http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h1.html

Then apply those three basic steps :smile:

so for example

Determine the planet ruling the Ascendant and research its significations


Determine the sign ruling the Ascendant and thoroughly learn its significations


Ascendant is First House so study the significations of the First House

Do the same with the Descendant
 
Top