Hi again Astro.
i know you mean well but it's your opinion considering maddie's supposed abduction chart, and i insist on saying supposed 'cause nobody knows exactly that it's the correct hour to even think on an event abduction chart!!!
I'm not sure if it's that your not so conversant in the English tongue, but you appear to be misunderstanding me, as I am also having trouble deciphering your message, although I get the gist of it.
I don't mean well or otherwise, nor do I pretend to, I sought to have a go at interpreting the chart for the sake of my own interest, so in truth, my motives are purely selfish.
As I explained in the previous post, which you may care to read again, I told you that the event chart that I attempted to analyse was
not the 'supposed abduction chart'.
Let me offer you my logic upon this.
The time at which Madeleine was reported to have been discovered missing is at 9.45 P.M.
The time at which the phone call to the authorities was made by the parents is widely reported as being at 10.00 P.M.
So the events pertaining to the disappearance were occuring sometime between 9.45 and 10.00pm.
Now, what is interesting about this time frame, is that the ascendant changes signs, and we must consider what this may reflect about the nature of things that are occuring.
The chart for the phonecall, and indeed the very great majority of the time frame between 9.45 and 10.00 has an early Sagittarius ascendant, so we must consider what may have been occuring just prior to this, when the ascendant was in Scorpio, and conjoined the Moon in fall, because this means that the initiator of any action at this time would have been represented by Mars.
Now, I theorise, logically, that Madeleine may well have been abducted when the Moon was on the ascendant, and the diminishing degrees of Scorpio rose. I say this, because the Moon in fall upon the ascendant would be a fitting title for such a grim occurance taking place. When Scorpio was rising, then the initiator of actions at this time would have been Mars, the natural significator of predators, and therefore his target, Madeleine, would have been represented by Venus, the natural significator of little girls. So this makes sense.
However, the events in which the parents were initiating the action, both in discovering her missing, looking for her, and calling the police, then we see at these times, that Sagittarius was rising, and as such, the parents, initiating the action, are Jupiter, and the reason that Madeleine is then Mars, is because Aries rules the fifth cusp from the ascendant, representing the parent's child.
So you see, I didn't interpret a 'supposed abduction chart', I interpreted a chart set for a time widely reported to have been the parents phoning the police, and interpreted accordingly. However, I do indeed theorise that she may well have been abducted when the Moon was rising in Scorpio, for the sound reasons I have set out, but I have not attempted to interpret this chart, so I don't know what you mean.
you mean the official report and i say the official supossed right information, now other official report says that none of her parents was really taken care -as they said they did- of her... and her little brothers...
I couldn't make any sense of this. What is 'official supposed right information'?
but if we consider as right this event chart you analized at, why do you consider maddie's supposed house as being fitfh??? is she the daughter of the person who acted as the ASC chart, i mean the kidnapper??? cause you know well that the person who act in first place might be consider as the ASC...
The chart I attempted to analyse had Sagittarius rising, and was set for the time of Madeleine parent's call to the police, or at least the time at which this was widely reported to have taken place, meaning that it is the significant data The Powers That Be intended for us to look at anyway, as we have no other option.
The reason that I saw Madeleine as Mars in this chart, is because as the initiators of the action, her parents are the ascendant, and as their child, Madeleine is represented in the fifth cusp from the first. You really ought to know how to turn a chart if you're going to argue about horary.
The predator would not be seen in the ascendant of the chart that I analysed, because he was not initiating the action at this time, her parents were, but it can be suspected, indeed, expected, that the abductor performed his deed with Scorpio on the ascendant, for reasons already explained, and again I repeat, I never attempted to interpret such a chart.
but you said that the ASC represent her parents making a phone call to the police saying "where my daughter is"??? other mistake, cause they didn't ask that question but might have said "my little daughter is missing, help us to find her"!!!
What is the qualitative difference between these two questions. They both pertain to hoping to discover the whereabouts of their daughter, you're splitting hairs.
The fact is the parents were desperately wanting to know where Madeleine was at this time, so it can be taken for granted that the ultimate issue of the moment was 'Where is Maddie!?'.
two corrections to do; if the event chart is to be considered as right, isn't this chart describing rather the fears her parents felt at the time they were making the phone call or report to the police instead of describing maddie's abduction beginning and end as you did it???
In the event chart, Madeleine and her abductor can be found in the chart by turning the chart. The chart cannot show the abductor as the ascendant, because he was not intiating the action at this time, that had already been done, and probably with Scorpio rising. So there are no corrections to be made.
why not consider the event chart as describing rather the actions the captor/s made -at the time when they were abducting her- in the shadows, with no mercy for her or even her parents, etc, etc, etc-??? why not???
The event chart that I used can describe the captor as well as Madeleine, by turning the chart as I have said.
as you see i support the fact that the horary charts have been made before that abduction occurred are not the product of perverted minds, acting by pure morbid curiosity, for heaven’s sake, please!!!
The term 'perverted minds' is rather harsh, and I never implied this, I mentioned 'morbid curiosity', which I myself freely admit to possessing in abundance. In the English speaking world, the term 'morbid curiosity' is very much a cliche, so it may sound rather more vulgar to you than I had intended.
Why would anybody ask a horary chart upon the whereabouts of the girl,
before the abduction occured?
I already explained my reasoning to Futurist as to why I declined to try and interpret horaries upon this matter, and she was fine with it as my reasoning appeared sound. I'm not suggesting that you should not explore your own horary, I consider it to be obselete, in so much as exploring it myself is concerned, for logical reasons already given.
but i insist on this; you did not well at not considering the facts i remarked above... think about it, you might be the one wrong in this case, and not the morbid minds that may have sincerely asked so many horary charts all over the world!!!
I may well turn out to be incorrect in many aspects of my analyses, but I wasn't aware this was a contest. I do in fact hope to God that I am correct, and that she has been killed, because I dare not imagine what horrors she may be enduring if she should happen to be alive.
Should I happen to be incorrect, I will be delighted, because then I can review the chart and find out why, and then learn something from it that I'll never forget.
The very fact that 'so many horary charts all over the world', have been asked upon this issue, is why I consider that where an event chart is available, horaries upon the same matter are obselete, and it is only matters of personal concern that should be asked of anyway, because then the question is steeped in personal interest, and not, I repeat, value judgements and morbid curiosity. It is only the nature of the querent's interest that will be reflected in such horaries, and as the nature of the question is not personal, it ought not to be asked.
A paedophile who actually abducts children, and a mother with a daughter Madeleine's age, both asking this question as a horary, are going to give us very different charts, according to the nature of the each querents interest in this event. Think about it.
The trouble with your horaries 'all over the world', is that a third of them will give negative testimonies, a third of them positive ones and a third of them will be inconclusive, unfortunately, making it impossible to establish who was more significant, because the rest of the world will not draw the same conclusions, some will agree, some won't. So this comment makes no sense at all.
Furthermore, Futurists personal horary was interpreted by her to deliver a negative testimony, your's says, apparently, that she is alive and well and will return home (which logically is the least likely of all possibilities, and so would require several remarkably strong testimonies, particularly as your question was asked so long after the event). So how do you explain this? Is your horary somehow superior to Futurist's, and if so, for what reason? You have no more vested interest in the outcome of this event than she does (I'm sorry Fururist, I just need to make my point). By all means, try and interpret your personal horaries upon non-personal matters, it's good for practice and titillation if nothing else, but don't demand that others do so, nor claim that your horary is right, and everyone else's personal horaries that disagree, must be wrong - because they are all unsound horaries anyway.
I also wanted to mention to you, that the first thing to do before embarking upon any analysis of a horary or event chart, is to consider which outcome is logically more likely to happen. This is an essential part of the judgement, because if a matter is very unlikely to come to pass in any case, then we require stronger testimonies than usual, in order to deliver a positive outcome, and in the same way, if we already have discerned that an event is probable to come about, then we do not need so many positive indicators, if any.
In this case, we all know that when a young child disappears for so long, that the vast majority of the time, the child is either never found at all, or is discovered dead. Therefore, before even beginning an interpretation of the chart, I already knew that I was going to require a very strong testimony that she would be okay, and only a weak testimony that she was killed or lost, because this is the probability anyway. As it happened, the state of Madeleines significators are dire, making me very sure that she will not be coming back, on top of the greater likelihood that she won't anyway.
I could not read your horary in the AstroDiesnt forum, but if you would care to share your interpretation with us in English, then please do, as it's seems unfair that you are delivering so much criticism of my interpretation of the event chart, and yet you are not submitting your own horary analysis to be scrutinised.
The link to the chart that you provided has expired. I do not know where it is that people get these charts from or where they are uploading them, but all you get when you click on them is the orange box saying 'chart expired'. We get a lot of these orange boxes in the horary section. If anyone knows where these charts come from or where the upload is hosted, it might be a good idea to make a sticky to announce that it is not a good idea to use them, as they expire in no time, and this is annoying to both the poster and the reader.
I might point out Astro that it is a rule in these forums that a horary chart cannot be submitted for analysis unless the querent has first given their own analysis of the chart. So nobody can comment upon your chart anyway until you have.
I do wonder why it is that you attempted to provide the chart without your own interpretation anyway, seeing as you are so passionate about it.
First though, you'll have to read these messages from Mav and Radu:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/announcement.php?f=43